BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

It's amazing that people keep saying it isn't taught, or widely known that black slave traders were involved in the slave trade.

Yet we all know it. Can someone explain that one to me?

I know it is is taught, however you said referring to black slave traders is a 'distraction'.

Brian? wrote: »

My point again is: slavery was terrible. Everyone involved is to blame. Saying "well the black lads did it too" is a distraction because we all know that it and it doesn't absolve anyone of blame.

I was responding to a post that said slaves were sold by "their own people". They weren't.

Neither "white people" nor "black people" are an homogenous group.

African American people have legitimate grievances with the system that made them. Pointing out that black people sold their ancestors is a complete distraction, because the people pointing it out believe they don't have any legitimate grievances.

Using a practice that ended in 1865 as a reason for ones modern day ills is ridiculous. That doesn't mean modern grievances don't exist, but they don't exist due to slavery.

Cordell

Brian? wrote: »

African American people have legitimate grievances with the system that made them. Pointing out that black people sold their ancestors is a complete distraction, because the people pointing it out believe they don't have any legitimate grievances.

No they don't. Slavery ended long ago, it was perpetrated by people that have been dead for a long time. There's no slavery anymore and no institutional racism anymore. African americans are their own masters now and in control of their own lives. It's not the whites that are to blame for their problems i.e. high criminality and high rate of single mothers that lead to most of their other problems.

I know this might sound outrageous, but black people born in America should be grateful that they were born in America and not in Africa, and this was made possible by slavery.

Brian?

It is absolutely ludicrous to believe that 300 years of people being considered property, followed by another 100 years that criminalised race, which only ended 60 years ago has no bearing.

I don't believe African Americans can blame everything on slavery or pre civil rights discriminatory laws. But it is absolutely ridiculous to just dismiss them as something that's over now so they are no longer relevant.

I'm 42. When my Father was a teenager it was illegal for a Black man to marry a white woman and vice versa. People who broke that law are still alive today. This isn't ancient history.

Of course African Americans have personal responsibility, they should absolutely not wallow in victimhood. Everyone does. But this ludicrous dismissal of historical context does no one any good either.


The only people I ever see bring up black slave traders, or Irish indentured servants shipped to America are people who want to dismiss the legitimate grievances that exist today. "It's their own faulty, they should just get over all that stuff that created the society they live in."

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

It is absolutely ludicrous to believe that 300 years of people being considered property, followed by another 100 years that criminalised race, which only ended 60 years ago has no bearing.

I don't believe African Americans can blame everything on slavery or pre civil rights discriminatory laws. But it is absolutely ridiculous to just dismiss them as something that's over now so they are no longer relevant.

I'm 42. When my Father was a teenager it was illegal for a Black man to marry a white woman and vice versa. People who broke that law are still alive today. This isn't ancient history.

Of course African Americans have personal responsibility, they should absolutely not wallow in victimhood. Everyone does. But this ludicrous dismissal of historical context does no one any good either.


The only people I ever see bring up black slave traders, or Irish indentured servants shipped to America are people who want to dismiss the legitimate grievances that exist today. "It's their own faulty, they should just get over all that stuff that created the society they live in."

How long should it be relevant for?

What rights would you like black people to have that they don't?

What opportunities are not afforded to black people?

Should we give more opportunities to black people than we give to others because of their skin colour?

Should we hold a collective guilt because of white people's involvement in slavery?

Or should we just accept that slavery was wrong, it has ended and we should treat all people equally with regards to the colour of their skin?

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

It is absolutely ludicrous to believe that 300 years of people being considered property, followed by another 100 years that criminalised race, which only ended 60 years ago has no bearing.

I don't believe African Americans can blame everything on slavery or pre civil rights discriminatory laws. But it is absolutely ridiculous to just dismiss them as something that's over now so they are no longer relevant.

I'm 42. When my Father was a teenager it was illegal for a Black man to marry a white woman and vice versa. People who broke that law are still alive today. This isn't ancient history.

Of course African Americans have personal responsibility, they should absolutely not wallow in victimhood. Everyone does. But this ludicrous dismissal of historical context does no one any good either.


The only people I ever see bring up black slave traders, or Irish indentured servants shipped to America are people who want to dismiss the legitimate grievances that exist today. "It's their own faulty, they should just get over all that stuff that created the society they live in."

Jim Crow laws /= Slavery. You have suggested bringing up black slave traders is a 'distraction'. However, if slavery is still relevant to the grievances that black people in America have then the existence of black slave traders is de facto relevant as such people were part and parcel of the 'system' that led to black people being in America today.

I suggest that slavery has little to nothing to do with modern day grievances that exist for Black people in America today, so all talk of Black slave traders, or the Atlantic slave trade etc. is ultimately irrelevant.

Cordell

I'm 42. When my Father was a teenager it was illegal for a Black man to marry a white woman and vice versa. People who broke that law are still alive today. This isn't ancient history.

