BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

Foxtrol

BattleCorp wrote: »

I can't, and I really mean I can't understand why people don't do what the cops tell them.

Cop tells me to stop, I stop. Cop tells me to dance a jig, I dance a jig. It's pretty simple really. Do what you are told and you stand a 99.99% of not getting shot.

There is a problem with cops being trigger happy but there is an equally big problem with people being stupid fcukers and not following lawful instructions.

Do what you are told and you'll live.

Can we not have both?

People do what cops say and cops actually do their job and not escalate situations to the point that these types of horrible situations aren't regular occurrences. It isn't hard.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you're saying you know for definite that there was no conscious or unconscious racism at play here? When did you get that super power?

That handy unconscious racism, where even if there's no evidence to support, it's still racism. Stating that there is a long history of black people killed by cops, while ignoring the equally long history of non black people being killed in the exact same circumstances is a special thing.

stinkypinky

You know what the cops should do to, ignore crime riddled black neighbourhoods and hangouts so that over time, arrests become more diverse and they'll no longer be accusations of over policing.

This is sarcasm by the way, but I'd bet a hot dollar the number of people who believe in what I wrote is > 0.

Manic Moran

Foxtrol wrote: »

Your evidence of a 'racism narrative' is the statement of the grieving family of the dead man prior to those videos being released?

https://www.sheboyganpress.com/story/news/2020/07/02/sheboygan-police-shooting-investigation-officer-involved-shooting-underway/5362790002/

Police said they couldn't release additional details about the man Thursday, but family members at the scene said he was 32-year-old Kevan Ruffin, who was Black. Some relatives said they believe race may have played a role in the shooting.

Sheriyah Appleton said she was Ruffin's cousin, too, and she believes that if he were not Black, he would still be alive.

"But because he was Black, he was considered as a threat from the beginning," she said.

I suspect he was considered a threat because he charged at a cop from across the street with two very large blades, personally.

I've never heard that name before and a quick google shows that there was a 100 peaceful person protest in his local protest when he was killed and that was it. The ACLU released a very measured statement

It was measured, yes, but why would the incident raise fresh questions about racial justice if there was no controversy related to shooting being affected by the race of the deceased?

The protest is also worth noting. Instead of protesting the state of the mental health system, which is the root cause of the shooting, instead they held signs like "No Racist Police nor ICE", "No Justice, no Peace", "Hate saves nothing", "Jail Killer Cops Now", "WI Worst state for racial equality", or "end racism by ending capitalism"

There was no time for an investigation, or apparently any care to facts. What mattered was a black man was shot by a cop, that was enough to hold a protest against what was perceived to be a racially motivated, un-necessary shooting.

stinkypinky wrote: »

You know what the cops should do to, ignore crime riddled black neighbourhoods and hangouts so that over time, arrests become more diverse and they'll no longer be accusations of over policing.

This is sarcasm by the way, but I'd bet a hot dollar the number of people who believe in what I wrote is > 0.

Something like that happened in 2018 after the Freddie Gray events in Baltimore.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/12/baltimore-police-not-noticing-crime-after-freddie-gray-wave-killings-followed/744741002/

BALTIMORE – Just before a wave of violence turned Baltimore into the nation’s deadliest big city, a curious thing happened to its police force: officers suddenly seemed to stop noticing crime.

Police officers reported seeing fewer drug dealers on street corners. They encountered fewer people who had open arrest warrants.

Police questioned fewer people on the street. They stopped fewer cars.

In the space of just a few days in spring 2015 – as Baltimore faced a wave of rioting after Freddie Gray, a black man, died from injuries he suffered in the back of a police van – officers in nearly every part of the city appeared to turn a blind eye to everyday violations. They still answered calls for help. But the number of potential violations they reported seeing themselves dropped by nearly half. It has largely stayed that way ever since.

[...]

“Immediately upon the riot, policing changed in Baltimore, and it changed very dramatically,” says Donald Norris, an emeritus professor at the University of Maryland Baltimore County, who reviewed USA TODAY's analysis. “The outcome of that change in policing has been a lot more crime in Baltimore, especially murders, and people are getting away with those murders.”

Police officials acknowledge the change. "In all candor, officers are not as aggressive as they once were, pre-2015. It’s just that fact," says acting Police Commissioner Gary Tuggle, who took command of Baltimore's police force in May.

stinkypinky

Manic Moran wrote: »

Something like that happened in 2018 after the Freddie Gray events in Baltimore.

