BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

AbusesToilets

SozBbz wrote: »

Well white people account for over 76% of the US population, while black people are just over 13%.

So if as you say, there is an equal number, then black people do indeed have a problem.

Source - https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US

The obvious rebuttal to that is the representation of blacks in the murder and violent crimes statistics. Black and Hispanic officers are more likely to shoot black suspects than white officers. Does that fit a narrative of systemic racism?

rossie1977

During NYCs stop and frisk black men were stopped 6 times as much as white men.

You are far far more likely to be pulled over while driving if you are a black male. Trevor Noah mentioned on his show he had been stopped dozens of times by police the first year he arrived in America.

There are MORE black men per capita in US jails than there were black men in South African jails at the peak of apartheid..that stat alone is insane.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

Then you should be supporting BLM demanding police reform.

They aren't demanding separate rules on how police deal with different races. They aren't saying they want to ban choke holds for black suspects but the cops can keep choking whites.

It seems like BLM are much more directed in helping all communities than you are, where your focus is just on invalidating the perspective of the black community.

I'm fully support of reform for the legal system (can't call it the Justice system, given how prejudiced against the poor it is).

If BLM were so concerned with helping their communities, why are they utterly absent in places like Chicago, protesting the violence there? Why do they only appear when there is a death by a black person at the hands of police, yet absent when a white person dies in similar circumstances?

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The obvious rebuttal to that is the representation of blacks in the murder and violent crimes statistics. Black and Hispanic officers are more likely to shoot black suspects than white officers. Does that fit a narrative of systemic racism?

But that's all because of whites and slavery. Blacks never had a chance. It's all systemic.

Rinse and repeat.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The obvious rebuttal to that is the representation of blacks in the murder and violent crimes statistics. Black and Hispanic officers are more likely to shoot black suspects than white officers. Does that fit a narrative of systemic racism?

Do you want to open the gates to how poorly black people are treated when it gets to trial?

Black people are significant more likely to proven to be falsely convicted of a crime while also seeing significantly longer sentences than a white person found guilty of the same crime. Throw in the proven racist police practices over the decades and the ridiculous bail laws that have a worse impact on minority communities, which means people will do less time if they admit to a crime they didn't do than stay in jail to await their day in court.

Glinda

Well, it is possible to have more than one important discussion happening at a time. If your real complaint is the amount of media time being given to BLM, that's a separate issue, and not answerable by campaigning on WLM or ALM.

And the suggestion that climate change or other global issues not getting enough attention is the reason why people object to BLM doesn't hold up - those chanting 'white lives matter' are self-evidently not climate activists or supporters of aid programmes in Yemen.

Calls of WLM or ALM are coming from two types of people, people who are worried that black people are somehow trying to say that white lives don't matter (often these people aren't very familiar with the discussion, or have had fears whipped up by the second type) and people who are racist and want to keep the power structures in place that damage black people (even though these are very damaging for everyone else too), because they have something to lose.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'm fully support of reform for the legal system (can't call it the Justice system, given how prejudiced against the poor it is).

Then you should be supporting BLM rather than trying to make pedantic points based on garbage data.

If BLM were so concerned with helping their communities, why are they utterly absent in places like Chicago, protesting the violence there? Why do they only appear when there is a death by a black person at the hands of police, yet absent when a white person dies in similar circumstances?

Can you not see the fundamental difference between in a murder committed by a criminal in a community and a murder carried out by someone given powers by the state?

I suppose you see terrorist murders in the north as being the same as the acts carried out by British forces on Bloody Sunday.

suicide_circus

Deleted User wrote: »

Apologies if someone has made this point already;

The reason for it being 'Black Lives Matter', instead of 'All Lives matter', is that, after a long history of white people in charge, we don't need to fight for our place at the table.

Complaining about the movement being only about 'black lives' is like complaining that there's no Straight Pride parade.

Of course people saying all or white lives matter are being disingenuous.

But then, BLM are also being disingenuous.

If their aim was the preservation of black lives they would be looking at the primary causes of fatality in the african american community such as higher rate of obesity and the mind boggling homicide/murder rates.

