BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

Richard Hillman

Asians prove that a good family structure and high expectations within that structure are all that matter.

Errashareesh

Tell me how wrote: »

There's two points to this First, it's not really downplaying it, it is putting it in to some sort of proportion and factoring in both A, the motivation behind the protests (widespread anger over several years amongst a community) and B, the volume of protests which have been held across virtually every city and state.

Secondly, in terms of the covid risk. Yes. It is an issue, but, many protesting at BLM marches continued to wear masks and B, there can be some argument for the justification of protesting such a fundamental thing as everyone being treated fairly versus protesting just to voice your anger at measures being put in place to try to protect people.

Big picture or not, smashing up people's businesses and jeopardising jobs - particularly with things being volatile as it is due to Covid - is despicable. And there absolutely are people downplaying/defending it on social media. It's got nothing to do with BLM or George Floyd. I saw a video of an African American man crying over his bar being destroyed; two African American women expressing bewilderment over the mantra of "black lives matter" when their shop got destroyed. My friend's brother's bar in Chicago is repeatedly getting windows broken, and they're barely staying afloat as it is, due to the pandemic. But hang on, it's being argued on Chicago media that white people deserve it as reparations. "Fair enough". How can that be ok?

You can think the above AND be horrified by what was done to George Floyd.

Tell me how

Cupatae wrote: »

Asians are kept as far away from this discussion as possible, as they take away 90% of the excuses and arguments BLM are making for the black community, imagine trying to spin the "poor hard done by minority victims of the big bad system" and then someone brings up Asians, makes things pretty awkward when you ve a successful minority that arent throwing toys outta the pram and blaming everyone else.

Makes BLM uncomfortable really and we all know thats racist to do!

Please explain how this is the case?

Also, in case you don't realise it, Asians don't quite have the same history in the US as the Black community does. As shown in Hong Kong, Asians are more than capable of activism when they feel they are being oppressed, where is the evidence that they have in any way a comparable experience as a community?

Tell me how

Errashareesh wrote: »

Big picture or not, smashing up people's businesses and jeopardising jobs - particularly with things being volatile as it is due to Covid - is despicable. And there absolutely are people downplaying/defending it on social media. It's got nothing to do with BLM or George Floyd. I saw a video of an African American man crying over his bar being destroyed; two African American women expressing bewilderment over the mantra of "black lives matter" when their shop got destroyed. My friend's brother's bar in Chicago is repeatedly getting windows broken, and they're barely staying afloat as it is, due to the pandemic. But hang on, it's being argued on Chicago media that white people deserve it as reparations. "Fair enough". How can that be ok?

I don't know what you expect me to say here. Yes, anyone losing their business or seeing it destroyed is not a good thing. But, activism, of any sort is only successful when it draws attention to a cause and that is why there are protests and when you mix protests, high emotions, and an opposition of sorts, tempers do rise and people strike out. And I again point out that the vast majority of protests and attendants are entirely trouble free.

Do you think the entire BLM movement is invalidated if a single window is broken on a protest march?

2u2me

Tell me how wrote: »

Please explain how this is the case?

Also, in case you don't realise it, Asians don't quite have the same history in the US as the Black community does. As shown in Hong Kong, Asians are more than capable of activism when they feel they are being oppressed, where is the evidence that they have in any way a comparable experience as a community?

Actual oppression is when you can get disappeared and no one asks any questions, or sent to forced labour camps, or get harvested for your juicy organs. It's a shame you belittle the Hong Kong struggle so easily.

Errashareesh

Tell me how wrote: »

I don't know what you expect me to say here. Yes, anyone losing their business or seeing it destroyed is not a good thing. But, activism, of any sort is only successful when it draws attention to a cause and that is why there are protests and when you mix protests, high emotions, and an opposition of sorts, tempers do rise and people strike out. And I again point out that the vast majority of protests and attendants are entirely trouble free.

Do you think the entire BLM movement is invalidated if a single window is broken on a protest march?

