BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

Cupatae

stinkypinky wrote: »

This is their UK go fundmepage.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world.

BLMUK organises in the black radical tradition, using political education, direct action and political leadership toward black liberation.

Black radical tradition counts the black panther movement and Malcolm x as past contributors.

Here is one of three co-founders in the US Patrisse Cullors, explaining the ideological beliefs of herself and another co-founders beliefs behind the movement - citing herself to be a trained Marxist.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

On their own website they cite

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/aug/11/ariel-atkins-blm-chicago-organizer-says-looting-is/ - As previously mentioned - looting and destroying businesses isn't as issue because they're owed reparations.

"A Black Lives Matter Chicago organizer said Monday that the mobs who vandalized and looted downtown businesses the night before did nothing wrong, calling it “reparations” for Black suffering.

“That is reparations,” Ariel Atkins, an organizer, told NBC Chicago. “Anything they wanted to take, they can take it because these businesses have insurance.”"

Their behavior and beliefs of dismantling modern society, removing capitalism all with the eventual goal of dismantling the police force isn't just Marxist - it's an extreme Anarchist type political movement. With all the funding and donations received which is likely in the tens of millions, what have BLM done for impoverished black communities? Where does the money go?

Once in a while the mask slips thankfully.

They target only white people and do for only black people but claim to not be racist and then uve bandwagon followers pretending along with em it's a weird weird situation lmao

Can't wait to see how they explain this one away

Foxtrol

Juza1973 wrote: »

The slogan is perfect and fair, the political movement behind it really is not.

But the BLM organization isn't who is running most of the protests, they are ran by hundreds/thousands of different groups and individuals all over the US/world.

It is like bringing Sinn Fein's wealth tax policy into the discussion of the concept/slogan of a united ireland.

Cupatae

If we defund the police can we give most of the money to white homeless people after all they have the biggest amount of homeless , and then to everyone else ? Or would that be white privilege ?? All For a better community of course. Or is it defund the police and give to only black people it's a top laugh infairness the BLM logic I'll give em that .

Cupatae

Foxtrol wrote: »

But the BLM organization isn't who is running most of the protests, they are ran by hundreds/thousands of different groups and individuals all over the US/world.

It is like bringing Sinn Fein's wealth tax policy into the discussion of the concept/slogan of a united ireland.

Or more accurately like SF running for gov and claiming they are completely separate to the IRA, while several of there members get caught on tape roaring up the ra ECT.

But carry on BLM and BLM people are completely different of course...

Tell me how

Cupatae wrote: »

Or more accurately like SF running for gov and claiming they are completely separate to the IRA, while several of there members get caught on tape roaring up the ra ECT.

But carry on BLM and BLM people are completely different of course...

By your rational, no new party could ever emerge because you could state (counter to their published positions) that you know what exactly they are doing and it is a bad idea.

If you were around in 1954, you'd have been arguing against de-segregation because you knew that what those calling for it really wanted was to stop all white people from going to school.

Cupatae

Tell me how wrote: »

By your rational, no new party could ever emerge because you could state (counter to their published positions) that you know what exactly they are doing and it is a bad idea.

If you were around in 1954, you'd have been arguing against de-segregation because you knew that what those calling for it really wanted was to stop all white people from going to school.

You know exactly what I meant but yet pretend not to, it's exactly what you and BLM supporters do, muddy the waters ... It ll work for a while but bit by bit it ll be seen thru.

I wouldn't argue against de segregation because they had a legitimate and transparent cause , that focused on bettering themselves not by worsening others, unlike BLM today that just takes pot shots at the white race for all there woes , but ironically claim not to be racist , and when they do slip up they have the convenient tale of BLM movement is different to BLM organization ,

When you have alot of black people themselves going against it you know it's a messed up movement how many black people were against de segregation?? Exactly

Chris_Heilong

Tell me how wrote: »

By your rational, no new party could ever emerge because you could state (counter to their published positions) that you know what exactly they are doing and it is a bad idea.

