BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

WrenBoy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

What about the definition of racism I copied and posted does not apply.

And one last time do you believe math is racist and do disagree that everyone of all races can be racist?

I had always thought that racism was the definition you pasted, but that doesn't hold true in the world anymore. I refer you to my links.
Now people of colour cannot be racist towards white people, it is now being taught that math is racist, I don't agree with it myself but that doesn't matter, the fact is that concept is now being taught in serious legitimate schools in the 21st Century. Meanings can change over time.
That is what I believe Klaz was saying, that the meaning of racism has changed in recent times. You disagreed with that.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Everyone can be racist. And no math is not racist don't be so ridiculous.

Careful, those opinions would have you labelled a white supremacist in some people's eyes.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No it wasn't a mistake it was exactly what I intended to type. It was meant as a humorous take on your post about how you previously knew what racism was but don't anymore.

I even gave you a definition for racism in some other post. To help you understand again what it is.
Ho hum.

Ahh.. I assumed from the wording that I accepted racism or was racist myself.

Fair enough. Although, I've never been confused as to what Racism entails. I simply don't accept this wider degree of accusation as being based in fact.

The application of claims about racism is often agenda driven now, and designed to discredit others rather than any real belief that there's actual racism involved.

RobbieTheRobber

WrenBoy wrote: »

I had always thought that racism was the definition you pasted, but that doesn't hold true in the world anymore. I refer you to my links.
Now people of colour cannot be racist towards white people, it is now being taught that math is racist, I don't agree with it myself but that doesn't matter, the fact is that concept is now being taught in serious legitimate schools in the 21st Century. Meanings can change over time.
That is what I believe Klaz was saying, that the meaning of racism has changed in recent times. You disagreed with that.

That definition does hold true. Everyone can be racist.

I didn't ask what some crackpots say I asked what you believe
I'm going to keep trying until you answer some very simple questions.

Wren boy do you believe math is racist? Yes/No
Do you believe everyone can be racist? Yes/No

Some schools in America teach creationism does that give the theory any validity to rational thinking people. I certainly hope not!
Similarly with any wild claims about any people being immune from the potential to be racist. I would hope any rational person would dismiss such nonsense and disregard it as utter fantasy.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh.. I assumed from the wording that I accepted racism or was racist myself.

Fair enough. Although, I've never been confused as to what Racism entails. I simply don't accept this wider degree of accusation as being based in fact.

The application of claims about racism is often agenda driven now, and designed to discredit others rather than any real belief that there's actual racism involved.

I have no doubt that some claims of racism are agenda driven it does not mean there are not racists or racism in the world or in the more local context of Ireland.
Are you denying there are people who hold racist beliefs in Ireland and the world?

And it certainly does not mean racism is not something that all fair minded people should view as abhorrent.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I have no doubt that some claims of racism are agenda driven it does not mean there are not racists or racism in the world or in the more local context of Ireland.
Are you denying there are people who hold racist beliefs in Ireland and the world?

Of course not. There's plenty of racists anywhere, although just because someone holds racist ideas about white people, doesn't mean that they hold the same attitudes to black people. People, naturally, have their own biases (both positive and negative). Just as some people might be uncomfortable with another racial group (considered by some to be racist in itself), while others might be outright hostile or superior. Scale is important.

Racism exists. It always has and always will. In one form or another.

And it certainly does not mean racism is not something that all fair minded people should view as abhorrent.

I never said they shouldn't.

However, when the accusation is applied so broadly, it dilutes the impact of the claim.. Which is still a claim, and should be proven. Not blindly accepted. If we're still talking about fair minded people, that is.

WrenBoy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That definition does hold true. Everyone can be racist.

I didn't ask what some crackpots say I asked what you believe
I'm going to keep trying until you answer some very simple questions.

Wren boy do you believe math is racist? Yes/No
Do you believe everyone can be racist? Yes/No

Some schools in America teach creationism does that give the theory any validity to rational thinking people. I certainly hope not!
Similarly with any wild claims about any people being immune from the potential to be racist. I would hope any rational person would dismiss such nonsense and disregard it as utter fantasy.

Crack pots ?
The Hoover institute,
Bill Gates,
The Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre.
CNN.

