BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

Wowsers.

Maybe I am a psychic!

Or perhaps, what the poster said was absolutely clear and only someone who WANTED to make it a race issue, would have taken it up any differently than it was intended.

But no, probably MAGA or something.

No, all you've witnessed and/or partaken in a dog whistle. By purposefully obfuscating the intention of their prose by not being at all clear who "They" etc. are, it is an attempt to cast aspersions on anyone simply wishing to know what the user clearly meant, which the user did not return to explain on their own until post #9467. Everything in the interim was the peanut gallery trying to make it into something it was not.

For the record: you were the first person who "WANTED to make it a race issue,"

Deleted User wrote: »

Overheal wrote:

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I'm delighted to see more of this blatant hypocrisy being called out.
They are the exact thing they accuse you of.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9751521/Olympian-Gwen-Berrys-tweets-decade-ago-reveal-history-rape-jokes-tweets-mocking-white-people.html

Who is “they?”

The poster was talking about people like Trudeau, Fallon, Kimmel etc who are famously critical of any perceived racism and then photos surface of themselves in blackface.

In the future, I hope you would be so good as to simply allow the person asked a question a chance to respond before you "make it a race issue."

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

What has maga got to do with anything within this context? You accused someone of talking about "blacks" when they obviously were not, and then brought up MAGA.

As I said at the time:

Are you the poster’s psychic medium?

If third parties get to put answers in for them: We know they meant blacks.

edit: and also

Overheal wrote: »

The poster obviously meant blacks, if you would like to go back and forth obviating.

/edit



My entire point being that you had no constructive basis for interjecting on behalf of another user to clarify a vague bit of language. This is a race issues thread, the topics involved are sensitive, and various groups overlap (see Biko's post), it's not extraordinary to ask a user what that user means when they say "they," especially when speaking critically of a They.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

No, all you've witnessed and/or partaken in a dog whistle. By purposefully obfuscating the intention of their prose by not being at all clear who "They" etc. are, it is an attempt to cast aspersions on anyone simply wishing to know what the user clearly meant, which the user did not return to explain on their own until post #9467. Everything in the interim was the peanut gallery trying to make it into something it was not.

Lol.

Absolute crap. It was exceptionally clear who "They" were. Its not the posters fault you didn't understand. That's on you.

And another beauty...

Dog whistle.

The last bastion of the person desperate to call someone racist.

Dog whistling. What exactly is that? Something that isn't overtly racist that attracts racists? Is that correct?

What kind of bull**** is that? Anyone who can't prove racism can accuse ANY statement of being that.

Deal with actual ****ing racism instead of your bull**** dog whistle bollocks.

"Well I know what you said isn't racist, but I'm sure racists will like it".

And citing as a negative the length of time it took for people to come back to explain themselves? Come on overheal, nobody is on the clock here. Give over.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

As I said at the time:



My entire point being that you had no constructive basis for interjecting on behalf of another user to clarify a vague bit of language.

I surely did.

It was because you were questioning the meaning. I gave the most logical explanation.

As I said, I'd you wanted a personal response with no other interjection, you should have sent a private message.

But I'm glad you didn't. It showed that you immediately went to the "I don't like what you say so I assume the worst" conclusion

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol.

Absolute crap. It was exceptionally clear who "They" were. Its not the posters fault you didn't understand. That's on you.

And another beauty...

Dog whistle.

The last bastion of the person desperate to call someone racist.

Dog whistling. What exactly is that? Something that isn't overtly racist that attracts racists? Is that correct?

What kind of bull**** is that? Anyone who can't prove racism can accuse ANY statement of being that.

Deal with actual ****ing racism instead of your bull**** dog whistle bollocks.

"Well I know what you said isn't racist, but I'm sure racists will like it".

And citing as a negative the length of time it took for people to come back to explain themselves? Come on overheal, nobody is on the clock here. Give over.

It sounds like you want to argue about things we could take to PM. I will not be responding further to you here unless it is about the topic.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

It sounds like you want to argue about things we could take to PM.

I've no interest in an argument. I have no interest in private messaging. I will respond to any you send though.

I'm just responding to your non sensical allusions of racism and dog whistling.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm just responding to your non sensical allusions of racism and dog whistling.

But, didn't you, in your surrogate answer, say that They referred to blackface woke racists or something to that effect? So, how could I have been casting the allusion of [the thing that They meant] if that was the thing that They meant, by simply asking "who is They."

All I'm ultimately saying here is, maybe with all the They's that we've seen in this thread: BLM, WLM, Whites, Blacks, Liberals, Wokes, Conservatives, Soccer Clubs, England, Americans, Torys, MAGA/Trumpers, Antifa, etc etc. that we should be less lazy with prose.