For me that is cowardice of the highest order, not from the Police but from the moralless Politicians instructing them to behave in that manner. Crime and homicides skyrocketing? Fine - at least we won't have to deal with the political fallout from the mob.

It's not all that surprising we're seeing similar trends in recent times - it's probably the sole reason Trump has a shot at re-election in November.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That handy unconscious racism, where even if there's no evidence to support, it's still racism. Stating that there is a long history of black people killed by cops, while ignoring the equally long history of non black people being killed in the exact same circumstances is a special thing.

Research has found from policing practices right to sentencing have worse outcomes for black people but feel free to ignore that.

Protesters are asking for improvements in policing for everyone

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you're saying you know for definite that there was no conscious or unconscious racism at play here? When did you get that super power?

The fact that you think that I don't automatically think that any bad thing that happens to a black person is racism is my "superpower" speaks volumes.

If racism is your "go to" reasoning wherever bad things happen to black people are concerned is, in and of itself, racist.

Unconscious racism? Jesus Christ!!!

As a matter of interest, do you think white people wearing their hair in dreadlocks, or dressing up in "Indian/Native American" garb is cultural appropriation?

Foxtrol

Manic Moran wrote: »

https://www.sheboyganpress.com/story/news/2020/07/02/sheboygan-police-shooting-investigation-officer-involved-shooting-underway/5362790002/

Police said they couldn't release additional details about the man Thursday, but family members at the scene said he was 32-year-old Kevan Ruffin, who was Black. Some relatives said they believe race may have played a role in the shooting.

Sheriyah Appleton said she was Ruffin's cousin, too, and she believes that if he were not Black, he would still be alive.

"But because he was Black, he was considered as a threat from the beginning," she said.

I suspect he was considered a threat because he charged at a cop from across the street with two very large blades, personally.

So to disprove my point that you're using the comments of a grieving family as some sort of proven 'narrative' you quoted another family member

It was measured, yes, but why would the incident raise fresh questions about racial justice if there was no controversy related to shooting being affected by the race of the deceased?

The protest is also worth noting. Instead of protesting the state of the mental health system, which is the root cause of the shooting, instead they held signs like "No Racist Police nor ICE", "No Justice, no Peace", "Hate saves nothing", "Jail Killer Cops Now", "WI Worst state for racial equality", or "end racism by ending capitalism"

There was no time for an investigation, or apparently any care to facts. What mattered was a black man was shot by a cop, that was enough to hold a protest against what was perceived to be a racially motivated, un-necessary shooting.

It say more about how police have acted in the past that people are jumping to conclusions that they were wrong or trying to cover things up.

Something like that happened in 2018 after the Freddie Gray events in Baltimore.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/12/baltimore-police-not-noticing-crime-after-freddie-gray-wave-killings-followed/744741002/

BALTIMORE – Just before a wave of violence turned Baltimore into the nation’s deadliest big city, a curious thing happened to its police force: officers suddenly seemed to stop noticing crime.

Police officers reported seeing fewer drug dealers on street corners. They encountered fewer people who had open arrest warrants.

Police questioned fewer people on the street. They stopped fewer cars.

In the space of just a few days in spring 2015 – as Baltimore faced a wave of rioting after Freddie Gray, a black man, died from injuries he suffered in the back of a police van – officers in nearly every part of the city appeared to turn a blind eye to everyday violations. They still answered calls for help. But the number of potential violations they reported seeing themselves dropped by nearly half. It has largely stayed that way ever since.

[...]

“Immediately upon the riot, policing changed in Baltimore, and it changed very dramatically,” says Donald Norris, an emeritus professor at the University of Maryland Baltimore County, who reviewed USA TODAY's analysis. “The outcome of that change in policing has been a lot more crime in Baltimore, especially murders, and people are getting away with those murders.”

Police officials acknowledge the change. "In all candor, officers are not as aggressive as they once were, pre-2015. It’s just that fact," says acting Police Commissioner Gary Tuggle, who took command of Baltimore's police force in May.

If cops decide they aren't going to do their job because they are being held to account we need different people as cops.

In general, what are you trying to prove here? It is akin to pointing to the times the RUC/British Army acted correctly in the north to deflect from the times they acted terribly.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

The fact that you think that I don't automatically think that any bad thing that happens to a black person is racism is my "superpower" speaks volumes.

If racism is your "go to" reasoning wherever bad things happen to black people are concerned is, in and of itself, racist.

