BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

Seriously?

Not only have police and Blue Lives sympathizers tolerated police killings but actively support it, even in this thread, saying things like "got what he deserved" "one less scumbag" etc. and quite a few comments that go farther, looking to violently "put down" protesters, etc.

And the law, meanwhile, grants immunity to police to engage in criminal behavior, so long as predating Pierson v Ray whatever criminal activity they were engaged in had not already come before a court in the past that convicted police of doing the exact same thing.

And best of all, armed vigilantes who engage in violence are fist bumped, thanked, given water, etc. by police

https://theintercept.com/2020/06/19/militia-vigilantes-police-brutality-protests/

even as they carry out murders

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/29/fact-check-video-police-thanked-kyle-rittenhouse-gave-him-water/5661804002/

Don't play coy.

So you believe that police are calling for intensified violence against BLM protestors?

Because that's what my post stated about BLM leaders (the links have been posted in this thread previously) calling for a war on police.

Are police posting on social media calling for an escalation of violence against BLM protestors?

BattleCorp

Overheal wrote: »

How many are actually done by supporters of the movement?

Again, the problem with saying that police killings are "lawful and justified" is Qualified Immunity. In most cases, the killings don't even get a trial because of QI, if the merits of the case don't pass QI there is no trial. So to me, with respect, you may as well be talking to a wall when you make this point, it's as good to say it's legal and justified as it was to bring up the fact that the Holocaust was legal and carried out with justifications.

I'm not saying all police killings are lawful and justified. I'm saying that most of them are.

What about the hispanic guy in the video a few pages ago who was charging at the cops with a kitchen knife. Was his killing justified?

Overheal

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The only difference between BLM and the Black Panthers is that BLM have a more marketing friendly name.

Users earlier were upset at equivocation between this movement and the civil rights movement. Similarly, it would be entirely unreasonable to compare BLM to the Black Panthers, which were a clear militia outfit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#:~:text=The%20Black%20Panther%20Party%20(BPP,October%201966%20in%20Oakland%2C%20California.

There's no direct comparison between the two. BLM doesn't appear to be, for instance, insisting on uniforms and open carry of rifles.

iebamm2580

Overheal wrote: »

The odds of being struck by lightning remain 1 in 700k afaik and my figures from the FBI are still correct. If you want to add all this superfluous toddler stuff though be my guest, just FYI I don't take any heed of it, you get upset at facts and statistics at your own risk.

am i missing something, 1 in 700k versus say 89 cops killed last year out of roughly 1 million, how are cops more likely to be struck by lightning?
Actually 48 felonious acts but the point still stands.

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

So you believe that police are calling for intensified violence against BLM protestors?

Because that's what my post stated about BLM leaders (the links have been posted in this thread previously) calling for a war on police.

Are police posting on social media calling for an escalation of violence against BLM protestors?

I believe it because I've heard it with my own ears.

https://thesource.com/2020/06/03/listen-nypd-orders-to-officers-about-brooklyn-protesters-shoot-those-motherfkers/

https://www.hotnewhiphop.com/nypd-officer-urges-cops-to-shoot-and-run-over-protestors-via-radio-news.111699.html

Overheal

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm not saying all police killings are lawful and justified. I'm saying that most of them are.

What about the hispanic guy in the video a few pages ago who was charging at the cops with a kitchen knife. Was his killing justified?

I understand what you're saying but I respectfully rubbish the idea that the majority of killings were in fact properly justified, though indeed being lawful because of Qualified Immunity short-circuiting otherwise ordinary due process for these cases. As a result and as an American my faith in the current law and jurisprudence is shaken when I can see for myself cops being let go by judges purely because of the doctrine, and not because what they did wasn't illegal.

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

The odds of being struck by lightning remain 1 in 700k afaik and my figures from the FBI are still correct. If you want to add all this superfluous toddler stuff though be my guest, just FYI I don't take any heed of it, you get upset at facts and statistics at your own risk.

The stats for deaths from lightning strikes in the United States for the last two years have been exactly 20 people. A significantly different figure to the 89 police officers killed in the line of duty. It would appear this lightning issue is a false equivalence.

TheFactMan

Overheal wrote: »

Users earlier were upset at equivocation between this movement and the civil rights movement. Similarly, it would be entirely unreasonable to compare BLM to the Black Panthers, which were a clear militia outfit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#:~:text=The%20Black%20Panther%20Party%20(BPP,October%201966%20in%20Oakland%2C%20California.

