BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

stinkypinky

Tell me how wrote: »

I suspect that they, like anyone else wants to feel safe. But, they want those same police people to behave differently.

Both things are not mutually exclusive.

It's all good saying that cops should behave differently ( which they should esp in the case of George Floyd ) - but cops can't rely on hardened criminals who shoot and kill with no remorse to do the same. There needs to be police training given annually to prevent such incidents, I'm sure everyone agrees with that and it's a decent start.

stinkypinky

biko wrote: »

Would it help to have mainly black police in black neighbourhoods?









And mainly white police in white neighbourhoods?

No, because there's no correlation with white cops shooting blacks.

Overheal

stinkypinky wrote: »

I think the idea that more blacks are proportionally arrested because they're specifically targeted is tomfoolery of the higher order. Even if it were true, should cops spent less time in crime riddled areas to try be more diverse in their arrests.

I don't have a silver bullet answer for that. Does it make entirely too much sense to have police equidistantly sparsed across a vast metropolitan area or clustered in 'hot spots.' Very complicated problem. Because policing is data driven it falls into that same type of analogy as bikers who tend to drift wherever they are looking. It's a cycle of see crime here -> expect crime here -> look for crime here -> find crime here -> expect crime here, and on and on. My concern is a lot of the data that predicated these cycles became ingrained from decades ago, or longer, back when segregation and jim crow policies were de rigueur. eg. if they only go to typical white suburbs on a call and spend their time on beat in 'hot spots' so end up spotting crimes before they are reported more often in these areas, like a man selling loose cigarettes on a corner. There are many studies that show that blacks are stopped more than whites in traffic stops, which is a police-initiated interaction not typically based on a 911 or *HP call.

stinkypinky

Overheal wrote: »

I don't have a silver bullet answer for that. Does it make entirely too much sense to have police equidistantly sparsed across a vast metropolitan area or clustered in 'hot spots.' Very complicated problem. Because policing is data driven it falls into that same type of analogy as bikers who tend to drift wherever they are looking. It's a cycle of see crime here -> expect crime here -> look for crime here -> find crime here -> expect crime here, and on and on. My concern is a lot of the data that predicated these cycles became ingrained from decades ago, or longer, back when segregation and jim crow policies were de rigueur. eg. if they only go to typical white suburbs on a call and spend their time on beat in 'hot spots' so end up spotting crimes before they are reported more often in these areas, like a man selling loose cigarettes on a corner. There are many studies that show that blacks are stopped more than whites in traffic stops, which is a police-initiated interaction not typically based on a 911 or *HP call.

Cops go where crime is, it's no different to Ireland. There's specific task forces to battle the drug gangs in Dublin as an example, but you won't find similar task forces in Co Mayo. I think trying to think beyond that is really reaching. I do agree that blacks are very likely to be racially targeted more than whites in traffic stops and such - similarly to what happens at airports in the aftermath of 9/11.

Overheal

biko wrote: »

Would it help to have mainly black police in black neighbourhoods?

And mainly white police in white neighbourhoods?

No because segregation is awful and black cops can still be implicitly biased toward black suspects. The problems are in the training, there is no national standard. Departments that have already undergone extensive bias and use of force training have seen dramatically improved results. eg.

https://qz.com/565011/how-one-of-the-largest-police-forces-in-america-stopped-shooting-people/

Another prime example is the Salt Lake City PD

https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=4334493&itype=CMSID

Though it's not perfect. It requires officers to buy-in.

leedsforever

biko wrote: »

Would it help to have mainly black police in black neighbourhoods?









And mainly white police in white neighbourhoods?

Live in Chicago. Many black cops don't want to work in black neighborhoods, they get too much abuse and it's a ****show most of the time anyway. Cops with time on the job get the hell out of there as soon as they can. I wish we had black taxi tours here like they do in Belfast to give people an idea what the ghettos are really like but it would be really too dangerous. We're on track for 600 killed this year and about 3,000 wounded.

Tell me how

Biker79 wrote: »

There is a very low risk of escalation when you 100% co-operate with police requests.

If you have a violent criminal history, then you should aim for 150% co-operation with police requests. That much is very clear to me. I cant grasp why people don't get this, I truly cant. But that's me and I cant imagine resisting someone who has a gun.

Also note that in a society that does not have a violent element, strong police measures are not necessary. Living in a violent society, you have to accept certain things are necessary when engaging with the police, like being 100% co-operative.

Simple as that.

Come on man. There is not shortage of videos of cops attacking and beating people, some even in handcuffs.

Also, the militarization of police activities is in some way responsible for the escalation in violence so don't pretend this is all them reacting to defend themselves.

This is far from simple.

stinkypinky

Tell me how wrote: »

Come on man. There is not shortage of videos of cops attacking and beating people, some even in handcuffs.