Cheers. /

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

But, didn't you, in your surrogate answer, say that They referred to blackface woke racists or something to that effect? So, how could I have been casting the allusion of [the thing that They meant] if that was the thing that They meant, by simply asking "who is They."

All I'm ultimately saying here is, maybe with all the They's that we've seen in this thread: BLM, WLM, Whites, Blacks, Liberals, Conservatives, Torys, MAGA/Trumpers, Antifa, etc etc. that we should be less lazy with prose.

The "they" they poster was referring to were people who condemned people for perceived politically incorrect statements or actions, who were guilty of similar transgressions previously.

The link in their post made that obvious.

There was no need for your questioning and further assertion that "they" was a reference to blacks.

The person who made the post confirmed what I said was true.

What's the issue?

Overheal

Happy 4th of July everyone. Let’s remember how systemic racism is in the US this holiday.



https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/sep/10/arlen-parsa/evidence-shows-most-47-men-famous-declaration-inde/

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

Happy 4th of July everyone. Let’s remember how systemic racism is in the US this holiday.

[img][/img]https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=557563&d=1625418613

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/sep/10/arlen-parsa/evidence-shows-most-47-men-famous-declaration-inde/

Now do the same for other developed countries at the time, or the relevant equivalent in Africa

biko

Are you a descendant of a slaveowner Overheal?
I'm not.
Should I be angry over your ancestor's actions and values?
Is it ok if I'm not?

Overheal

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Now do the same for other developed countries at the time, or the relevant equivalent in Africa

Why? This thread largely deals with the US, not Namibia or elsewhere. South Africa didn’t write America’s Jim Crow laws. An Egyptian cop didn’t murder George Floyd. A Syrian officer didn’t kill Philandro Castile. The Libyan army didn’t redline black Americans.

nolivesmatter

Overheal wrote: »

Happy 4th of July everyone. Let’s remember how systemic racism is in the US this holiday.

[img][/img]https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=557563&d=1625418613

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/sep/10/arlen-parsa/evidence-shows-most-47-men-famous-declaration-inde/

That's not evidence of systemic racism today, it just highlights how far American society has come.

Overheal

biko wrote: »

Are you a descendant of a slaveowner Overheal?
I'm not.
Should I be angry over your ancestors action's and values?
Is it ok if I'm not?

No I am a descendant of John Wesley. He abhorred slavery.

Now why would you go and try and make an ad hominem attack anyway? I am not the topic and neither are you. If I had a slave owners blood in my veins, this means I love slavery? Many black Americans have lineage to Thomas Jefferson, are they slavery lovers? What distraction is this from a meaningful discussion Biko.

http://abolition.e2bn.org/people_32.html

Overheal

nolivesmatter wrote: »

That's not evidence of systemic racism today, it just highlights how far American society has come.

They wrote the constitution. Unless the constitution is completely different now (it’s not) then it sure does evidence how systemic racism is in our country.

nolivesmatter

Overheal wrote: »

They wrote the constitution. Unless the constitution is completely different now (it’s not) then it sure does evidence how systemic racism is in our country.

Is it just the fact that they wrote it, or is there something racist in what they wrote? Because if it's the former then what's the solution, tear it up and start again?

Overheal

nolivesmatter wrote: »

Is it just the fact that they wrote it, or is there something racist in what they wrote? Because if it's the former then what's the solution, tear it up and start again?

So you’ve never heard of the 3/5th compromise? Hell even the 13th amendment, passed later, to this day and through tomorrow still allows slavery as a form of punishment.

Overheal

You see, even after slavery ended and whites could not become filthy rich off the backs of the slave, they simply arrested those slaves and put them back to work under institutionalized slavery. In this way whites continued to expand their wealth vs. the minorities who were rounded up and jailed, unable to build wealth and used to do hard labor whites would have otherwise had to pay for. This wealth disparity can still be seen today, with more whites than other races inheriting the lions share of generational wealth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_gang

biko

In those days people had slaves. That was wrong. It's a long time ago.
Your ancestors didn't own slaves, neither did mine.
Even if they had, it's still not our fault.

If you want to give money toward BLM, go ahead. But don't demand I pay anything.

Cordell

Slavery was never about race, it was about slavery. The slaves were black because that was the source of slaves, Africa. Enslaved and sold by their fellow black men.
I'm not saying that systemic racism didn't exist, but there is none in this context. It's just the desire to smear everything as to delete or at least compromise the huge contribution that the white slave owners had to the construction of the US. Yes, they were wrong to have slaves, but those were the times. Slave labor also financed the war of independence.

Overheal

biko wrote: »

In those days people had slaves. That was wrong. It's a long time ago.
Your ancestors didn't own slaves, neither did mine.
Even if they had, it's still not our fault.

None of which defies the reality that there are serious wealth and status gaps left over from slavery and Jim Crow. Heck we were still lynching people here and there up through the 1990s.