There's no direct comparison between the two. BLM doesn't appear to be, for instance, insisting on uniforms and open carry of rifles.

Yeah just as there's no correlation between black people suddenly killing police at random and blm movement .

It's all really convient really isn't it ?

Overheal

iebamm2580 wrote: »

am i missing something, 1 in 700k versus say 89 cops killed last year out of roughly 1 million, how are cops more likely to be struck by lightning?
Actually 48 felonious acts but the point still stands.

Double checked, 1 in 700k was a 2005 estimate. 2019 national weather service estimate is 1 in 1.22 M. So I will retract my comparison. That said, given that we are to compare 89 to 1M, can we go back and verify your claim that blacks are less likely to be killed by police, and what is your data for that, preferably from the same analysis year (2019)?

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

I believe it because I've heard it with my own ears.

https://thesource.com/2020/06/03/listen-nypd-orders-to-officers-about-brooklyn-protesters-shoot-those-motherfkers/

https://www.hotnewhiphop.com/nypd-officer-urges-cops-to-shoot-and-run-over-protestors-via-radio-news.111699.html

A couple of bad apples saying something over their radio doesn't equate to police making official statements calling for violence against protesters. But I'm sure you knew that already.

Overheal

TheFactMan wrote: »

Yeah just as there's no correlation between black people suddenly killing police at random and blm movement .

It's all really convient really isn't it ?

As unfortunate and tragic as the killing the other day was it doesn't follow that it makes BLM an organization synonymous with the Black Panthers in modus operandi or structure or manifesto.

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

A couple of bad apples saying something over their radio doesn't equate to police making official statements calling for violence against protesters. But I'm sure you knew that already.

Wow, so it doesn't matter then, boys will be boys etc

iebamm2580

Overheal wrote: »

Double checked, 1 in 700k was a 2005 estimate. 2019 national weather service estimate is 1 in 1.22 M. So I will retract my comparison. That said, given that we are to compare 89 to 1M, can we go back and verify your claim that blacks are less likely to be killed by police, and what is your data for that, preferably from the same analysis year (2019)?

A retraction from overheal im shocked. 235 black people killed out of roughly 44million vereus 89 cops killed out of 1m in 2019, those are the stats so now you can agree on the second part of my point. Actually less than 1m cops roughly 800k hard to get exact figure.

TheFactMan

Overheal wrote: »

Double checked, 1 in 700k was a 2005 estimate. 2019 national weather service estimate is 1 in 1.22 M. So I will retract my comparison. That said, given that we are to compare 89 to 1M, can we go back and verify your claim that blacks are less likely to be killed by police, and what is your data for that, preferably from the same analysis year (2019)?

You can spin what ever numbers you like the only ones that count are the ones that state that these killings are an extreme minority by police , and alot of them lawful and caused by the person that was interacting with the police,

You cant seriously believe that the entire us police forces is an evil entity out to solely kill black people? Because they aren't factually the majority of us police are good and do there best.

The numbers say you are lying .

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

Wow, so it doesn't matter then, boys will be boys etc

Did I say that?

Wonderful deflection by the way. Completely side step what I asked you and try to make me look unreasonable.

Show me where police officials have called for violence against protesters please.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

What about the hispanic guy in the video a few pages ago who was charging at the cops with a kitchen knife. Was his killing justified?

Overheal, any chance you could anwer this question please? You seem to have skipped over it when you quoted the rest of the post.

Overheal

iebamm2580 wrote: »

A retraction from overheal im shocked. 235 black people killed out of roughly 44million vereus 89 cops killed out of 1m in 2019, those are the stats so now you can agree on the second part of my point. Actually less than 1m cops roughly 800k hard to get exact figure.

I see the problem with your statement now:

Do all 44 million blacks have an interaction with police per year?

Overheal

TheFactMan wrote: »

You can spin what ever numbers you like the only ones that count are the ones that state that these killings are an extreme minority by police , and alot of them lawful and caused by the person that was interacting with the police,

You cant seriously believe that the entire us police forces is an evil entity out to solely kill black people? Because they aren't factually the majority of us police are good and do there best.

The numbers say you are lying .