Removing the police and dismantling the family unit will not preserve black lives, quite the opposite.

They are a hard left political group. The hard right has some of those too.

SozBbz

Foxtrol wrote: »

Do you want to open the gates to how poorly black people are treated when it gets to trial?

Black people are significant more likely to proven to be falsely convicted of a crime while also seeing significantly longer sentences than a white person found guilty of the same crime. Throw in the proven racist police practices over the decades and the ridiculous bail laws that have a worse impact on minority communities, which means people will do less time if they admit to a crime they didn't do than stay in jail to await their day in court.

+1 to All of this.

Instead of contradicting my point @ Abuses Toilets, you've actually brother up other areas in which systemic racism impacts on the black community.

AbusesToilets

[QUOTE=Foxtrol

;113896275]Then you should be supporting BLM rather than trying to make pedantic points based on garbage data.

Why must I support BLM in order to be for judicial reform? Is the black experience the only valid one by which to view the system? The main determining factor when it comes to the legal system is money, as in whether you can afford competent representation. It's not specific to skin colour.

Can you not see the fundamental difference between in a murder committed by a criminal in a community and a murder carried out by someone given powers by the state?

I suppose you see terrorist murders in the north as being the same as the acts carried out by British forces on Bloody Sunday.

Surely death is death, or is the value of a black life only in it's ability to be used as tool in the racial struggle?

rossie1977

Nobody is calling for removal of police. That's nonsense being spread on Fox News or Youtube. Reform doesn't mean removal.

Far left ideals require strong policing not weak. Look at China, look at North Korea, Russia or Eastern Europe under communism, police states all.

rossie1977

The American justice system and policing need a huge overhaul. Right now whole system is broken.

No other developed country on Earth will something like this happen because a child takes a $1 toy out of a shop

Irish Praetorian

Foxtrol wrote: »

Do you want to open the gates to how poorly black people are treated when it gets to trial?

Black people are significant more likely to proven to be falsely convicted of a crime while also seeing significantly longer sentences than a white person found guilty of the same crime. Throw in the proven racist police practices over the decades and the ridiculous bail laws that have a worse impact on minority communities, which means people will do less time if they admit to a crime they didn't do than stay in jail to await their day in court.

Could I trouble you for a few sources on these two? It's just I watch these debates go back and forth and bit without much progress whilst this point of yours seems particularly intriguing.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Why must I support BLM in order to be for judicial reform? Is the black experience the only valid one by which to view the system?

You've stated your concerns for white people being shot by the police.

If you support reforms that they are seeking then it seems completely against your interests to be so aggressive against them.

It leads me to believe you either 1) don't really care about cops killing people or 2) your issue with BLM/black community/own fragility is greater than your feeling towards the cops killing people.

The main determining factor when it comes to the legal system is money, as in whether you can afford competent representation. It's not specific to skin colour.

You can say the main factor is wealth but poverty is much more prevalent in one community than another, a major part due to slavery and segregation etc

And the average black family's net worth is 10 times less than a white family.

As you're a Patriots fan, in Boston it is even worse - the average net worth of a white family is $247,500, while the average net worth for a black family is $8. Yes, $8.

Surely death is death, or is the value of a black life only in it's ability to be used as tool in the racial struggle?

A murder by a person the government gives power to is very different than by a random criminal.

Government is much more likely to bow to public pressure than a criminal.

I'm the one that has an issue with cops murdering anyone and it is one of the reasons why I support police reform and BLM. You seem to only see black deaths as a point scoring tool.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

You've stated your concerns for white people being shot by the police.

If you support reforms that they are seeking then it seems completely against your interests to be so aggressive against them.

It leads me to believe you either 1) don't really care about cops killing people or 2) your issue with BLM/black community/own fragility is greater than your feeling towards the cops killing people.

Ah White Fragility, that equivalent to the Trial by Water. No matter the answer, it serves as evidence to support views of racism. My objection to BLM is that it's messaging is one of division, of segregation. It's one of with us or against us, there's no room for careful examination of the issues, or entertaining alternative narratives. Any deviation from their groupthink is evidence of racism.

