BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

CarProblem

Carfacemandog wrote: »

The George Floyd protests began because of the George Floyd killing - this has happened many times over the last 10 or so years in the US

Have you a definition of "many"?

The stats around police killings have been posted numerous times on this thread (and have been ignored almost as many times)

- per 10,000 arrests US police kill no more black people than white
- the proportion of black suspects killed that turn out to be unarmed is no more than the same proportion for white suspects
- an unarmed person of any skin colour being killed by the police unarmed is very rare

You may ask why I used the phrase "no more" above. In some of the analyses the bias appears to be against white suspects not black. However I do not know if such differences are statistically significant so I'll state "no more" rather than less

To use your own words:

If you don't like that there's not much I can do for you

I am not trying to trivialise police killings, the ideal number of killings would be zero. I am just illustrating that the narrative repeatedly put forward is at worst outright lies, at best poor understanding of statistics

Hector Savage

Carfacemandog wrote: »

The protests literally started within 24 hours of George Floyd dying. If you don't like that there's not much I can do for you.

Here is an excellent podcast on the subject by Sam Harris.
Calm reasoned observations of the whole police/race situation in America.

Give it a listen.

https://youtu.be/vmgxtcbc4iU

Carfacemandog

Yeah, don't have a full 1 hour 53 minutes to listen to that. Perhaps you could summarise it to show why the protests/riots that began within 24 hours of George Floyd being killed, in response to George Floyd being killed, were unrelated to George Floyd being killed?

CarProblem

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Yeah, don't have a full 1 hour 53 minutes to listen to that

Have you 30 seconds to define "many"?

Chris_Heilong

Carfacemandog wrote: »

The protests literally started within 24 hours of George Floyd dying. If you don't like that there's not much I can do for you.

He means the BLM were ready and waiting for an excuse.

Trump had nothing to do with handling the rioting as they were state affairs, each city were responsible for dealing with their own problems, it was only when it seemed that some of them were not dealing with the problem Trump offered to help, many like Portland for example were being run by democratic leadership refused and it was not until the rioters began destroying federal property that Trump was forced to send in the Federal police. \the failing to get the situation under control is squarely on the leadership of each city.

mohawk

biko wrote: »

The person seen kicking the unconscious Trump supporter had been identified as Brittany S. McAlister, 29, of Washington, DC.
She was caught on viral video assaulting at least two individuals. She is a third-year journalism student at Howard University and works as a freelance journalist.

In the first assault caught on video later retweeted by President Trump, McAlister kicked an unconscious man on the ground after he was sucker-punched by Kenneth Wayne DeBerry, who was arrested and charged. She was holding a camera at the time.

Soon after, she sprinted up behind a woman carrying an American flag and punched her in the head before running away.

https://amp.thepostmillennial.com/exclusive-suspect-filmed-beating-trump-supporters-in-dc-is-a-journalism-student/

This is not a person who should be working as a freelance journalist.
A journalist should be telling the story not become part of it.
Media especially in the USA is already too partisan. Last thing world needs is more journalists with an agenda.

biko

Unfortunately journalists these days are often activists.
They are not neutral nor do they try to be.

During the summer there was a lawyer that shot a driver in the head, another activist.

People have difficulties staying centred, the opposition is always almost dehumanised.
And I think the news is helping pushing people out toward the fringes, simply because the journalists write with their own political glasses on.

I don't see a problem with a political journalist as long as they declare their allegiances. Wonder if they teach that at journalist school any more.

Gervais08

Are any black people in the US ever seen as guilty of a crime ???

There always seems to be protests, their criminal history comes out and there’s these naïve white middle class kids defending every last one!

They have no clue!

Carfacemandog

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

He means the BLM were ready and waiting for an excuse.

Trump had nothing to do with handling the rioting as they were state affairs, each city were responsible for dealing with their own problems, it was only when it seemed that some of them were not dealing with the problem Trump offered to help, many like Portland for example were being run by democratic leadership refused and it was not until the rioters began destroying federal property that Trump was forced to send in the Federal police. \the failing to get the situation under control is squarely on the leadership of each city.