Unconscious racism? Jesus Christ!!!

As a matter of interest, do you think white people wearing their hair in dreadlocks, or dressing up in "Indian/Native American" garb is cultural appropriation?

I literally posted that I don't know what part racism played in this - it could be zero it could be 100% race based.

At this stage anyone, like you, ruling it in or out is talking nonsense.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

Research has found from policing practices right to sentencing have worse outcomes for black people but feel free to ignore that.

Protesters are asking for improvements in policing for everyone

You were referring to black people being shot by police, yes? Research has shown that black and Hispanic officers are more likely to use deadly force on black suspects. For every incident of a black person being shot/ killed that stirs outrage and protest, you can find a similar one for a white person that received little to no coverage.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You were referring to black people being shot by police, yes?

I wouldn't limit it to being shot, we've seen many other ways that cops have killed people outside of shooting.

Research has shown that black and Hispanic officers are more likely to use deadly force on black suspects.

You are aware that people can have biases against people of their own race/nationality/gender/etc...

For every incident of a black person being shot/ killed that stirs outrage and protest, you can find a similar one for a white person that received little to no coverage.

Are you just annoyed white people aren't getting enough attention? Seems pretty fragile, especially as protesters are demanding improvement to police practices that would only help people of all races.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

I wouldn't limit it to being shot, we've seen many other ways that cops have killed people outside of shooting.



You are aware that people can have biases against people of their own race/nationality/gender/etc...



Are you just annoyed white people aren't getting enough attention? Seems pretty fragile, especially as protesters are demanding improvement to police practices that would only help people of all races.

I'm tired of the narrative that looks to present police as being systematically racist against black people. Ignore all facts surrounding police shootings etc, ignore facts about violence in black communities. Ignore the statements and actions of those in the broad BLM movement, and their hatred towards the white community. It's always because of racism and the fault of white people.

Time and again, there is an incident, folks jump to a conclusion. Protests and violence ensue. An investigation oocurs and shows it be a nuanced situation, and not racially motivated.

Snake Plisken

BLM/Antifa thugs trying to kill people again and again...

https://twitter.com/after_theaction/status/1298210964018429952?s=19

WrenBoy

Snake Plisken wrote: »

BLM/Antifa thugs trying to kill people again and again...

https://twitter.com/after_theaction/status/1298210964018429952?s=19

At the end theres a woman telling them he has to respect his attackers. Nuke it, its beyond saving.

Jimbob1977

I spent a summer in Kenosha back in 1998.

It's a city about the size of Galway or Limerick, with a beautiful Lake Michigan setting.

Kenosha is a mix of blue collar and middle class families, largely of Italian, Polish, German and Hispanic stock. It's not a "rust belt" town, but it's not glitzy or pretentious either. The kind of city you'd expect in a run-of the-mill American TV series.

While I am advised that ghettos exist, they cover small geographic areas and most people have no reason to visit them.

I still know some people over there. They understand the seriousness of Sunday's shooting and the right to protest. However, they can't understand why the police and National Guard don't engage the rioters. It's like a strategic withdrawal.

While there's lots of bravado about citizens arming themselves and facing down the troublemakers, they are scared.

Night Three of violence is expected again tonight and businesses are already ruined downtown. Trump was not polling well in Wisconsin, yet he has a big chance now. The Governor is seen as soft on crime.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

I wouldn't limit it to being shot, we've seen many other ways that cops have killed people outside of shooting.



You are aware that people can have biases against people of their own race/nationality/gender/etc...



Are you just annoyed white people aren't getting enough attention? Seems pretty fragile, especially as protesters are demanding improvement to police practices that would only help people of all races.

Lol.

Fragile white people eh? They're the worst.

You are a good example that "people can have biases against people of their own race/nationality/gender/etc" as you stated above.

Having seen the additional footage, and reading about the warrant which was out for his arrest, the only thing the police officer did wrong was waste that amount of bullets on the scumbag.

mynamejeff

WrenBoy wrote: »

At the end theres a woman telling them he has to respect his attackers. Nuke it, its beyond saving.

the stupidity and ignorance of these people , attack a old man for trying to protect his property then claim its not the attackers fault rather the victims because he is white.

racist pigs

1800_Ladladlad

WrenBoy wrote: »

At the end theres a woman telling them he has to respect his attackers. Nuke it, its beyond saving.

