BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

biko

Minneapolis, Seattle, Chicago and NYC should give their police a paid 2 weeks off to show how smoothly their Democrat cities would run.
If that fails the Democrats should resign and let the adults take over.

Overheal

biko wrote: »

Minneapolis, Seattle, Chicago and NYC should give their police a paid 2 weeks off to show how smoothly their Democrat cities would run.
If that fails the Democrats should resign and let the adults take over.

That's not a realistic nor constructive proposal.

Carfacemandog

Overheal wrote: »

That's not a realistic nor constructive proposal.

It also makes zero sense - who is proposing to eliminate police departments entirely while also not reducing their budgets at all to put into other areas? Nobody.

If they are referring to calls to defund or abolish police departments, it has already been pointed out that both Camden and Newark in New Jersey did this the guys of a decade ago and saw dramatic improvements, with major crimes down 41% and 51% respectively.

Slowyourrole

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Jesus man let it go, you are clearly wrong. Calling it a 'through road' even though there is a sign outside that entrance saying private do not enter.:rolleyes:

I didn't say it wasn't a private street. That isn't disputed. You've been trying to frame it like a driveway when in fact it is a very long through road about a block away from where they were heading to protest outside the mayor's home. You can certainly argue they shouldn't have cut through the road but you didn't. You said they were there to destroy a nice house. You haven't retracted that yet.

Foxtrol wrote: »

This shouldn't be the way things are but the problem is that very few cops treat bad cops as their enemy, and when they do they get chased off the force. How do you trust a group that again and again lies to defend their 'bad apples' and fights any attempt to improve accountability?

Who do you think arrests most of the cops who get prosecuted for things?

Tell me how

biko wrote: »

Minneapolis, Seattle, Chicago and NYC should give their police a paid 2 weeks off to show how smoothly their Democrat cities would run.
If that fails the Democrats should resign and let the adults take over.

This reads like a proposal from a child.

Overheal

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Who do you think arrests most of the cops who get prosecuted for things?

A decent amount of the time it's Internal Affairs or FBI... it depends on the offense. Cops arresting other cops has never been a great outcome for the cops arresting the cops: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-sb-jane-watts-miami-case-20170208-story.html

biko

Carfacemandog wrote: »

It also makes zero sense - who is proposing to eliminate police departments entirely while also not reducing their budgets at all to put into other areas? Nobody.

Except MPD150, endorsed by Minneapolis City Council.
Picture from https://www.mpd150.com/about/

Tell me how wrote: »

This reads like a proposal from a child.

Yes, the above drawing is indeed like the imaginings of a child.

Carfacemandog/Tell me how
Or do you endorse MPD150 police free vision?
It sounds like you don't.

Carfacemandog

biko wrote: »

Except MPD150, endorsed by Minneapolis City Council.

Please quote where they have said they want to achieve this while not cutting police budgets or reducing the pay of any officers. Because from reading your link, it doesn't sound like it says what you are claiming:

"Dismantling the police will require reallocating their budget and assets to support real solutions to community desperation: good, well-paying jobs, affordable housing, healthy food, empowering education, accessible health care, removal of toxins, etc."

Overheal

biko wrote: »

Except MPD150, endorsed by Minneapolis City Council.
Picture from https://www.mpd150.com/about/

[IMG]https://www.mpd150.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/comic-v2-1024x791.jpg Yes, the above drawing is indeed like the imaginings of a child. Carfacemandog/Tell me how Or do you endorse MPD150 police free vision? It sounds like you don't.[/img]

"the replacement of its emergency intervention functions with models not based on military methods"

Sounds more like Irish and British policing than zero policing. De-militarization away from this this and this.

WrenBoy

Overheal wrote: »

"the replacement of its emergency intervention functions with models not based on military methods"

Sounds more like Irish and British policing than zero policing. De-militarization away from this, this and this.

Good luck being a cop in America with a taser, baton and pepper spray.

Foxtrol

WrenBoy wrote: »

Good luck being a cop in America with a taser, baton and pepper spray.

How many guns are required when tracking down kids mitching from school, dealing with noise complaints, domestic or mental health situations when no weapon is reported?

Even cops themselves admit they shouldn't be doing and aren't suited/trained for a lot of the work they are asked to do.

WrenBoy

Foxtrol wrote: »

How many guns are required when tracking down kids mitching from school, dealing with noise complaints, domestic or mental health situations when no weapon is reported?

Even cops themselves admit they shouldn't be doing and aren't suited/trained for a lot of the work they are asked to do.