Hardly "crackpots" as you say. Religion is very very different so i wont take that straw man thank you.
Answers are 1) No and 2) Yes. but my views are irrelevant. I also believe that BLM is a dangerous and divisive group. That doesn't make it so, people, corporations and politicians are falling over themselves to align themselves with BLM.
Similarly with the definition of racism no matter how many times we say what it means to us, its meaning in the real world has changed Robbie.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course not. There's plenty of racists anywhere, although just because someone holds racist ideas about white people, doesn't mean that they hold the same attitudes to black people. People, naturally, have their own biases (both positive and negative). Just as some people might be uncomfortable with another racial group (considered by some to be racist in itself), while others might be outright hostile or superior. Scale is important.

Racism exists. It always has and always will. In one form or another.



I never said they shouldn't.

However, when the accusation is applied so broadly, it dilutes the impact of the claim.. Which is still a claim, and should be proven. Not blindly accepted. If we're still talking about fair minded people, that is.

So can we agree that making negative assumptions based on a persons race\ethnicity is racism and abhorent?

RobbieTheRobber

WrenBoy wrote: »

Crack pots ?
The Hoover institute,
Bill Gates,
The Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre.
CNN.

Hardly "crackpots" as you say. Religion is very very different so i wont take that straw man thank you.
Answers are 1) No and 2) Yes. but my views are irrelevant. I also believe that BLM is a dangerous and divisive group. That doesn't make it so, people, corporations and politicians are falling over themselves to align themselves with BLM.
Similarly with the definition of racism no matter how many times we say what it means to us, its meaning in the real world has changed Robbie.

Bill Gates said maths is racist?

WrenBoy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Bill Gates said maths is racist?

Did you even glance at the links I provided you with ?
Ill just paste some of the text ..

"..the Equitable Math curriculum that is supported with a $1 million grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to The Education Trust Inc."
"The Equitable Math method of teaching consists of five "Strides." The first Stride, "Dismantling Racism in Mathematics," is the one getting the most attention from detractors.

The lesson calls for "educators to reflect on their own biases" and bills itself as "a collective approach to dismantling white supremacy." The Stride calls for teachers to avoid ideas that reinforce "paternalism" and "powerhoarding" and to continually challenge themselves to "incorporate antiracist practices" in their classrooms.""
"The screenshot making the rounds on Twitter is an image of the EquitableMath.org website that begins with: "White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when... The focus is on getting the 'right' answer."
That's followed by a paragraph that reads: "The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false, and teaching it is even much less so. Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuate objectivity as well as fear of open conflict.""

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So can we agree that making negative assumptions based on a persons race\ethnicity is racism and abhorent?

Yup, we can agree on that.

Although, making negative assumptions about someone not based on their race/ethnicity (due to other factors such as behavior, attitudes, etc), while they are a different race/ethnicity, is not racism.

stefanovich

WrenBoy wrote: »

perpetuate objectivity

How dare a mathematician perpetuate objectivity? :pac:

RobbieTheRobber

WrenBoy wrote: »

Did you even glance at the links I provided you with ?
Ill just paste some of the text ..

"..the Equitable Math curriculum that is supported with a $1 million grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to The Education Trust Inc."
"The Equitable Math method of teaching consists of five "Strides." The first Stride, "Dismantling Racism in Mathematics," is the one getting the most attention from detractors.

The lesson calls for "educators to reflect on their own biases" and bills itself as "a collective approach to dismantling white supremacy." The Stride calls for teachers to avoid ideas that reinforce "paternalism" and "powerhoarding" and to continually challenge themselves to "incorporate antiracist practices" in their classrooms.""
"The screenshot making the rounds on Twitter is an image of the EquitableMath.org website that begins with: "White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when... The focus is on getting the 'right' answer."
That's followed by a paragraph that reads: "The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false, and teaching it is even much less so. Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuate objectivity as well as fear of open conflict.""

A screenshot on twitter :eek:
Fúck sake that is your evidence.
Yes Bill and Melinda gates trust donated to equitablemath but to start linking all of the things they have said directly to Bill gates is a huge stretch.
:D:D

WrenBoy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

A screenshot on twitter :eek:
Fúck sake that is your evidence.
Yes Bill and Melinda gates trust donated to equitablemath but to start linking all of the things they have said directly to Bill gates is a huge stretch.
:D:D

Alright I can see now you'll latch onto anything to weasel away from addressing a point, a screenshot was taken of the curriculum and shared online via twitter yes, that doesn't change the curriculum. You can see for yourself.
https://equitablemath.org/

Heres the Dismantling Racism in Mathematics pdf Download.
https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf

But Im sure you'll discredit it based on the programming language used to build the website or some such nonsense to avoid the facts.

TomTomTim

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I have no doubt that some claims of racism are agenda driven it does not mean there are not racists or racism in the world or in the more local context of Ireland.
Are you denying there are people who hold racist beliefs in Ireland and the world?