You can say the main factor is wealth but poverty is much more prevalent in one community than another, a major part due to slavery and segregation etc

And the average black family's net worth is 10 times less than a white family.

As you're a Patriots fan, in Boston it is even worse - the average net worth of a white family is $247,500, while the average net worth for a black family is $8. Yes, $8.

Wealth inequality is a universal issue, and one where the Black community has been consistently targeted for decades. You and I would be in violent agreement on the need to address that. It's all connected together, Red lining, leading to decreased wealth generational and property values, leading to poorer educational opportunities. Tied to the war on drugs impacting Black communities, in service to the profiteering off the prison industry, all swirling together.

A murder by a person the government gives power to is very different than by a random criminal.

Government is much more likely to bow to public pressure than a criminal.

I'm the one that has an issue with cops murdering anyone and it is one of the reasons why I support police reform and BLM. You seem to only see black deaths as a point scoring tool.

Murder is terrible in any circumstance, no one is arguing against that premise. Improving policing is a goal everyone should be in favor of, but that doesn't mean demonising police or framing them an intrinsically racist. BLM's messaging wants to portray the issue as one of systemic racism, there's no nuance to it. Nor is there near the energy to protest or highlight far greater instances of black deaths relating to crime in their communities. Why is that? If you were to look at in purely sterile terms, surely one ought to focus on the situations that lead to the most deaths?

iamstop

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Right,


I have just read this article, and to be honest, either it is Really badly worded, or it is telling us to keep quiet and know our place.


https://news.sky.com/story/the-misconceptions-behind-the-white-lives-matter-banner-12013727


Can someone clarify the meaning of this for us normal people?

Are you actually that tone deaf OP? He explains it in clear, present day English. What part are you struggling with? Maybe I can put it in even simpler terms for you? Maybe if a fellow white person explains it to you you might have a better job of understanding?

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Some aspects I'm very supportive of. The protest in general I'm very supportive of. The police free zones are certainly getting a lot of publicity and that's great.

Obviously it's not a realistic long term goal and it's not something that I'd support bring generalised to the rest if the country. It's a great point of protest though. So, yes and no. On balance, yes. Great work is being done.

So "on balance", the people being shot and killed is worth it and "on balance" it's great.



Interesting.

yourdeadwright

90% of people or more don't understand that the BLM movement is not quit what it seems,
The message of equal rights for black people is just a small part of what they are about, That part is what gets people on board and gets them funding but at heart they are an extreme left movement of Marxists,
In a way the have tricked the, avarage man and women on the street, and done it amazingly well,

yourdeadwright

yourdeadwright wrote: »

90% of people or more don't understand that the BLM movement is not quit what it seems,
The message of equal rights for black people is just a small part of what they are about, That part is what gets people on board and gets them funding but at heart they are an extreme left movement of Marxists,
In a way the have tricked the, avarage man and women on the street, and done it amazingly well,

Tricked/brainwashed/bullied

Silentcorner

yourdeadwright wrote: »

90% of people or more don't understand that the BLM movement is not quit what it seems,
The message of equal rights for black people is just a small part of what they are about, That part is what gets people on board and gets them funding but at heart they are an extreme left movement of Marxists,
In a way the have tricked the, avarage man and women on the street, and done it amazingly well,

If you think of the tools of communication available to all of us today, the amount of news content and it's delivery method we are primed for conditioning....it's gone into 5th gear over the last number of years and it is threatening stability in some very big cities in the US in particular.

This is modern day hysteria, people succumbing to repeated emotive negative content....not the first time in history that has happened.

AbusesToilets

BLM, and it's parallels on the opposite side, are convenient stalking horses for the controlling power. Keep the peasants fighting each other, so they don't notice their futures being sold out from under them.

How many white ardent supporters of black lives matter would gladly put their money where their mouth is and step down from their job in order to let a person of colour (maybe the phrase acceptable) take their place?

Rockbeast2

Deleted User wrote: »

How many white ardent supporters of black lives matter would gladly put their money where their mouth is and step down from their job in order to let a person of colour (maybe the phrase acceptable) take their place?