Right. People that made that law are probably dead. No one to punish anymore.
People that were banned to marry each other have moved on (or are also dead). Nothing to fix anymore.
So let's move on with our lives. There is nothing to be done about the past other that learn from it and we have done that. There is no need to feel guilty or to look for reparations because there is none. Especially here in Ireland.

Brian?

Deleted User wrote: »

How long should it be relevant for?

What rights would you like black people to have that they don't?

What opportunities are not afforded to black people?

Should we give more opportunities to black people than we give to others because of their skin colour?

Should we hold a collective guilt because of white people's involvement in slavery?

Or should we just accept that slavery was wrong, it has ended and we should treat all people equally with regards to the colour of their skin?

You are arguing with things I never said as usual, if you keep it up I won't bother responding you anymore.

Do you agree or disagree with what I actually posted? It was pretty clear IMO, but if you would like some clarification I would be glad to help.

Brian?

Cordell wrote: »

Right. People that made that law are probably dead. No one to punish anymore.
People that were banned to marry each other have moved on (or are also dead). Nothing to fix anymore.
So let's move on with our lives. There is nothing to be done about the past other that learn from it and we have done that. There is no need to feel guilty or to look for reparations because there is none. Especially here in Ireland.

So let's ignore the historical context that lead to the current issues in the US that spawned the BLM movement and dismiss them?

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

So let's ignore the historical context that lead to the current issues in the US that spawned the BLM movement and dismiss them?

What about slavery caused Chauvin to kneel on the neck of a drug addicted criminal?

(BLM as it stands is undoubtedly spawned by that incident)

Brian?

Hhhhh wrote: »

Jim Crow laws /= Slavery. You have suggested bringing up black slave traders is a 'distraction'. However, if slavery is still relevant to the grievances that black people in America have then the existence of black slave traders is de facto relevant as such people were part and parcel of the 'system' that led to black people being in America today.

I suggest that slavery has little to nothing to do with modern day grievances that exist for Black people in America today, so all talk of Black slave traders, or the Atlantic slave trade etc. is ultimately irrelevant.

I have explained why I think it's a distraction twice now. It's only ever brought up by people who don't believe African Americans have anything to complain about.

Brian?

Deleted User wrote: »

What about slavery caused Chauvin to kneel on the neck of a drug addicted criminal?

(BLM as it stands is undoubtedly spawned by that incident)

Is that a serious question?

Mic 1972

Brian? wrote: »

It is absolutely ludicrous to believe that 300 years of people being considered property, followed by another 100 years that criminalised race, which only ended 60 years ago has no bearing.

I don't believe African Americans can blame everything on slavery or pre civil rights discriminatory laws. But it is absolutely ridiculous to just dismiss them as something that's over now so they are no longer relevant.

I'm 42. When my Father was a teenager it was illegal for a Black man to marry a white woman and vice versa. People who broke that law are still alive today. This isn't ancient history.

Of course African Americans have personal responsibility, they should absolutely not wallow in victimhood. Everyone does. But this ludicrous dismissal of historical context does no one any good either.


The only people I ever see bring up black slave traders, or Irish indentured servants shipped to America are people who want to dismiss the legitimate grievances that exist today. "It's their own faulty, they should just get over all that stuff that created the society they live in."

70 years ago Europeans were bombing cities and killing each other.
Do we bear any resentment to the descendant of Germans for starting the war?
We don't, we moved on, Germans are lovely people and have no responsibility for that happened 70 years ago.



My parents suffered the consequences of the war and have no resentment whatsoever to Germans. A lesson to learn for younger self-entitled generations

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

You are arguing with things I never said as usual, if you keep it up I won't bother responding you anymore.

Do you agree or disagree with what I actually posted? It was pretty clear IMO, but if you would like some clarification I would be glad to help.

Nothing in my post was an argument.

It was simply questions.

You didn't answer any.

Cordell

Brian? wrote: »

So let's ignore the historical context that lead to the current issues in the US that spawned the BLM movement and dismiss them?

The thing is that we are ignoring the current context that leads to almost all violent deaths of black people in America.
Most of black people that are killed are killed by other black people that are not cops. This is the big problem that can be made better, not the past that is in the past.

Mic 1972

Brian? wrote: »

So let's ignore the historical context that lead to the current issues in the US that spawned the BLM movement and dismiss them?

Also, let's ignore that black people in Europe are the result of voluntary migration from Africa and weren't deported against their will as slaves.

Europe provides for hundreds of thousands of migrants every year and we still get to be called racist and oppressors

Brian?

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing in my post was an argument.

It was simply questions.

You didn't answer any.

Why did you ask me the questions? I have no interest in answering them because I don't believe my answers will change anything for you. You'll just come up with more questions that have nothing to do with what I said.

If you quote my post, surely you should be responding to the post.

Brian?