And it certainly does not mean racism is not something that all fair minded people should view as abhorrent.

I think this is a very good example of the ridiculousness of some racism claims. The whole point of this image is that "whiteness" is a bad thing, and that it should be stopped, due to racism. Obviously the generalization that they've made is racism itself, but the bad traits of "whiteness" are things most functional societies believe in.



And don't bother claiming it's fake, it's from National Museum of African American History and Culture.

RobbieTheRobber

TomTomTim wrote: »

I think this is a very good example of the ridiculousness of some racism claims. The whole point of this image is that "whiteness" is a bad thing, and that it should be stopped, due to racism. Obviously the generalization that they've made is racism itself, but the bad traits of "whiteness" are things most functional societies believe in.



And don't bother claiming it's fake, it's from National Museum of African American History and Culture.

That is very specifically about the United states and no where does it say " "whiteness" is a bad thing, and that it should be stopped"
that is your very poor interpretation of it.

Edit: And if it did say any such racist nonsense I would condemn that too. OK

RobbieTheRobber

WrenBoy wrote: »

Alright I can see now you'll latch onto anything to weasel away from addressing a point, a screenshot was taken of the curriculum and shared online via twitter yes, that doesn't change the curriculum. You can see for yourself.
https://equitablemath.org/

Heres the Dismantling Racism in Mathematics pdf Download.
https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf

But Im sure you'll discredit it based on the programming language used to build the website or some such nonsense to avoid the facts.

Who is weaselling now wren boy. It does not prove your point that bill gates believes this or said specifically "Maths is Racist". :D:D


Because of free speech in America there are many racist organisations do you need me to begin posting their literature to prove racism exists and then to tenuously link them to many other groups in America.

WrenBoy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Who is weaselling now wren boy. It does not prove your point that bill gates believes this or said specifically "Maths is Racist". :D:D


Because of free speech in America there are many racist organisations do you need me to begin posting their literature to prove racism exists and then to tenuously link them to many other groups in America.

Robbie mind your back those goalposts are heavy.
Is there movement in academia pushing that Math is racist exist ? Yes.
Does racism by people of colour against white people count as racism? according to established institutional sources such as the ACLRC and CNN, No !

These 2 examples prove the argument that many more things are claimed as being racist today than before, to the point that calling something racist has lost meaning due to its malleability. It is no longer just the definition you pasted.
I've backed up my point.
Caoi Robbie !

Detritus70

The whole discussion about BLM vs White Power Lives Matter (more) is answered by this picture.
This shows which side of the discussion you wanna come down on and what kind of a person you are.
Because, if you're white, this is not about you!
It just shows that you feel threatened, inferiour and also quite guilty. Being confronted by this makes a lot of people very angry. Good!
If you feel this is somehow directed at you, even better!
At this stage you are probably angry and will dig your trench even deeper.
Some people just want to be angry and entrenched. They can stay in their sorry hole while life goes on.

RobbieTheRobber

WrenBoy wrote: »

I've backed up my point.
Caoi Robbie !

You made a specific claim about a named individual and no you haven't backed it up. Instead you waffled off.
Ho hum

WrenBoy

Detritus70 wrote: »

The whole discussion about BLM vs White Power Lives Matter (more) is answered by this picture.
This shows which side of the discussion you wanna come down on and what kind of a person you are.
Because, if you're white, this is not about you!
It just shows that you feel threatened, inferiour and also quite guilty. Being confronted by this makes a lot of people very angry. Good!
If you feel this is somehow directed at you, even better!
At this stage you are probably angry and will dig your trench even deeper.
Some people just want to be angry and entrenched. They can stay in their sorry hole while life goes on.

I can argue against anti-white arguments and people without being anti-black.
To say you are either Pro-BLM or a Nazi is just stupid.

To use your style of argument.Are you with Nick Canon here or are you a racist?

RobbieTheRobber

Detritus70 wrote: »

The whole discussion about BLM vs White Power Lives Matter (more) is answered by this picture.
This shows which side of the discussion you wanna come down on and what kind of a person you are.
Because, if you're white, this is not about you!
It just shows that you feel threatened, inferiour and also quite guilty. Being confronted by this makes a lot of people very angry. Good!
If you feel this is somehow directed at you, even better!
At this stage you are probably angry and will dig your trench even deeper.
Some people just want to be angry and entrenched. They can stay in their sorry hole while life goes on.

Spot on.
Most of the posters in this thread struggle to even admit racism is wrong. All well intentioned people should be able to admit that without hesitation or caveat but instead its always what about this, what about that.