If they were "ready and waiting" how come they had had plenty of protests/riots before that died off quite quickly? Because of a better response from leadership that wasn't attempting to emulate how a nation like China would deal with this kind of situation.

Trump was actively encouraging violence in the streets, has been a tively encouraging police brutality, has personally overseen the gassing of priests and other peaceful protesters, sat back as the police assaulted domestic and international journalists, has actively encouraged armed uprisings from his supporters, and has been actively encouraged his own supporters to be violent towards those they disagree with from the get go (and he'll pay their legal fees!). He has even been retweeting'White Power!' during protests/riots specifically related to race. Do you think influential people encouraging violence might lead to violence?

This is what happens when your entire platform is built on division, you get a divided nation. When your platform also frequently endorses violence, violence will tend to follow.

Trump had a chance to try and bring the nation together there, and in good time for the elections. But he didn't. In fact he did the exact opposite, which being Trump it was obvious he always would.

We've been hearing on this thread for months how these protests and riots would cost democrats the elections. They didn't, and quelle surprise that its now all one big conspiracy against Trump.

Trump has spent much of 2020 reaping what he was sowing in the years beforehand, it's as sime as that.

Carfacemandog

CarProblem wrote: »

Have you 30 seconds to define "many"?

"A large number of"

biko

Carfacemandog wrote: »

We've been hearing on this thread for months how these protests and riots would cost democrats the elections.

Trump increased among Hispanics and Blacks, but he lost White male votes.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/14/joe-biden-trump-black-latino-republicans
This is what cost him the election.
Why do you think black votes increased? Aren't they your victim category?

The BLM violence we see doesn't translate as reactions to police brutality, it's just angry people sucker punching opponents.
Most of them seem to be of the "punch a nazi" variety, there for the violence.

CarProblem

Carfacemandog wrote: »

"A large number of"

How do you define "large"? Relative to population size? Relative to crime rates per 100,000 people? A larger number of white people were killed unarmed. But you don't seem concerned about that?

FWIW latest stats I saw for 2019 were:

- 14 black people
- 24 white people

As at the end of August the last stat i saw was 8 black people

Also to note "unarmed" does not mean "did not pose a threat"

Note again: I am not trying to trivialise deaths at the hands of the police. I am merely pointing out that the actual numbers:

- (IMO of course) are lower than the hysterical media and fashionable hashtag followers would lead you to believe where the narrative is that innocent black people are being hunted daily by a racist police force
- do not indicate racial bias (this one isn't an opinion)

Carfacemandog

CarProblem wrote: »

How do you define "large"?

Occupy Wall Street, Occupy Oakland, Anaheim 2012, Flatbush riots, Ferguson, St. Louis 2012, NY re Eric Garner, Baltimore 2015, Sacramento 2016, widespread ones over the nation re Filandro Castilel and Alton Sterling, Charlotte 2016, Milwaukee 2016, Dakota pipeline 2016.

These are some of the many protests and riots during Obama's tenure that I was referring to, many of which happened during election years and many of which were related to police killing of minorities. If the poster I was responding to think riots occurring during an election year was a conspiracy against Trump then surely they will be consistency and apply the same logic to these protests, of which there were many. If they're being honest, of course.

No idea what the rest of your post has to do with there being many protests/riots prior to 2020. You may have misread my initial post, as I was referring to riots.

CarProblem

So you said earlier:

The George Floyd protests began because of the George Floyd killing - this has happened many times over the last 10 or so years in the US.

You then defined many as "a large number of". I then asked how you define "large" and asked why you're not worried about a larger number of white people

I took many times to mean "many times black people were killed by the police" - maybe this was an incorrect inference (apologises if this is the case - we've both wasted time)

You then posted this irrelevant nonsense:

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Occupy Wall Street, Occupy Oakland, Anaheim 2012, Flatbush riots, Ferguson, St. Louis 2012, NY re Eric Garner, Baltimore 2015, Sacramento 2016, widespread ones over the nation re Filandro Castilel and Alton Sterling, Charlotte 2016, Milwaukee 2016, Dakota pipeline 2016.