This is a strawman argument of yours, not once did I say US Police as an institution was evil or intent to go out and solely kill black people

Will Justin swoop in to wax poetic about you being a liar? I'm guessing not :rolleyes:

iebamm2580

Overheal wrote: »

I see the problem with your statement now:

Do all 44 million blacks have an interaction with police per year?

no problem with my statement, twist how you like, my point was correct , you were wrong on both counts the lightning and when you argued t my point that cops are more likely to be killed in line of duty than a black person is to be killed by cops. We shall leave it at that.

BattleCorp

Overheal wrote: »

Double checked, 1 in 700k was a 2005 estimate. 2019 national weather service estimate is 1 in 1.22 M. So I will retract my comparison. That said, given that we are to compare 89 to 1M, can we go back and verify your claim that blacks are less likely to be killed by police, and what is your data for that, preferably from the same analysis year (2019)?

In the interests of fairness, I will also retract my figures. I counted the number of people killed by lightening where you mentioned people struck by lightening.

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

Did I say that?

Wonderful deflection by the way. Completely side step what I asked you and try to make me look unreasonable.

Show me where police officials have called for violence against protesters please.

I did, and you dismissed it because it wasn't sexy enough for you, or said from a podium or written down as a manifesto. Apparently Police acting their official capacity ordering other officers to shoot and run over protesters does not meet your criteria, so, I gave up.

Overheal

iebamm2580 wrote: »

no problem with my statement, twist how you like, my point was correct , you were wrong on both counts the lightning and when you argued t my point that cops are more likely to be killed in line of duty than a black person is to be killed by cops. We shall leave it at that.

If you can't see the problem with trying to equivocate the 2, yes we should just leave it there. Suffice to say I take no stock whatsoever in your misleading statement, as deaths of Blacks against the entire gross population of Blacks in the US is not meaningful in this context.

TheFactMan

Overheal wrote: »

This is a strawman argument of yours, not once did I say US Police as an institution was evil or intent to go out and solely kill black people

Will Justin swoop in to wax poetic about you being a liar? I'm guessing not :rolleyes:

You are implying it, your whole argument is how many black people have been killed by police , you support blm which believe the police are out to get them...

You never once give context to your numbers tho, how many of those "victims" reached into a car, went for the officers gun, attacked the officer ect ?

You count every black person shot by police as a victim regardless of how or why they were shot.

The fact still stands the us police by in large do a good job and do not go out with intent to kill black people at every opportunity , that is simply a lie.

Overheal

If you think I'm implying that it's entirely a failure on your part.

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

I did, and you dismissed it because it wasn't sexy enough for you, or said from a podium or written down as a manifesto. Apparently Police acting their official capacity ordering other officers to shoot and run over protesters does not meet your criteria, so, I gave up.

Hilarious.

You did nothing of the sort.
No need to get sore because your argument has no validity, you can always admit you were wrong, it's not a crime.

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

Hilarious.

You did nothing of the sort.

In fact, I did:

NYPD officers responding to protesters at Bedford Stuyvesant, Brooklyn’s 77th Precinct eerily suggested to the other officers at the scene to “shoot those mother****ers.”

Another officer barked to “run them over.” What sounded like an authoritative officer blurted, “Don’t say that over the air.”

Audio:

https://twitter.com/GwynneFitz/status/1267876164435091458?s=20

TheFactMan

Overheal wrote: »

In fact, I did:

That's it ? That's what you have ?... Balance your arguments please they are getting ridiculous your trying to condemn the entire police force off the back of a few tweets and a handful of individuals .

Balance your arguments and give your numbers context

For example you are ignoring what blm and there supporters or those influenced are doing to police like walking up and executing officers in broad daylight with 0 reasoning.

Officers are human aswell and they are currently under siege by masses of sjw and the media and BLM .

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

In fact, I did:

I asked for you to provide evidence of police officials (police chiefs, commissioners etc, people in leadership positions in police departments) calling for violence against BLM protestors. You posted something about some cops blurting out some nonsense over their secure radio channel. This is not what I asked you to provide.

Overheal

TheFactMan wrote: »

That's it ? That's what you have ?

That's but one example I chose to give yes. The left I will leave as an exercise for readers or those already familiar with examples from the thread.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm not saying all police killings are lawful and justified. I'm saying that most of them are.

What about the hispanic guy in the video a few pages ago who was charging at the cops with a kitchen knife. Was his killing justified?

BattleCorp wrote: »

Overheal, any chance you could anwer this question please? You seem to have skipped over it when you quoted the rest of the post.

Overheal, for the third time, any chance of answering the question in bold above?