Loaded question. I never even implied that. Why would I? I actually said the opposite. My point is simply that criticism of destroying livelihoods is not a criticism of all protests/objections to the brutality inflicted on George Floyd, and that there's nothing wrong with finding such community destruction appalling, or that it's ok to dismiss/defend it.

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

Actual oppression is when you can get disappeared and no one asks any questions, or sent to forced labour camps, or get harvested for your juicy organs. It's a shame you belittle the Hong Kong struggle so easily.

A, I didn't belittle anything and I think if you look in to it the HK protests are not because of those activities.
B, IT's laughable that you suggest someone is belittling a group (which I wasn't) when you are going to such efforts to invalidate the concerns of a community which still experiences different treatment than others because of the colour of their skin.

Tell me how

Errashareesh wrote: »

Loaded question. I never even implied that. Why would I? I actually said the opposite. My point is simply that criticism of destroying livelihoods is not a criticism of all protests/objections to the brutality inflicted on George Floyd, and that there's nothing wrong with finding such community destruction appalling, or that it's ok to dismiss/defend it.

No one is arguing damage is a good thing. But it is worth asking where is the concern for the destroyed livelihoods of some who are feeling and experiencing oppression that there is for buildings/businesses who are being impacted much less severely, by and large.

Errashareesh

Tell me how wrote: »

No one is arguing damage is a good thing. But it is worth asking where is the concern for the destroyed livelihoods of some who are feeling and experiencing oppression that there is for buildings/businesses who are being impacted much less severely, by and large.

I don't think what I said was that puzzling. My point is merely that criticism of the looting does not mean criticism of all peaceful protests. People might not be saying that here but they sure are on Twitter.

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

Based on what evidence can you suggest the re-write as you have done here?

In the table below. Asians were approved for more money and a lower interest rate than Whites.




https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/10/blacks-and-hispanics-face-extra-challenges-in-getting-home-loans/

scroll down to Figure 7 in the PDF

https://www.bostonfed.org/publications/community-development-issue-briefs/2018/2016-mortgage-lending-trends-in-new-england.aspx

And speaking of Racism and Discrimination, Kamala Harris proposed a lovely idea about homeownership.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/06/us/politics/harris-essence-festival-2020-democrats.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The best part is.
The money would help cover down payments and closing costs for up to four million families or individuals, providing home buyers with up to $25,000 each.

I had to work and save to get my down payment and closing costs money
#Black privilege

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

A, I didn't belittle anything and I think if you look in to it the HK protests are not because of those activities.
B, IT's laughable that you suggest someone is belittling a group (which I wasn't) when you are going to such efforts to invalidate the concerns of a community which still experiences different treatment than others because of the colour of their skin.

What about George Floyd and his death suggests it was anything to do with his race?

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

Where is it indicated that this is the case?

Dumbing down
Getting rid of tests
what you might call 'reverse discrimination'
look at my post about differences in loan applications, notice anything?

stinkypinky

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think the entire BLM movement is invalidated if a single window is broken on a protest march?

Oh definitely not. It's not like you have BLM leaders encouraging people to loot because they're owed it. Stealing HD TV's and Nike shoes is really honouring the memory of George Floyd. But sure it's grand - the businesses have insurance. There's no downtime for the businesses and the insurance companies won't be forced to up the ante, money grows on trees, everyone's a winner!

https://twitter.com/ForAmerica/status/1293247869793771521

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

This image might help you. What you're saying is icecream is causing the sunburn with no evidence aside from them happening at the same time.

You have provided no evidence that there is any link between the protests and increased murders, aside from them happening at the same time. What you have shown is correlation not causation.

https://twitter.com/GorissenWim/status/1063080493879623680?s=20

It must be one of those crazy coincidences, that happened soon after the death of Saint George.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

What about George Floyd and his death suggests it was anything to do with his race?

The fact that it was another example in a long line of cases where disproportionate force by police officers resulted in the death of a Black Person.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

The fact that it was another example in a long line of cases where disproportionate force by police officers resulted in the death of a Black Person.

Why is race brought into it?

Is the death of a black person due to disproportionate force more disturbing than the death of any different race?