If you were around in 1954, you'd have been arguing against de-segregation because you knew that what those calling for it really wanted was to stop all white people from going to school.

Stop trying to compare these thugs to an actual civil rights movement, it is nothing alike, MLK would be very shocked and disappointed with their actions.

Carfacemandog

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Stop trying to compare these thugs to an actual civil rights movement, it is nothing alike, MLK would be very shocked and disappointed with their actions.

He really wouldn't.

I posted this in a separate thread earlier, but here is exactly what Martin Luther King had to say about rioting and looting:

"Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena. They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights. There are thus elements of emotional catharsis in the violent act. This may explain why most cities in which riots have occurred have not had a repetition, even though the causative conditions remain. It is also noteworthy that the amount of physical harm done to white people other than police is infinitesimal and in Detroit whites and Negroes looted in unity.

A profound judgment of today’s riots was expressed by Victor Hugo a century ago. He said, ‘If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.’

The policymakers of the white society have caused the darkness; they create discrimination; they structured slums; and they perpetuate unemployment, ignorance and poverty. It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society. When we ask Negroes to abide by the law, let us also demand that the white man abide by law in the ghettos. Day-in and day-out he violates welfare laws to deprive the poor of their meager allotments; he flagrantly violates building codes and regulations; his police make a mockery of law; and he violates laws on equal employment and education and the provisions for civic services. The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society; Negroes live in them but do not make them any more than a prisoner makes a prison. Let us say boldly that if the violations of law by the white man in the slums over the years were calculated and compared with the law-breaking of a few days of riots, the hardened criminal would be the white man. These are often difficult things to say but I have come to see more and more that it is necessary to utter the truth in order to deal with the great problems that we face in our society."

Tell me how

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Stop trying to compare these thugs to an actual civil rights movement, it is nothing alike, MLK would be very shocked and disappointed with their actions.

Yawn.

I bet Martin Luther was told the same thing when compared to those who fought for the right for blacks to vote, who were told the same thing when compared to those who advocated for the abolition of slavery who were told the same thing when compared to those who fought for revolution against the British.

By what measure are they thugs? Literally millions of people have marched at thousands of protests at which there has been a small amount of trouble. Do you want to stick a percentage on the total number of marches which turned violent (leaving aside the instigators of such violence for a second) or a percentage of the total number of people who marched and participated in any violence.

You don't want all cops tarred because of the actions of some, why aren't you applying the same rules when assessing those protesting?

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

I take it you can see the argument for overcoming redlining practices which occurred in the USA so and ensuring that all communities in Ireland have equal opportunity also before it becomes a major issue.

I agree with you about equal opportunity, but that is an old idea.
Today the fight is for equal outcomes. Big difference.

Errashareesh

Tell me how wrote: »

Yawn.

I bet Martin Luther was told the same thing when compared to those who fought for the right for blacks to vote, who were told the same thing when compared to those who advocated for the abolition of slavery who were told the same thing when compared to those who fought for revolution against the British.

By what measure are they thugs? Literally millions of people have marched at thousands of protests at which there has been a small amount of trouble. Do you want to stick a percentage on the total number of marches which turned violent (leaving aside the instigators of such violence for a second) or a percentage of the total number of people who marched and participated in any violence.

You don't want all cops tarred because of the actions of some, why aren't you applying the same rules when assessing those protesting?

Are they not talking about rioters/looters rather than peaceful protesters though? Downplaying - sometimes defence - of rioting/looting baffles me. Small businesses are being ruined (including those of African American folk). People's jobs are being lost.

But peaceful protesters - no issue (well apart from the Covid risk - like the morons who protested about pandemic restrictions in Michigan, but some seem to think some protests aren't a Covid risk, other protests are).

Tell me how

Errashareesh wrote: »

Are they not talking about rioters/looters rather than peaceful protesters though? Downplaying - sometimes defence - of rioting/looting baffles me. Small businesses are being ruined (including those of African American folk). People's jobs are being lost.

But peaceful protesters - no issue (well apart from the Covid risk - like the morons who protested about pandemic restrictions in Michigan, but some seem to think some protests aren't a Covid risk, other protests are).