Trust me, any White actor that stepped away from a role only did so after sitting down with PR and Management teams and running a cost-benefit analysis on loss of income vs Good PR and new opportunities as a result of doing so. None will be out of pocket for long.

Strangely, I don't actually see too many black people calling for more representation in STEM fields.

It appears that celebrity/influence and politics/power are the careers in demand.

Time for Whites to demand proportionate representation in basketball, maybe? lol

4068ac1elhodqr

Tis all very coincidental with a rather big election, of course the Democrats across the pond are posted as the saviour of the ethnic and downtrodden.
Just don't ask what Joe's taxation (40% cough cough) policies will do to small man, small businesses, and thus the afore mentioned will suffer more.

Heard a rumour that Chinese money (not to mention the default bad guys such as Soros), are behind much of it.
China was played hard by the deal maker, Donny already rewrote the NTA and made Mexico's troops guard their border for a change.
Another 5 months of the noisey minority to put up with by the looks of things.

Rockbeast2

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Trust me, any White actor that stepped away from a role only did so after sitting down with PR and Management teams and running a cost-benefit analysis on loss of income vs Good PR and new opportunities as a result of doing so. None will be out of pocket for long.

Strangely, I don't actually see too many black people calling for more representation in STEM fields.

It appears that celebrity/influence and politics/power are the careers in demand.

Time for Whites to demand proportionate representation in basketball, maybe? lol

Oh I know the actors would.

I'm just wondering how many people in here, people clamouring for representative employment would gladly hand up their job to someone less qualified based on their skin colour.

Rockbeast2

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh I know the actors would.

I'm just wondering how many people in here, people clamouring for representative employment would gladly hand up their job to someone less qualified based on their skin colour.

It's Boards so you probably would find one or two martyrs who actually would!

"Someone less qualified"

I would be a big supporter if someone started a Black Education Matters movement. Probably be called racist for doing so.

In reality, lack of education leads to poverty leads to crime.

BEM is what needs to be addressed.

Rockbeast2

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

It's Boards so you probably would find one or two martyrs who actually would!

"Someone less qualified"

I would be a big supporter if someone started a Black Education Matters movement. Probably be called racist for doing so.

In reality, lack of education leads to poverty leads to crime.

BEM is what needs to be addressed.

I disagree. Some traditionally uneducated people are some of the brightest and industrious people I have ever met.

And in the Irish context, do you think black people are uneducated? That is not in any way my experience.

Chris_Heilong

yourdeadwright wrote: »

90% of people or more don't understand that the BLM movement is not quit what it seems,
The message of equal rights for black people is just a small part of what they are about, That part is what gets people on board and gets them funding but at heart they are an extreme left movement of Marxists,
In a way the have tricked the, avarage man and women on the street, and done it amazingly well,

Its all in the name really, they were genius coming up with a name like that ads most people are far too lazy to do any research themselves and take it at face value, I am sure if the Nazi party only started this year but had a name like 'Spread Love not Hate' then a lot of the same people would be signing up and defending criticism towards them.

Foxtrol

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Could I trouble you for a few sources on these two? It's just I watch these debates go back and forth and bit without much progress whilst this point of yours seems particularly intriguing.

Sure.

On wrongful convictions - http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race_and_Wrongful_Convictions.pdf

'African-American prisoners who are convicted of murder are about 50% more likely to be innocent than other convicted murderers'

The convictions that led to murder exonerations with black defendants were 22% more likely to include misconduct by police officers than those with white defendants.

Judging from exonerations, a black prisoner serving time for sexual assault is threeand-a-half times more likely to be innocent than a white sexual assault convict.

On length of sentence comes straight from the government - https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-differences-sentencing

Black male offenders continued to receive longer sentences than similarly situated White male offenders. Black male offenders received sentences on average 19.1 percent longer than similarly situated White male offenders

Irish Praetorian

Foxtrol wrote: »

Sure.

On wrongful convictions - http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race_and_Wrongful_Convictions.pdf


On length of sentence comes straight from the government - https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-differences-sentencing

I'm much obliged to you for these, a nice bit of light reading before bedtime