Tell me how

stinkypinky wrote: »

Oh definitely not. It's not like you have BLM leaders encouraging people to loot because they're owed it. Stealing HD TV's and Nike shoes is really honouring the memory of George Floyd. But sure it's grand - the businesses have insurance. There's no downtime for the businesses and the insurance companies won't be forced to up the ante, money grows on trees, everyone's a winner!

https://twitter.com/ForAmerica/status/1293247869793771521

Thats a single person from a single group in a single city. As you know, the BLM movement is most noticeable for the moment for not having a defined leadership, I wouldn't take her words as being the groups manifesto. In fact, on the BLM website, it makes no mention of such a policy (unsurprisingly) but does go through their views on what they are doing and why.

On a similar note, this guy, who is said to be a White Supremacist was clearly instigating violence at one of the early protests, you probably wouldn't therefore accept that this is evidence that all violence was instigated by similar shadow operators.

Umbrella Man

A masked man who was seen in a viral video smashing the windows of a south Minneapolis auto parts store during the George Floyd protests, earning him the moniker "Umbrella Man," is suspected of ties with a white supremacist group and sought to incite racial tension, police said.

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

I presumed the point was being made in relation to the financial or resource definition of the word equity.

It has 2 meanings. From Google.



Here is a site which provides a definition in the context of activism.



Given this context, I don't see how it can be suggested that they are looking for equality of outcome.

Thanks for the link.I love reading about.
Diversity, Inclusion and Equity.
Also known as DIE :eek:

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is race brought into it?

Probably because, there is a long line of cases where disproportionate force by police officers resulted in the death of a Black Person.

stinkypinky

Tell me how wrote: »

Thats a single person from a single group in a single city.

You can't defend it so you go down the route of blatant whataboutery.

She is a lead organizer for BLM in Chicago, Chicago being one of if not the biggest BLM stronghold of all the states, not some single person that you've disingenuously tried to play her off as. The entire press refers to her as a key organizer for BLM in Chicago.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lack-body-cameras-fuels-suspicion-chicago-shooting-72311616

Are you calling ABC news and the associated press liars?

Biafranlivemat

Cupatae wrote: »

Asians are kept as far away from this discussion as possible, as they take away 90% of the excuses and arguments BLM are making for the black community, imagine trying to spin the "poor hard done by minority victims of the big bad system" and then someone brings up Asians, makes things pretty awkward when you ve a successful minority that arent throwing toys outta the pram and blaming everyone else.

Makes BLM uncomfortable really and we all know thats racist to do!

Slightly Off Topic
A great way of Fcuking with people who complain discrimination and about white men, is to ask if they are talking about Gay or Straight.
Because Gay white men earn more than straight white men in the US.
You should see the expression of there faces.:)

stinkypinky

stinkypinky wrote: »

You can't defend it so you bring go down the route of blatant whataboutery.

She is a lead organizer for BLM in Chicago, Chicago being one of if not the biggest BLM stronghold of all the states, not some single person that you've disingenuously tried to play her off as. The entire press refers to her as a key organizer for BLM in Chicago.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lack-body-cameras-fuels-suspicion-chicago-shooting-72311616

Are you calling ABC news and the associated press liars?

People saying you can't judge BLM by the actions of a tiny few are looking to defund the police for the actions of a tiny few.

Tell me how

stinkypinky wrote: »

You can't defend it so you bring go down the route of blatant whataboutery.

She is a lead organizer for BLM in Chicago, Chicago being one of if not the biggest BLM stronghold of all the states, not some single person that you've disingenuously tried to play her off as.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lack-body-cameras-fuels-suspicion-chicago-shooting-72311616

Are you calling ABC news and the associated press liars?

Hang on, how is it whataboutery to give a comparable example of someone who was influencing riots in just as much way as this person? FFS, there's videos of them doing it and it was a police force that linked them to White Supremacist groups.

That's straight forward evidence.

Is telling that you want to focus on one but not the other. Also, did you actually intend to use as supporting evidence an article which again highlights suspicious police activity?