Overheal

Cordell wrote: »

Slavery was never about race, it was about slavery. The slaves were black because that was the source of slaves, Africa. Enslaved and sold by their fellow black men.
I'm not saying that systemic racism didn't exist, but there is none in this context. It's just the desire to smear everything as to delete or at least compromise the huge contribution that the white slave owners had to the construction of the US. Yes, they were wrong to have slaves, but those were the times. Slave labor also financed the war of independence.

Of course slavery was about race. Whites weren’t chattel slaves, blacks were. Whites, where they were in servitude, were indentured, with serious limitations compared to chattel slaves, whom the blacks were. You were enslaved if you were black. You weren’t enslaved because your papers said you came from Africa. You were persecuted based on the color of your skin. A black walking around without a white master was rounded up and if not returned to a slave owner they were auctioned off as one.

nolivesmatter

Overheal wrote: »

So you’ve never heard of the 3/5th compromise? Hell even the 13th amendment, passed later, to this day and through tomorrow still allows slavery as a form of punishment.

I haven't, so I don't have a strong feeling on this subject.
From looking it up I see the 3/5th compromise was about how slaves should be counted in state populations, and the 13th amendment you covered there yourself. But none of this is practiced now thankfully. Again, surely this just shows how far things have come.

Edit: The 13th amendment itself was a step in the right direction from slavery.

Overheal

nolivesmatter wrote: »

I haven't, so I don't have a strong feeling on this subject.
From looking it up I see the 3/5th compromise was about how slaves should be counted in state populations, and the 13th amendment you covered there yourself. But none of this is practiced now thankfully. Again, surely this just shows how far things have come.

If you never knew these things prior to today there’s a lot for you to unpack. “The Thirteenth” is a good netflix recommendation for you so. Maybe you’ve also heard of the Tulsa Race Massacre too. What about the Red Summer of 1919?

“How far things have come” - the 13th is still in force.

Cordell

Overheal wrote: »

Of course slavery was about race. Whites weren’t chattel slaves, blacks were. Whites, where they were in servitude, were indentured, with serious limitations compared to chattel slaves, whom the blacks were. You were enslaved if you were black. You weren’t enslaved because your papers said you came from Africa. You were persecuted based on the color of your skin. A black walking around without a white master was rounded up and if not returned to a slave owner they were auctioned off as one.

Yes, all slaves were black and because of that there was the assumption that all black people are slaves. But that's only because there was no way to enslave whites anymore like 1000 years before in Europe, and the African slaves were plentiful.

In any case, since then US had a black president that had no problem with the declaration or the constitution. So I guess systemic racism has officially ended in 2008 with the first black president.

Overheal

Cordell wrote: »

Yes, all slaves were black and because of that there was the assumption that all black people are slaves. But that's only because there was no way to enslave whites anymore like 1000 years before in Europe, and the African slaves were plentiful.

In any case, since then US had a black president that had no problem with the declaration or the constitution. So I guess systemic racism has officially ended in 2008 with the first black president.

Very reductive argument to assume that, because one exceptional American was elected to the presidency, that systemic race issues have been eliminated. They have not.

For example, software tools are used to decide if a jailed defendant should be allowed bail and at what cost, known as Pretrial Algorithms. These algorithms have been found, even since the election of Barack Obama, to be discriminating against defendants based on race and race related factors.

https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/can-racist-algorithms-be-fixed

And no not all slaves were black, just all chattel slaves. It boiled down to skin color, you were enslaved if you were black. Non blacks only became indentured to pay off a debt eg. To pay their way from Europe, they entered into legal contracts to be indentured servants for limited periods of time, usually a few years. Chattel slaves enjoyed no such limitation and were the lifelong property of their masters, from cradle to grave in a plantation slave barracks.

Cordell

Overheal wrote: »

For example, software tools are used to decide if a jailed defendant should be allowed bail and at what cost, known as Pretrial Algorithms. These algorithms have been found, even since the election of Barack Obama, to be discriminating against defendants based on race and race related factors.

Unless those algorithms have the skin color as an input parameter, they are not racist.

Overheal

Cordell wrote: »

Unless those algorithms have the skin color as an input parameter, they are not racist.

I think the people who have actually cross examined them would know better than someone abjectly denying it out of hand on a message board.

Did you read the article I posted?

Cordell

Overheal wrote: »

I think the people who have actually cross examined them would know better than someone abjectly denying it out of hand on a message board.

Did you read the article I posted?

I don't trust them I'd rather trust the ones that wrote that they didn't include any racist section.

Overheal

Cordell wrote: »

I don't trust them I'd rather trust the ones that wrote that they didn't include any racist section.

If you wish to remain ignorant for ad hominem reasons that’s your prerogative.