And if they come across a armed robbery or shooting whilst out on patrol due to the fact almost anyone can have gun in America ? What then? Under equipping the cops in America will only result in more dead cops. Better training and standards are the solution imo.

Overheal

de-militarizing the cops doesn't necessarily mean the exclusion of a service weapon. It deals largely with the distancing from military tactics, primarily which is based on the assumption that everyone you meet is a potential combatant and there's an IED around every corner.

Quantum Erasure

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Jesus man let it go, you are clearly wrong. Calling it a 'through road' even though there is a sign outside that entrance saying private do not enter.:rolleyes:

Did the mayor not live on the same private road?

Overheal

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Did the mayor not live on the same private road?

This was the scene at the Mayors home.

https://www.kmov.com/raw-hundreds-gather-outside-st-louis-mayor-lyda-krewsons-house-demanding-her-resignation/video_0aaf76c2-2b50-5379-a461-5b8c3d1ae4ea.html

If you could clarify the allegation one way or another I'd be appreciative. IDK what the couples address was or the Mayor's.

Foxtrol

WrenBoy wrote: »

And if they come across a armed robbery or shooting whilst out on patrol due to the fact almost anyone can have gun in America ? What then? Under equipping the cops in America will only result in more dead cops. Better training and standards are the solution imo.

One of the routes to defunding involves taking those roles away from the cops so the person dealing with kids mitching or issues in school that don't involve weapons wouldn't be responsible to deal with armed robberies. The remaining cops will do that, though have never actually stopped violent situations at a high rate, they just arrive afterwards and investigate.

We currently have situations where cops are putting 6 year olds in handcuffs because they aren't suitable nor trained to do the work they are being asked to do. You simply don't need cops with guns to handle a 6 year old.

Chris_Heilong

Overheal wrote: »

This was the scene at the Mayors home.

https://www.kmov.com/raw-hundreds-gather-outside-st-louis-mayor-lyda-krewsons-house-demanding-her-resignation/video_0aaf76c2-2b50-5379-a461-5b8c3d1ae4ea.html

If you could clarify the allegation one way or another I'd be appreciative. IDK what the couples address was or the Mayor's.

Your link does not work in Ireland, must be an American only site.

biko

I can't wait for the defunders in Minneapolis to start patrolling the streets with no guns.
The criminals will still have guns but maybe they won't shoot at unarmed defunders.
"Stop robbing the bank! You're just letting yourself down!"

Of course we will have to defund private security for Minneapolis council members who voted to abolish cops.

Andrea Jenkins, Phillipe Cunningham and Alondra Cano burns through more than $63,000 on private security, but they don't want protection for their citizens.

WrenBoy

Foxtrol wrote: »

One of the routes to defunding involves taking those roles away from the cops so the person dealing with kids mitching or issues in school that don't involve weapons wouldn't be responsible to deal with armed robberies. The remaining cops will do that, though have never actually stopped violent situations at a high rate, they just arrive afterwards and investigate.

We currently have situations where cops are putting 6 year olds in handcuffs because they aren't suitable nor trained to do the work they are being asked to do. You simply don't need cops with guns to handle a 6 year old.

I repeat, better training is required, no cop in a uniform would feel comfortable going anywhere without protection in this day and age.

Foxtrol

WrenBoy wrote: »

I repeat, better training is required, no cop in a uniform would feel comfortable going anywhere without protection in this day and age.

I repeat, they won't be cops that will be assigned to those jobs that they admit they aren't suited for.

It is a complete waste of money to train cops to deal with people rob bank etc and also be social workers when instead you can just use social workers, like kids mitching from school or people having mental issues and no weapons were reported.

Overheal

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Your link does not work in Ireland, must be an American only site.

It will spit you back to their homepage if you ignore their adblocker popup. You have to disable it I’m afraid.

@Biko trying to extract the social services role from the police deserves a little more time to prove itself.

biko

Overheal wrote: »

@Biko trying to extract the social services role from the police deserves a little more time to prove itself.

Shouldn't the call really be "Fund the Social Services" instead of "Defund the police"?
You can fund the social services without cutting back on policing.

There a political will issue here.
Defunders have been in power for years without doing anything about the problems they have in their own cities. I doubt they will do anything about it now.
Dems cities are the worst run and most crime-ridden cities in US.

Overheal

biko wrote: »

Shouldn't the call really be "Fund the Social Services" instead of "Defund the police"?
You can fund the social services without cutting back on policing.

There a political will issue here.
Defunders have been in power for years without doing anything about the problems they have in their own cities. I doubt they will do anything about it now.
Dems cities are the worst run and most crime-ridden cities in US.