But on April, I have no doubt that she is an Organiser, that is not to say that she is part of a leadership group in the conventional sense where the words of one can be taken as the party message. Whenever such a person exists, for any body, they are widely referred to as a 'spokesperson' of not by an official party title such as chair/secretary/board member etc.

stinkypinky

Tell me how wrote: »

Hang on, how is it whataboutery to give a comparable example of someone who was influencing riots in just as much way as this person? FFS, there's videos of them doing it and it was a police force that linked them to White Supremacist groups.

That's straight forward evidence.

Is telling that you want to focus on one but not the other. Also, did you actually intend to use as supporting evidence an article which again highlights suspicious police activity?

But on April, I have no doubt that she is an Organiser, that is not to say that she is part of a leadership group in the conventional sense where the words of one can be taken as the party message. Whenever such a person exists, for any body, they are widely referred to as a 'spokesperson' of not by an official party title such as chair/secretary/board member etc.

You're talking absolute nonsense. I'd have better luck with the flat earthers.

Here I'll entertain you - if she's "only a key organiser for BLM" and not a "leader" - where is BLM's statement condemning what she said considering it gained heavy national news coverage?

Biafranlivemat

2u2me wrote: »

The difference between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity was what we were discussing.

The previous example showed how equity advocates prefer instead to solve the disparities at the level of outcome, By enacting equal pay legislation etc.. My point being that this is how they approach disparities.

Instead of addressing the real issues that cause disparities at the highest level between men and women; maternity leave, cultural differences, bell curve differences, differences in hours worked, etc.. the focus becomes about attempts to equalize.

When looking at 'executive roles' they're looking for the more successful, intelligent people I'm sure you'd agree.


If perhaps the top 10% consists of 90% male (like a lot of research shows) wouldn't it be ludicrous to equalize these positions by male/female and the pay that they receive?

Isn't it about attracting top talent when we're talking about the top positions? For decades the US and the Soviets wanted the best chess players, they were mostly men, just as they are today. The same research would show that the 'worst' positions are also held by men.

As I said; chopping legs off.

Example
Take a look at the Forbes US 100 list.
How many on the list are White and Male.
https://www.forbes.com/billionaires/

stinkypinky

stinkypinky wrote: »

You're talking absolute nonsense. I'd have better luck with the flat earthers.

Here I'll entertain you - if she's "only a key organiser for BLM" and not a "leader" - where is BLM's statement condemning what she said considering it gained heavy national news coverage?

BLM is a movement and not an organisation.

(Despite having a manifesto, organised marches and organisers)

stinkypinky

Deleted User wrote: »

BLM is a movement and not an organisation.

(Despite having a manifesto, organised marches and organisers)

Wonder where the money goes - it's certainly not going into black communities.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

People saying you can't judge BLM by the actions of a tiny few are looking to defund the police for the actions of a tiny few.

Police Members investigated

At least 85,000 law enforcement officers across the USA have been investigated or disciplined for misconduct over the past decade, an investigation by USA TODAY Network found.

The current police force is approx 670,000 so lets say 850,000 people have been officers over the same period. That's 10%.
Does that sound like a 'tiny few'?

By comparison, the NY Times estimates approx 20,000,000 people have attended BLM marches in the 6 weeks after his death, (therefore likely much more by now). So it would have to be up to 2M people who engaged in violence for it to be of a comparable figure? Do you think that this is likely to have happened?

Biafranlivemat

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

Example
Take a look at the Forbes US 100 list.
How many on the list are White and Male.
https://www.forbes.com/billionaires/

****.... Majority white America should probably not have majority white richest people.

Tell me how

stinkypinky wrote: »

You're talking absolute nonsense. I'd have better luck with the flat earthers.

Here I'll entertain you - if she's "only a key organiser for BLM" and not a "leader" - where is BLM's statement condemning what she said considering it gained heavy national news coverage?

Point me to the BLM national leadership team, similar to the GOP or the DNC?
As far as I am aware, such a group does not yet exist while what does exist is chapters in various locations which, I think operate largely autonomously.

I would also say, if this is a cogent plan amongst them, they really are doing very poorly at it aren't they given the 20M people who have marched and the comparative small amount of violence there has been on the vast majority of marches.