There's two points to this First, it's not really downplaying it, it is putting it in to some sort of proportion and factoring in both A, the motivation behind the protests (widespread anger over several years amongst a community) and B, the volume of protests which have been held across virtually every city and state.

Secondly, in terms of the covid risk. Yes. It is an issue, but, many protesting at BLM marches continued to wear masks and B, there can be some argument for the justification of protesting such a fundamental thing as everyone being treated fairly versus protesting just to voice your anger at measures being put in place to try to protect people.

Biafranlivemat

biko wrote: »

Amazon donates $10 million to placate Antifa/BLM.
Their shop gets attacked anyway.

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1292751717998583808?s=20

An employee of an NPR (a lot like RTE) station was fired because he wrote an accurate description of Seattle on his Personal Blog. The bLM mob, are nasty people.
https://thepostmillennial.com/npr-fires-weatherman-for-comparing-seattle-riots-to-germany-in-1938

Tell me how

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

I agree with you about equal opportunity, but that is an old idea.
Today the fight is for equal outcomes. Big difference.

Where is it indicated that this is the case?

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

I never said that.

I'm still waiting on your evidence of causation but looks like you've decided to move the goalposts instead.

I do not know what you mean by 'Causation'

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

Given that this is the BLM thread, I'll go with that and look forward to you arguing for the removal of practices which inhibit some citizens who happen to be black, having the same access to resources which white people have.

The first paragraph says.

Fifty years after the federal Fair Housing Act banned racial discrimination in lending, African Americans and Latinos continue to be routinely denied conventional mortgage loans at rates far higher than their white counterparts.

I will re-write it to be more accurate.

Fifty years after the federal Fair Housing Act banned racial discrimination in lending, African Americans and Latinos AND WHITES continue to be routinely denied conventional mortgage loans at rates far higher than their ASIAN counterparts.

Comparing blacks and Hispanics to only Whites is not accurate, you must also talk about Asians.
But that would be a horrible fact, and I know how facts are not what the movement is based on.

2u2me

Tell me how wrote: »

Where is it indicated that this is the case?

Wherever you see the word 'equity'. People advocating 'equality' are generally advocating equality of opportunity the ones advocating 'equity' want equal outcomes.

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

Wherever you see the word 'equity'. People advocating 'equality' are generally advocating equality of opportunity the ones advocating 'equity' want equal outcomes.

Who and where are people talking about 'equity'?

Tell me how

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

The first paragraph says.

Fifty years after the federal Fair Housing Act banned racial discrimination in lending, African Americans and Latinos continue to be routinely denied conventional mortgage loans at rates far higher than their white counterparts.

I will re-write it to be more accurate.

Fifty years after the federal Fair Housing Act banned racial discrimination in lending, African Americans and Latinos AND WHITES continue to be routinely denied conventional mortgage loans at rates far higher than their ASIAN counterparts.

Comparing blacks and Hispanics to only Whites is not accurate, you must also talk about Asians.
But that would be a horrible fact, and I know how facts are not what the movement is based on.

Based on what evidence can you suggest the re-write as you have done here?

2u2me

Tell me how wrote: »

Who and where are people talking about 'equity'?

Check the bios, they're generally the people that also list their pronouns.

Here's an example I'm sure you can find an endless stream of them.

Janice Gassam Asare Senior Contributor Forbes

Bio: I help create strategies for more diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Many people feel as though they were raised to be colorblind, and they “don’t see race” and have convinced themselves that they are not one of the people that has contributed to systems of inequity

Link

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

I do not know what you mean by 'Causation'

This image might help you. What you're saying is icecream is causing the sunburn with no evidence aside from them happening at the same time.

You have provided no evidence that there is any link between the protests and increased murders, aside from them happening at the same time. What you have shown is correlation not causation.

https://twitter.com/GorissenWim/status/1063080493879623680?s=20

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

Check the bios, they're generally the people that also list their pronouns.

Here's an example I'm sure you can find an endless stream of them.