How many interactions do you think the police have with the general public each year in the states? The New York police union chief claims 375 million yearly - any number in the hundreds of millions will always bring isolated incidents which are virtually impossible to eliminate... there will always be wrongdoing and bad eggs that slip under the radar given the sheer scale of their entire operation.

Overheal

stinkypinky wrote: »

How many interactions do you think the police have with the general public each year in the states? The New York police union chief claims 375 million yearly - any number in the hundreds of millions will always bring isolated incidents which are virtually impossible to eliminate... there will always be wrongdoing and bad eggs that slip under the radar given the sheer scale of their entire operation.

There are 375 million or more egg laying birds in the US agricultural industry averaging 281 eggs each per year - 105.38 Billion eggs. Yet, the agriculture industry knows how to successfully remove the bad eggs before they reach customers.

I am unconvinced that policing as a system can not figure out how to get rid of bad eggs. When the whole bunch defends bad apples, the whole bunch is spoiled. We see this all the time. Police are not only reluctant to call out bad police, but at times departments harass officers who do report bad behavior. Lots of departments in the US will outright refuse to file complaints against officers, undercover journalists who tried to file such complaints were in some cases even threatened with arrest for going to station and trying to get such paperwork. But a few months ago police had no hesitation sending out alarmed PSAs to be wary of and even boycott Shake Shack after it was haphazardly alleged that officers were poisoned there (they were not). An Oklahoma city-level councilwoman who wanted to slash the Norman city police budget was doxxed by a police officer, her neighbor was subsequently raped. No actions have been taken against the officer; yet when one twitter user from New Jersey asked online for the identity of a masked police officer after this officer had befriended a counterprotester who threatened him at a BLM rally, he and 4 other people who retweeted him have been charged with felony cyber harassment which could end up with 18 months jail and a $10k fine each, even though they had not discovered or disclosed the identity of the officer or any doxxing information. I don't buy this whole 'it is what it is, a few bad eggs' approach. The system is working the way it has been designed to.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

It wasn't purely due to her skin color though, it was part of it, a larger part of that was wearing makeup to appear blacker than you actually are.

Why is that bad?

Tell me how

Biker79 wrote: »

I'd also add that police have an extraordinarily difficult job. They have a responsibility to respond in a measured way if a situation is escalated whilst keeping themselves and the public safe. They have full control over life and death. They can never get this right 100% of the time, all of the time, in somewhere like the USA. Which is all the more reason to watch what you say and do if they approach.

If you are unlucky enough to encounter a bad egg...that's even more reason to say and do nothing antagonizing until the incident is over, IMHO. You can file a complaint afterwards. I believe these sort of cops are much rarer than we are led to believe.

I don't know by what basis you can say that such cops are much rarer than is led to be believed. Every state, city and likely every individual police force have had documented cases of excessive force used by people employed specficially to protect the community.

That is why there are protests, to say that what is happening is unacceptable and there needs to be a considered approach to improving policing.

I am going on the basis that police reform is the desired outcome of the vast majority of those protesting, not for the complete and permanent removal of police which I don't believe is in any reasonable way being advocated.

The complaints have been made before, the promises that things would change have been made before, the return to normal behaviours has happened before, this is the latest phase in what will ultimately, hopefully lead to an improved experience for everyone involved, the police and the community.

stinkypinky

Overheal wrote: »

There are 375 million or more egg laying birds in the US agricultural industry averaging 281 eggs each per year - 105.38 Billion eggs. Yet, the agriculture industry knows how to successfully remove the bad eggs before they reach customers.

That's kind of a silly analogy - people are complex and unpredictable, unlike an actual rotten egg which is an inanimate object.

da_miser

BLM in effect
Why should the white devil care?
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/8/7/21358341/chicago-shootings-gun-violence-thursday-august-6-2020
https://abc7chicago.com/chicagocrime-chicago-shooting-child-shot-hurt/6358292/

ThunbergsAreGo

Overheal wrote: »

It wasn't purely due to her skin color though, it was part of it, a larger part of that was wearing makeup to appear blacker than you actually are.

Like someone wearing fake tan?

ThunbergsAreGo

Overheal wrote: »

No because segregation is awful and black cops can still be implicitly biased toward black suspects. The problems are in the training, there is no national standard. Departments that have already undergone extensive bias and use of force training have seen dramatically improved results. eg.

https://qz.com/565011/how-one-of-the-largest-police-forces-in-america-stopped-shooting-people/

Another prime example is the Salt Lake City PD

https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=4334493&itype=CMSID

Though it's not perfect. It requires officers to buy-in.