WrenBoy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Spot on.
Most of the posters in this thread struggle to even admit racism is wrong. All well intentioned people should be able to admit that without hesitation or caveat but instead its always what about this, what about that.

No one is in favour of racism Robbie, but people are attempting to change what racism consists of to suit themselves, I've spent all morning messaging you about it. :rolleyes:

nolivesmatter

TomTomTim wrote: »

I think this is a very good example of the ridiculousness of some racism claims. The whole point of this image is that "whiteness" is a bad thing, and that it should be stopped, due to racism. Obviously the generalization that they've made is racism itself, but the bad traits of "whiteness" are things most functional societies believe in.



And don't bother claiming it's fake, it's from National Museum of African American History and Culture.

Jesus, anything you do is f**king racially charged according to that s***e.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Spot on.
Most of the posters in this thread struggle to even admit racism is wrong. All well intentioned people should be able to admit that without hesitation or caveat but instead its always what about this, what about that.

You really do love to make leaps of logic. You haven't discussed whether racism is wrong with the majority of people on this thread. You didn't with me. Except in your own head, arguing with yourself.

This is what I can't stand about your attitude. You take a discussion which was about perception and the application of the use of the term racist/racism... and you declare it's something else entirely.

"It's this and what about that", because people don't want to write you a blank check where you can burn whoever you want.. because they don't match your rather fluid viewpoints. Nor your desire to reinterpret what people say to justify the argument that you want to make.

wicklowstevo

TomTomTim wrote: »

I think this is a very good example of the ridiculousness of some racism claims. The whole point of this image is that "whiteness" is a bad thing, and that it should be stopped, due to racism. Obviously the generalization that they've made is racism itself, but the bad traits of "whiteness" are things most functional societies believe in.



And don't bother claiming it's fake, it's from National Museum of African American History and Culture.

if you take the opposite of each of those points of " white culture " it paints it paints a very grim picture of the world .

is that the world that thee organisations want ?

subsistence living ,anti work ethic, anti family, anti science, group think instant gratification and general panic and chaos .

although to be fair a lot of these characteristics seem to match more with black culture than white ,

wealth accumulation and lack of tolerance especially

Tombo2001

Yet another thread on the Current Affairs/ IMHO where White People (mostly white men) 'discuss' race.

I'd love to know what the OP means by "us normal people?"

Tombo2001

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Yet another thread on the Current Affairs/ IMHO where White People (mostly white men) 'discuss' race.

How do you know (apart from this being a forum based in a predominately white nation) that the posters are white, and better yet, white males? Many here could be white females.. or Asians or... whatever.

It's the internet.. and an anonymous bulletin system.. you haven't a clue to the gender/race/whatever of the people who post here, except possibly by how they've declared themselves, and that's hardly reliable.

Except, again, that Ireland is a predominately white nation. Perhaps you should be looking at a forum based in Trinidad?

Oh.. and it's a thread mostly about BLM.. for whom race is very important. so.. yeah.. posters will discuss race as part of the discussion.

nolivesmatter

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Yet another thread on the Current Affairs/ IMHO where White People (mostly white men) 'discuss' race.

I hope you're not here to tell people what they can and can't talk about based on the color of their skin. Because that would be racist.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

You really do love to make leaps of logic. You haven't discussed whether racism is wrong with the majority of people on this thread. You didn't with me. Except in your own head, arguing with yourself.

This is what I can't stand about your attitude. You take a discussion which was about perception and the application of the use of the term racist/racism... and you declare it's something else entirely.

"It's this and what about that", because people don't want to write you a blank check where you can burn whoever you want.. because they don't match your rather fluid viewpoints. Nor your desire to reinterpret what people say to justify the argument that you want to make.

What's with the fake quotes Klaz the thing you put in quotation marks wasn't said by me. So you make up a quote in a post about me making leaps of logic.

This thread has been used by may posters to drop links of violence perpetrated by African Americans. What has that got to do with Racism except to try and paint a picture of a certain race in a certain way?

I have to ask posters post after post to state racism is wrong.
Any violent acts I condemn regardless of the race of the perpetrator how many other posters on this thread can say the same.

Even in one reply to this same post you replied to, another poster couldn't admit racism was wrong but instead accused me of saying they were promoting racism. something I have never said.

I know there are people who hold racist views who post in this thread everyone knows it, so when I encounter posters playing whataboutism to deny examples of racism I ask straight out. Is racism acceptable. If that question makes you uncomfortable to answer then the problem is not me!