I mean yeah it’s like “MEXICO will pay for it” - it’s a confused political buzz phrase that energized enough people, but yes Biden etc. aren’t along for the ride on the defund mantra.

Foxtrol

biko wrote: »

Shouldn't the call really be "Fund the Social Services" instead of "Defund the police"?
You can fund the social services without cutting back on policing.

There is a finite budget out there, especially with how much cities will be hit by COVID. People don't want after school programs or other services cut.

On a broader sense there is elements of police that do need to be defunded. There is no justification for small towns having SWAT teams and tanks.

There a political will issue here.
Defunders have been in power for years without doing anything about the problems they have in their own cities. I doubt they will do anything about it now.

Politicians have regularly ran on police reform but then back completely off it when they get into power because of the police union having so much power. De Blasio ran on police reform and despite a police union doxing his daughter he came out saying what a great job the police did when driving their cruiser through a crowd of people.

Dems cities are the worst run and most crime-ridden cities in US.

Care to elaborate on this? Can you point to any comparative US cities that are ran by republicans that are ran better and have less crime?

biko

Foxtrol wrote: »

Care to elaborate on this? Can you point to any comparative US cities that are ran by republicans that are ran better and have less crime?

It's actually funny. Washington Post tried to run a debunker with the headline
"Trump keeps claiming that the most dangerous cities in America are all run by Democrats. They aren’t."

Trump said - “Every one of them is Democrat run. Twenty out of 20.
The 20 worst, the 20 most dangerous are Democrat run.”

Turns out 17 are, and 3 aren't - 2 independents and 1 Republican city.

So 100% is wrong, it should be 85% run by Dems.
Oh, and 95% run by non-republicans...




https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/25/trump-keeps-claiming-that-most-dangerous-cities-america-are-all-run-by-democrats-they-arent/

Foxtrol

biko wrote: »

It's actually funny. Washington Post tried to run a debunker with the headline
"Trump keeps claiming that the most dangerous cities in America are all run by Democrats. They aren’t."

Trump said - “Every one of them is Democrat run. Twenty out of 20.
The 20 worst, the 20 most dangerous are Democrat run.”

Turns out 17 are, and 3 aren't - 2 independents and 1 Republican city.

So 100% is wrong, it should be 85% run by Dems.
Oh, and 95% run by non-republicans...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/25/trump-keeps-claiming-that-most-dangerous-cities-america-are-all-run-by-democrats-they-arent/

That doesn't answer my question though. I asked you to point me to a few comparative cities that are run by republicans that are notably better run and safer.

Understanding context is important. Democrats run nearly every significant city and I cant think of anywhere in the world where crime is lower in cities and higher in the suburbs/rural.

Similarly, income tends to be higher in cities than rural areas so pointing to the fact that Republicans run most of the lowest income states doesn't really add much value to discussions, as most of those are very rural so naturally would have lower incomes.

Statistics without understanding context are absolutely worthless.

biko

Republican cities
San Diego, California - 8th largest in US
Jacksonville, Florida - 14th largest in US << this is the only city on on the "most dangerous cities" list
Fort Worth, Texas - 18th largest in US
El Paso, Texas - 20th largest in US


Are you saying that the more violent cities are more violent because of their size, rather than their politicians?
Or because people in cities have more money?

BloodBath

The money is there. For a lot of things.

Defund the bloody military and there's magically funds for better education, healthcare, social services, police. Whatever.

The military has been used to fleece the American taxpayer for decades, with trillions of missing money, as well as killing/displacing millions of innocents and destroying countries.

A far bigger issue that doesn't get talked about.

Overheal

biko wrote: »

Republican cities
San Diego, California - 8th largest in US
Jacksonville, Florida - 14th largest in US << this is the only city on on the "most dangerous cities" list
Fort Worth, Texas - 18th largest in US
El Paso, Texas - 20th largest in US


Are you saying that the more violent cities are more violent because of their size, rather than their politicians?
Or because people in cities have more money?

Wait - isn’t San Francisco the one where Pelosi is constantly blamed for the homeless pooping on the streets? And it’s run by a Republican? Well, I never...

ELM327

BloodBath wrote: »

The money is there. For a lot of things.

Defund the bloody military and there's magically funds for better education, healthcare, social services, police. Whatever.

The military has been used to fleece the American taxpayer for decades, with trillions of missing money, as well as killing/displacing millions of innocents and destroying countries.

A far bigger issue that doesn't get talked about.

You can't defund the military.
America has been the defacto world police for some time. In addition to policing its own interests.


Defunding the military is not an option. America needs a strong military.