Janice Gassam Asare Senior Contributor Forbes

Bio: I help create strategies for more diversity, equity, and inclusion.



Link

I presumed the point was being made in relation to the financial or resource definition of the word equity.

It has 2 meanings. From Google.

noun
1.
the quality of being fair and impartial.
"equity of treatment"

2.
the value of the shares issued by a company.
"he owns 62% of the group's equity"

Here is a site which provides a definition in the context of activism.

Equity: The guarantee of fair treatment, access, opportunity, and advancement for all while striving to identify and eliminate barriers that have prevented the full participation of some groups. The principle of equity acknowledges that there are historically under-served and under-represented populations and that fairness regarding these unbalanced conditions is needed to assist equality in the provision of effective opportunities to all groups.

Given this context, I don't see how it can be suggested that they are looking for equality of outcome.

2u2me

Tell me how wrote: »

I presumed the point was being made in relation to the financial or resource definition of the word equity.

It has 2 meanings. From Google.

Here is a site which provides a definition in the context of activism.

Given this context, I don't see how it can be suggested that they are looking for equality of outcome.

The very definition that you supplied comes from a site that provides this example in the very next line. You have some large blinkers on to miss this.

One example I like to use when explaining equity is The Equal Pay for Women campaign which is based in part on equity, as women have historically been under paid and under represented in executive roles. Many employers are beginning reevaluating their compensation packages to increase the likelihood of comparable benefits and incentives for men and women. For example, Apple evaluates salaries, bonuses, and stock grants to mitigate financial disparities between men and women in their company. These efforts landed them on Glassdoor’s 2018 list, “16 Companies Committed to Equal Pay & Hiring Now.”

So they have identified that groups of men and women get paid differently, and instead of focusing on the opportunities of these two groups they'd rather the two groups had the same average pays, equality of outcome.

Perhaps you could research the difference between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity.

We cannot enforce equality of opportunity, although most Western societies try to at least provide a basic level of housing, education and health care for all, without infringing the freedom to be different and have different opportunities and backgrounds, abilities and skills.

Neither can we enforce equality of outcome without turning our societies into a communist nightmare. Even then, we cannot be equal, without damaging or holding back those with great skills and abilities to the lowest common denominator.

The only way forward is equality under the law, where all citizens have the equal rights, duties and obligations - and the same punishments should they break these laws.

Equity is about chopping legs off not propping people up. The sooner you realize this the better.

Biafranlivemat

Carfacemandog wrote: »

He really wouldn't.

I posted this in a separate thread earlier, but here is exactly what Martin Luther King had to say about rioting and looting:

"Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena. They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights. There are thus elements of emotional catharsis in the violent act. This may explain why most cities in which riots have occurred have not had a repetition, even though the causative conditions remain. It is also noteworthy that the amount of physical harm done to white people other than police is infinitesimal and in Detroit whites and Negroes looted in unity.

A profound judgment of today’s riots was expressed by Victor Hugo a century ago. He said, ‘If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.’

The policymakers of the white society have caused the darkness; they create discrimination; they structured slums; and they perpetuate unemployment, ignorance and poverty. It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society. When we ask Negroes to abide by the law, let us also demand that the white man abide by law in the ghettos. Day-in and day-out he violates welfare laws to deprive the poor of their meager allotments; he flagrantly violates building codes and regulations; his police make a mockery of law; and he violates laws on equal employment and education and the provisions for civic services. The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society; Negroes live in them but do not make them any more than a prisoner makes a prison. Let us say boldly that if the violations of law by the white man in the slums over the years were calculated and compared with the law-breaking of a few days of riots, the hardened criminal would be the white man. These are often difficult things to say but I have come to see more and more that it is necessary to utter the truth in order to deal with the great problems that we face in our society."

That is interesting what the Rev king said 50 years ago.
But today it is 2020
He mentions Detroit.
The last republican Mayor was in 1962, it has all been Democratic Mayors since then.
So who is to be held responsible for the condition of the city today, in an 90% black and brown Detroit .