These are some of the many protests and riots during Obama's tenure that I was referring to, many of which happened during election years and many of which were related to police killing of minorities. If the poster I was responding to think riots occurring during an election year was a conspiracy against Trump then surely they will be consistency and apply the same logic to these protests, of which there were many. If they're being honest, of course.

No idea what the rest of your post has to do with there being many protests/riots prior to 2020. You may have misread my initial post, as I was referring to riots.

Anyway I've gone around in circles with enough people on this thread as they ignore stats and focus on feelings. So I'll leave you to it also

Carfacemandog

CarProblem wrote: »

So you said earlier:



You then defined many as "a large number of". I then asked how you define "large" and asked why you're not worried about a larger number of white people

You then posted this irrelevant nonsense:



Anyway I've gone around in circles with enough people on this thread as they ignore stats and focus on feelings. SO I'll leave you to it also

I can't help but notice you're again omitting a large chunk of what I wrote. Here it is in the interests of honesty, emphasis mine for the part you've snipped out.

"The George Floyd protests began because of the George Floyd killing - this has happened many times over the last 10 or so years in the US. The difference here is that the current president didn't know how to react outside of trying to threaten these people into silence mere weeks after being the cheerleader-in-chief for civil disobedience in the anti-lockdown protests, so they didn't go away."

So why do you think I would talk extensively about the frequency and handling of riots by Obama vs the handling of riots by Trump, if I was not explicitly talking about the frequency and handling of riots by Obama and by Trump?

So yes, many times in the last 10 years there have been riots. Following the killing of a member of a minority by police: Michael Brown, Alton sterling, Filandro Castille and Eric Garner to name some of them

Most of these took place in multiples cities. Some took place during election years. I don't recall anyone claiming it was a conspiracy to win the elections for republicans like the poster I was responding to was claiming the George Floyd riots are (a conspiracy against Trump).

I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you misread me, but you know this now so you're trying to create a straw man, because you can't refute the point that protests and riots - including those caused by police killing minorities - have been occurring for a long time in the US, and have like many things in 2020, been woefully handled by Trump who only has himself to blame?

MisterAnarchy

Hector Savage wrote: »

The sad thing is that so many of these people actually believe that Trump is Hitler/worse then Hitler.
They feel perfectly justified in doing this - years of the media misrepresenting him has led to it.

Only a few days ago Christiane Amanpour on CNN was comparing Trump to Hitler.

“This week 82 years ago, Kristallnacht happened. It was the Nazis' warning shot across the bow of our human civilization that led to genocide against a whole identity and, in that tower of burning books, it led to an attack on fact, knowledge, history and proof,” Amanpour said last week. “After four years of a modern-day assault on those same values by Donald Trump, the Biden-Harris team pledges a return to normal.”

Thats the type of garbage than CNN presenters say to try and shape the narrative.
Its as biased as Fox News .

Mic 1972

it's imperative that we keep the woke culture out of Europe and Ireland. It's a cancer, once it's in it kills the fabric of society

Carfacemandog

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Only a few days ago Christiane Amanpour on CNN was comparing Trump to Hitler.


Thats the type of garbage than CNN presenters say to try and shape the narrative.
Its as biased as Fox News .

Is James Mattis - a lifelong Republican, an army general globally known for his studious nature, and Trump's own appointee as secretary of defense - as biased as fox and cnn?

I'm just asking given he has also compared Trump to the nazis.

This is his full statement, emphasis is mine as I had also missed his explicit support for the protests. Edit - link: https://www.npr.org/2020/06/04/869262728/read-the-full-statement-from-jim-mattis

IN UNION THERE IS STRENGTH

I have watched this week's unfolding events, angry and appalled. The words "Equal Justice Under Law" are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand — one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values — our values as people and our values as a nation.

When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens — much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.

We must reject any thinking of our cities as a "battlespace" that our uniformed military is called upon to "dominate." At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict — a false conflict — between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to them.

James Madison wrote in Federalist 14 that "America united with a handful of troops, or without a single soldier, exhibits a more forbidding posture to foreign ambition than America disunited, with a hundred thousand veterans ready for combat." We do not need to militarize our response to protests. We need to unite around a common purpose. And it starts by guaranteeing that all of us are equal before the law.

Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that "The Nazi slogan for destroying us ... was 'Divide and Conquer.' Our American answer is 'In Union there is Strength.'" We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis — confident that we are better than our politics.

Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people — does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.

We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square [note: when Trump gassed the clergy outside their own church for a photo op] . We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln's "better angels," and listen to them, as we work to unite.

Only by adopting a new path — which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals — will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.

Deshawn

Mic 1972 wrote: »

it's imperative that we keep the woke culture out of Europe and Ireland. It's a cancer, once it's in it kills the fabric of society

That opportunity has well and truly passed. The virus of wokeness had taken strong roots in Europe and Ireland

Gervais08

Deshawn wrote: »

That opportunity has well and truly passed. The virus of wokeness had taken strong roots in Europe and Ireland

Just read the gender, multiculturalism and Anne Hathaway threads.

Ship has long since sailed on keeping sane!

nj27

Deshawn wrote: »

That opportunity has well and truly passed. The virus of wokeness had taken strong roots in Europe and Ireland

It's hardwired into the vast majority of popular culture media sources as well as academia and advertising, plus it is pushed on social media by 99% of the people that youth follow. Without a pre-existing opposition to it a lot of people will accept it due to the almost constant exposure you get from almost every source of mainstream content people consume these days.

Richard Hillman

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1329878933043515392?s=19


Look closer...... Where is he Directing his funding from? ActBlue.

Where did BLM get their funding from?
https://secure.actblue.com/donate/ms_blm_homepage_2019


Where did all of that BLM money go to?

8-10

Richard Hillman wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1329878933043515392?s=19


Look closer...... Where is he Directing his funding from? ActBlue.

Where did BLM get their funding from?
https://secure.actblue.com/donate/ms_blm_homepage_2019


Where did all of that BLM money go to?

actblue is a fundraising platform. It's like saying they both use GoFundMe except a version of it that is tailored to progressive politics

Richard Hillman

8-10 wrote: »

actblue is a fundraising platform. It's like saying they both use GoFundMe except a version of it that is tailored to progressive politics

It's fundraising for Democrats and Democrats only.

Sand

It's quite sad how mainstream politics in the US is just two mutually reinforcing grifts, demanding money from confused voters. Republicans running their 'Stop the steal' grift on one side, and Democrats with this 'Chip in now' grift on the other. Both sides duped into handing over money and they wont get anything significant that helps them in return.

y0ssar1an22

Richard Hillman wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1329878933043515392?s=19


Look closer...... Where is he Directing his funding from? ActBlue.

Where did BLM get their funding from?
https://secure.actblue.com/donate/ms_blm_homepage_2019


Where did all of that BLM money go to?

MontgomeryClift

Sand wrote: »

It's quite sad how mainstream politics in the US is just two mutually reinforcing grifts, demanding money from confused voters. Republicans running their 'Stop the steal' grift on one side, and Democrats with this 'Chip in now' grift on the other. Both sides duped into handing over money and they wont get anything significant that helps them in return.

Even worse is how many people here buy into the sham. They're still doing victory laps in the Trump vs. Biden thread because the Zionist war criminal has beaten the Zionist property developer.

Mr. Karate

Richard Hillman wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1329878933043515392?s=19


Look closer...... Where is he Directing his funding from? ActBlue.

Where did BLM get their funding from?
https://secure.actblue.com/donate/ms_blm_homepage_2019


Where did all of that BLM money go to?

The transition doesn't officially start until January.

Mr. Karate

Sand wrote: »

It's quite sad how mainstream politics in the US is just two mutually reinforcing grifts, demanding money from confused voters. Republicans running their 'Stop the steal' grift on one side, and Democrats with this 'Chip in now' grift on the other. Both sides duped into handing over money and they wont get anything significant that helps them in return.

The last hundred years here has been nothing but Fianna Fail and Fine Gael Govts. Ireland is as much of a two party system as the Us. You just have the illusion of choice.

1800_Ladladlad

The lad who defended himself is free.

https://twitter.com/crybabybtzzz/status/1329978403706073089