"why you running up on people foh"

Meanwhile, CNN: fragile white male attacks peaceful protesters with deadly weapon.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'm tired of the narrative that looks to present police as being systematically racist against black people. Ignore all facts surrounding police shootings etc, ignore facts about violence in black communities. Ignore the statements and actions of those in the broad BLM movement, and their hatred towards the white community. It's always because of racism and the fault of white people.

Time and again, there is an incident, folks jump to a conclusion. Protests and violence ensue. An investigation oocurs and shows it be a nuanced situation, and not racially motivated.

I'm not ignoring any facts, the people blaming the victim (as they always do) are the ones doing that.

If anyone was caught putting 7 bullets in the back of a cop you'd be damn sure that person wouldn't be walking the streets and an investigation be said to be in the 'early stages' and you wouldnt be asking for an assessment of a 'nuanced situation'.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol.

Fragile white people eh? They're the worst.

You are a good example that "people can have biases against people of their own race/nationality/gender/etc" as you stated above.

I agree, people that cry 'what about white people' are the worst.

'Lol'... :rolleyes:

Foxtrol

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

I spent a summer in Kenosha back in 1998.

It's a city about the size of Galway or Limerick, with a beautiful Lake Michigan setting.

Kenosha is a mix of blue collar and middle class families, largely of Italian, Polish, German and Hispanic stock. It's not a "rust belt" town, but it's not glitzy or pretentious either. The kind of city you'd expect in a run-of the-mill American TV series.

While I am advised that ghettos exist, they cover small geographic areas and most people have no reason to visit them.

I still know some people over there. They understand the seriousness of Sunday's shooting and the right to protest. However, they can't understand why the police and National Guard don't engage the rioters. It's like a strategic withdrawal.

While there's lots of bravado about citizens arming themselves and facing down the troublemakers, they are scared.

Night Three of violence is expected again tonight and businesses are already ruined downtown. Trump was not polling well in Wisconsin, yet he has a big chance now. The Governor is seen as soft on crime.

Good input from the ground.

Anyone running to Trump over this is an idiot. He is the current president and this is happening again and again and he has shown no interest in stopping the cause of these situations (the police) nor the ability to stop the riots the result from them. They are just falling for 'tough talk'.

mynamejeff

Foxtrol wrote: »

Good input from the ground.

Anyone running to Trump over this is an idiot. He is the current president and this is happening again and again and he has shown no interest in stopping the cause of these situations (the police) nor the ability to stop the riots the result from them. They are just falling for 'tough talk'.

the police aren't rioting

Foxtrol

mynamejeff wrote: »

the police aren't rioting

Well I can point you to several videos over the last few weeks that look very much like the police were rioting.

Even if you go by that claim, the police are out there killing folk and being allowed to walk the streets, when no one else would be.

We saw plenty of examples in the north of how RUC/army actions caused 'riots'. I'm sure you were excusing the RUC/army too.

Outlaw Pete

Snake Plisken wrote: »

BLM/Antifa thugs trying to kill people again and again...

https://twitter.com/after_theaction/status/1298210964018429952?s=19

Peaceful protests my ass. These scumbags are mostly leftists who are trying to bring anarchy to America so they can blame Trump.

Overheal

Snake Plisken wrote: »

BLM/Antifa thugs trying to kill people again and again...

https://twitter.com/after_theaction/status/1298210964018429952?s=19

Ah yes that nefarious Antifa terror cell in bumhicksville Wisconsin.

Does slapping ANTIFA on something make it sound more menacing to you? It makes your contribution look dumber to me.

Outlaw Pete

The only ones whose contribution looks dumb are those that see such violence and don't condemn it but instead jump to the defense of scumbags.

Foxtrol

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Peaceful protests my ass. These scumbags are mostly leftists who are trying to bring anarchy to America so they can blame Trump.

Are you saying the leftists are the cops that keep making a complete mess of situations and attempting to kill people, which then causes further violence ??

Overheal

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

The only ones whose contribution looks dumb are those that see such violence and don't condemn it but instead jump to the defense of scumbags.

Blow it out your virtue-hole tbph.

Yeah, rioting is bad, but have you seen how cops feel enabled to shoot a black man 7 times in the back?

Foxtrol

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

The only ones whose contribution looks dumb are those that see such violence and don't condemn it but instead jump to the defense of scumbags.

Ah yes, the good old deflection tactic of 'I can't really defend what the police did so look over there at how terribly the citizens responded to it'.

Straight out of the British government PR when dealing with what the RUC/Army did in the north