Is that this Salt Lake City https://www.areavibes.com/salt+lake+city-ut/crime/

da_miser

It as if the left are pushing segregation and apartheid, why would white devils support these shops?
https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/31/21348990/google-black-owned-businesses-maps-search

da_miser

BLM has done one thing and thats is opened the eyes of everyone on crime statistics, not a good look for BLM, a own goal if anything

biko

Antifa/BLM humiliates old woman, pours paint over her.
Later in the clip a brave BLMer blocks an old woman from putting out a fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdWG87mXoqM

Antifa has a history of going after old people.

Tell me how

biko wrote: »

Antifa/BLM humiliates old woman, pours paint over her.
Later in the clip a brave BLMer blocks an old woman from putting out a fire.

Looking forward to your next video installment Biko. They say a lot.

Rodney Bathgate

biko wrote: »

Antifa/BLM humiliates old woman, pours paint over her.
Later in the clip a brave BLMer blocks an old woman from putting out a fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdWG87mXoqM

Antifa has a history of going after old people.

The scum strike again.

leedsforever

Tell me how wrote: »

Looking forward to your next video installment Biko. They say a lot.

Hey, what a great idea. Let's get in among the horses and scream and shout at them. And then bitch about it when you get trampled. These people have never been to a football match in England obviously. Grow up idiots!

1800_Ladladlad

biko wrote: »

Antifa/BLM humiliates old woman, pours paint over her.
Later in the clip a brave BLMer blocks an old woman from putting out a fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdWG87mXoqM

Antifa has a history of going after old people.

The attacker is black and the victim is white, using the BLM and anti white logic; the attacker is a racist scumbag.

Tell me how

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

The attacker is black and the victim is white, using the BLM and anti white logic; the attacker is a racist scumbag.

Except that isn't BLM logic, is it?

2u2me

Tell me how wrote: »

Except that isn't BLM logic, is it?

Oxymoron.

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

Oxymoron.

Yeah? Please explain?

Or do you think that feeling your community is oppressed and marching to try to instigate positive change is an illogical thing to do?

Pray tell, what do you think they should do?

2u2me

Tell me how wrote: »

Yeah? Please explain?

Or do you think that feeling your community is oppressed and marching to try to instigate positive change is an illogical thing to do?

Pray tell, what do you think they should do?

Advocating to 'defund the police' or even 'abolish the police' and advocating to remove body cameras are all completely illogical things that won't help their cause in anyway whatsoever.

Using slogans like 'black lives matter', 'ally or enemy' 'white silence is violence' is not helping their cause in anyway whatsoever.

As I said, oxymoron.

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

Advocating to 'defund the police' or even 'abolish the police' and advocating to remove body cameras are all completely illogical things that won't help their cause in anyway whatsoever.

Using slogans like 'black lives matter', 'ally or enemy' 'white silence is violence' is not helping their cause in anyway whatsoever.

As I said, oxymoron.

Not exactly, it is simply a difference in opinion.

Also, re-allocating funds from militarised police forces to other resources which can help people in a much more peaceful manner sounds very logical.

What slogan would you like a community which feels targeted to use?

Bonniedog

Tell me how wrote: »

Yeah? Please explain?

Or do you think that feeling your community is oppressed and marching to try to instigate positive change is an illogical thing to do?

Pray tell, what do you think they should do?

In what way is cops killing a criminal oppression?

Same applies to the scum who rioted over the London crim Duggan,

Why do they identify with dirt bags?

iebamm2580

Tell me how wrote: »

Not exactly, it is simply a difference in opinion.

Also, re-allocating funds from militarised police forces to other resources which can help people in a much more peaceful manner sounds very logical.

What slogan would you like a community which feels targeted to use?

Im sure the many mothers in Chicago who have lost children this year would love to live in your ideal world of having less police in their neighborhoods, you do know you can have increased resources for neighborhoods without defunding the police. Tarring approx 800,000 officers with the one brush does not seem very LOGICAL to me or any reasoned person.

Tell me how

iebamm2580 wrote: »

Im sure the many mothers in Chicago who have lost children this year would love to live in your ideal world of having less police in their neighborhoods, you do know you can have increased resources for neighborhoods without defunding the police. Tarring approx 800,000 officers with the one brush does not seem very LOGICAL to me or any reasoned person.

Or what about the parents of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor or Eric Garner? Is their suffering to be discounted?

Based on the widespread participation at protests and marches, I think it is fair to say that the most commonly held views within the black communities, Chicago and elsewhere are that this is a justified movement.

The current model of police force practices have had their opportunity in throughout the US and the deaths continue to grow in areas such as Chicago. No rational argument is saying that there should be no police. Or that there won't be instances where they need to be armed and ready to use them but the argument is that instead that the needs of the community are looked at to determine if there is a way to prevent it getting to the point where armed police in a violent confrontation is the common occurrence.

Is it really desirable for any society to have police with equipment designed for warzones while teachers have to buy their own materials due to lack of funds?

Can you not see how even at that fundamental level that engaging with children in a more meaningful productive education system could lessen the chance that they would turn towards a life of crime?