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

Equity is about chopping legs off not propping people up. The sooner you realize this the better.

I of course made the mistake of thinking that the idea of same pay for the same job was not the same as requesting the same outcome with disparate contributions. Looks like there is still some bit to go before that is accepted as being reasonable.

In terms of your statement above, that doesn't make any sense, it's like a Fox News chyron. Care to explain what point you were trying to make and why the idea of treating people fairly is cutting their legs off?

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

There's two points to this First, it's not really downplaying it, it is putting it in to some sort of proportion and factoring in both A, the motivation behind the protests (widespread anger over several years amongst a community) and B, the volume of protests which have been held across virtually every city and state.

Secondly, in terms of the covid risk. Yes. It is an issue, but, many protesting at BLM marches continued to wear masks and B, there can be some argument for the justification of protesting such a fundamental thing as everyone being treated fairly versus protesting just to voice your anger at measures being put in place to try to protect people.

These ‘protesters’ have been around for a while. They always wear masks.
Boston 2019, No Covid-19 back then.

2u2me

Tell me how wrote: »

I of course made the mistake of thinking that the idea of same pay for the same job was not the same as requesting the same outcome with disparate contributions. Looks like there is still some bit to go before that is accepted as being reasonable.

In terms of your statement above, that doesn't make any sense, it's like a Fox News chyron. Care to explain what point you were trying to make and why the idea of treating people fairly is cutting their legs off?

The difference between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity was what we were discussing.

The previous example showed how equity advocates prefer instead to solve the disparities at the level of outcome, By enacting equal pay legislation etc.. My point being that this is how they approach disparities.

Instead of addressing the real issues that cause disparities at the highest level between men and women; maternity leave, cultural differences, bell curve differences, differences in hours worked, etc.. the focus becomes about attempts to equalize.

When looking at 'executive roles' they're looking for the more successful, intelligent people I'm sure you'd agree.

If perhaps the top 10% consists of 90% male (like a lot of research shows) wouldn't it be ludicrous to equalize these positions by male/female and the pay that they receive?

Isn't it about attracting top talent when we're talking about the top positions? For decades the US and the Soviets wanted the best chess players, they were mostly men, just as they are today. The same research would show that the 'worst' positions are also held by men.

As I said; chopping legs off.

silverharp

Tell me how wrote: »

Wrong.
The Pandemic.

hence the "in part" bit

Cupatae

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

The first paragraph says.

Fifty years after the federal Fair Housing Act banned racial discrimination in lending, African Americans and Latinos continue to be routinely denied conventional mortgage loans at rates far higher than their white counterparts.

I will re-write it to be more accurate.

Fifty years after the federal Fair Housing Act banned racial discrimination in lending, African Americans and Latinos AND WHITES continue to be routinely denied conventional mortgage loans at rates far higher than their ASIAN counterparts.

Comparing blacks and Hispanics to only Whites is not accurate, you must also talk about Asians.
But that would be a horrible fact, and I know how facts are not what the movement is based on.

Asians are kept as far away from this discussion as possible, as they take away 90% of the excuses and arguments BLM are making for the black community, imagine trying to spin the "poor hard done by minority victims of the big bad system" and then someone brings up Asians, makes things pretty awkward when you ve a successful minority that arent throwing toys outta the pram and blaming everyone else.

Makes BLM uncomfortable really and we all know thats racist to do!

Chris_Heilong

Cupatae wrote: »

Asians are kept as far away from this discussion as possible, as they take away 90% of the excuses and arguments BLM are making for the black community, imagine trying to spin the "poor hard done by minority victims of the big bad system" and then someone brings up Asians, makes things pretty awkward when you ve a successful minority that arent throwing toys outta the pram and blaming everyone else.

Makes BLM uncomfortable really and we all know thats racist to do!

It is far too inconvenient and disproves their entire world view which we and any sane person knows is a false world view, What will happen is they will start calling Asians white as that is their only option to continue the lies. Asians start out poor but put in the effort and try hard, they generally do not have a victim mentality or a white boogie man to blame when life gets hard.