Cordell wrote: »

The thing is that we are ignoring the current context that leads to almost all violent deaths of black people in America.
Most of black people that are killed are killed by other black people that are not cops. This is the big problem that can be made better, not the past that is in the past.

Who is ignoring that?

Brian?

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Also, let's ignore that black people in Europe are the result of voluntary migration from Africa and weren't deported against their will as slaves.

Europe provides for hundreds of thousands of migrants every year and we still get to be called racist and oppressors

How is this a response to my post?

Cordell

Brian? wrote: »

Who is ignoring that?

Well most of the media and definitely most of the Antifa and BLM.
If not ignoring then overshadowing it by discussing the killing of George Floyd much more that it deserves. Even this thread is proof that the most irrelevant problem gets the most discussions.

Brian?

Cordell wrote: »

Well most of the media and definitely most of the Antifa and BLM.
If not ignoring then overshadowing it by discussing the killing of George Floyd much more that it deserves. Even this thread is proof that the most irrelevant problem gets the most discussions.

Ok, that's a reasonable point. I don't think your use of "we" was entirely appropriate there.

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

Is that a serious question?

Absolutely.

BLM used George Floyd as an example of racism and was pretty much their mascot during their ascent into the limelight.

There was nothing racist about that incident.

Mic 1972

Brian? wrote: »

How is this a response to my post?

Europe is starting to face similar problems as the US with regards to black communities, ghettos and crime.
but Europe didn't deport Africans, so what's the excuse for this to happen in Europe too?

Brian?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Absolutely.

BLM used George Floyd as an example of racism and was pretty much their mascot during their ascent into the limelight.

There was nothing racist about that incident.

If that's your argument I would suggest there was nothing serious about the question.

Cordell

Brian? wrote: »

Ok, that's a reasonable point. I don't think your use of "we" was entirely appropriate there.

But it was We were debating historical slavery and outdated marriage laws in the context of BLM i.e. black people having their life violently taken.

biko

Brian? wrote: »

Even when Europeans made the problem exponentially worse?

What do you mean?
Are you saying the European slave trade was larger than the Arab slave trade? Or worse some other way?

The American and European slave trades were a piss in the ocean compared to the Arab slave trade.

The Arab Muslim slave trade also known as the trans-Saharan trade or Eastern slave trade is billed as the longest, having happened for more than 1300 years while taking millions of Africans away from their continent to work in foreign land in the most inhumane conditions.

“The Arabs raided sub-Saharan Africa for thirteen centuries without interruption. Most of the millions of men they deported have disappeared as a result of inhuman treatment. This painful page in the history of black people has apparently not been completely turned,” read a loosely translated excerpt from The Veiled Genocide a book by Tidiane N'Diaye, a Franco-Senegalese author and anthropologist.

While European merchants were interested in strongly built young men as labourers in their farms, the Arab merchants were more focused on concubinage capturing women and girls who were turned into sex slaves while living in harems.

https://www.fairplanet.org/dossier/beyond-slavery/forgotten-slavery-the-arab-muslim-slave-trade/

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

I have explained why I think it's a distraction twice now. It's only ever brought up by people who don't believe African Americans have anything to complain about.

Yes, but your explanation doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If slavery is partly to blame for the situation some black Americans find themselves in 160 years after its abolition, then mentioning black slave traders is not a 'distraction' if those black slave traders are partly to blame for the 'system' that led said black Americans to their current prediciment.

Brian?

biko wrote: »

What do you mean?
Are you saying the European slave was larger than the Arab slave trade? Or worse some other way?






https://www.fairplanet.org/dossier/beyond-slavery/forgotten-slavery-the-arab-muslim-slave-trade/

The American and European slave trades were a piss in the ocean compared to the Arab slave trade.

Another distraction. We are discussing the influence of slavery on African American culture and how it influence the BLM movement.


We are not doing an African slavery lesson.

Mic 1972

biko wrote: »

The American and European slave trades were a piss in the ocean compared to the Arab slave trade.

Let's not forget African slavery was already in place in Africa before Europeans arrived and started to trade with African slave owners.
it's still going to this day

Brian?

Hhhhh wrote: »

Yes, but your explanation doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If slavery is partly to blame for the situation some black Americans find themselves in 160 years after its abolition, then mentioning black slave traders is not a 'distraction' if those black slave traders are partly to blame for the 'system' that led said black Americans to their current prediciment.

Again. The people who bring it up don't believe a problem exists in the first place. So they bring up black slave traders as a distraction.

I am happy to debate the causes of a problem as long as it's done in good faith. Not if people are just trying to distract and deflect.


Case I point, a short history about Arab slave traders I didn't need.

Mic 1972

Brian? wrote: »

Another distraction. We are discussing the influence of slavery on African American culture and how it influence the BLM movement.


We are not doing an African slavery lesson.

The BLM movement is influenced by the Social Marxism ideology.
Slavery fits into the narrative, that's all