BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

Rockbeast2

Deleted User wrote: »

I disagree. Some traditionally uneducated people are some of the brightest and industrious people I have ever met.

And in the Irish context, do you think black people are uneducated? That is not in any way my experience.

"Some traditionally uneducated people"

"Some" being the operative word. A standard primary/secondary/tertiary education will produce the best results if you want to develop productive citizens outside sport and some artistic fields.

WRT to black education in Ireland, I'm not familiar enough in my social setting to give a definitive answer. I know they are presented with the opportunity to be educated.

I know one couple, both teachers in North Dublin, her in Primary and him in Secondary. She tells me that for the black kids with fluent English there is absolutely no difference in ability or enthusiasm compared to the white kids. Unfortunately, he tells me that many of the same kids, nearly always males, have started to drift from education when they reach him...

That's just what they tell me their experience is. I can't say.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Ah White Fragility, that equivalent to the Trial by Water. No matter the answer, it serves as evidence to support views of racism. My objection to BLM is that it's messaging is one of division, of segregation. It's one of with us or against us, there's no room for careful examination of the issues, or entertaining alternative narratives. Any deviation from their groupthink is evidence of racism.

There are plenty of responses that don't show fragility but your response of screaming 'what about white people' isn't one of them.

Wealth inequality is a universal issue, and one where the Black community has been consistently targeted for decades. You and I would be in violent agreement on the need to address that. It's all connected together, Red lining, leading to decreased wealth generational and property values, leading to poorer educational opportunities. Tied to the war on drugs impacting Black communities, in service to the profiteering off the prison industry, all swirling together.

Agreed, which makes your response to me seem so illogical.

You're agreeing that their house is on fire but are demanding the fire department pour on all the houses equally.

Murder is terrible in any circumstance, no one is arguing against that premise. Improving policing is a goal everyone should be in favor of, but that doesn't mean demonising police or framing them an intrinsically racist. BLM's messaging wants to portray the issue as one of systemic racism, there's no nuance to it. Nor is there near the energy to protest or highlight far greater instances of black deaths relating to crime in their communities. Why is that? If you were to look at in purely sterile terms, surely one ought to focus on the situations that lead to the most deaths?

Because, I'll say it again, criminals aren't employees of the state. You don't vote for their boss and you can't call their office to complain. How are you not getting that difference?

Foxtrol

yourdeadwright wrote: »

90% of people or more don't understand that the BLM movement is not quit what it seems,
The message of equal rights for black people is just a small part of what they are about, That part is what gets people on board and gets them funding but at heart they are an extreme left movement of Marxists,
In a way the have tricked the, avarage man and women on the street, and done it amazingly well,

And the majority of those people are sensible enough to understand that supporting one element of a group's policies does not mean you must support all of their beliefs.

Because you might want a united Ireland doesn't mean you must agree with Sinn Fein's economic policies.

There are also hundreds, maybe thousands, of groups that use the slogan/chant BLM that have nothing to do with BLM

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

How many white ardent supporters of black lives matter would gladly put their money where their mouth is and step down from their job in order to let a person of colour (maybe the phrase acceptable) take their place?

So you can't support BLM on police reform without having to give up your job?

Sounds like some next level thin edge of the wedge paranoid nonsense.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

There are plenty of responses that don't show fragility but your response of screaming 'what about white people' isn't one of them.

When have I done that? I've laid my reasons for not supporting the BLM organisation. Ones you haven't addressed, I might add.

Agreed, which makes your response to me seem so illogical.

You're agreeing that their house is on fire but are demanding the fire department pour on all the houses equally.

Again, I don't agree with the supposition that BLM are purely motivated by a goal of equality. I feel they are looking for social primacy, in addition to their Marxist views. I also do not agree with the idea that Law Enforcement in the US is systemically racist.

Because, I'll say it again, criminals aren't employees of the state. You don't vote for their boss and you can't call their office to complain. How are you not getting that difference?

That distinction isn't relevant to the point I was making. If a police officer has made a wrongful killing, then there already exists a structure to address that in the courts.

BLM are conspicuously quiet when it comes to addressing the issues of violence in the Black community. Surely if Black Lives Matter, and the majority of Black lives being lost are as a result of criminal activity in your community, then that would be the primary area of your focus.

yourdeadwright

Foxtrol wrote: »

And the majority of those people are sensible enough to understand that supporting one element of a group's policies does not mean you must support all of their beliefs.

Because you might want a united Ireland doesn't mean you must agree with Sinn Fein's economic policies.

There are also hundreds, maybe thousands, of groups that use the slogan/chant BLM that have nothing to do with BLM

You just proved my point Hundreds or thousands of groups use there slogan of BLM, Thus hiding them from plain view and making your average punter completely unaware of the true cause

Chris_Heilong

Terry Crews came out with some very sensible comments on twitter, he hints at the black supremacist elements that the BLM movement has but was attacked by many BLM supporters posting racist things to him. I guess they will view any criticism as an attack even if it comes from a black man.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you can't support BLM on police reform without having to give up your job?

Sounds like some next level thin edge of the wedge paranoid nonsense.

I never said that. I asked if you would be prepared to lose your job in order to give a person of colour your opportunity. If not, why not?

Or is it a case that you believe more black people should have opportunities that you think they are systemically deprived of, just as long as it doesn't impact you?

Do you believe in positive discrimination?

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

When have I done that? I've laid my reasons for not supporting the BLM organisation. Ones you haven't addressed, I might add.

People pointed out cops killing black people and you responded with pointing out cops killing white people.

Again, I don't agree with the supposition that BLM are purely motivated by a goal of equality. I feel they are looking for social primacy, in addition to their Marxist views. I also do not agree with the idea that Law Enforcement in the US is systemically racist.

We aren't voting them into power, you can support elements of what they want to do.

I don't think you can prove that Law Enforcement isn't systemically racist and it is an issue with how they deal with poverty is a problem.

I'd rather not resist or hold up police reform because we don't agree on the 'why' it needs reform.

That distinction isn't relevant to the point I was making. If a police officer has made a wrongful killing, then there already exists a structure to address that in the courts.

But it doesn't. The lack of a definition of force, cops protecting other cops, along with the likes of qualified immunity make it nearly impossible for cops to be held accountable.

All of those things BLM is trying to change.

BLM are conspicuously quiet when it comes to addressing the issues of violence in the Black community. Surely if Black Lives Matter, and the majority of Black lives being lost are as a result of criminal activity in your community, then that would be the primary area of your focus.

Again, one is government run and one is the criminals.

Are you saying everyone that demanded/protested for a bloody sunday inquiry was wrong because they didn't demand the same for every terrorist death in the north? Many more people were killed by terrorists than British Army so they should have focused on their community...

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

I never said that. I asked if you would be prepared to lose your job in order to give a person of colour your opportunity. If not, why not?

Or is it a case that you believe more black people should have opportunities that you think they are systemically deprived of, just as long as it doesn't impact you?

Do you believe in positive discrimination?

You're asking a question that no one else significant* has ever said either.

I also believe Catholics were systematically discriminated against by the British government in the North during the troubles, including mistreatment by the British Army and the RUC. Are you going to ask me to give them my job also?

*I have to add that significant caveat as posters with a similar view as you tend to be extremely paranoid about random posts/articles on twitter by nobodies

southstar

Foxtrol wrote: »

There are plenty of responses that don't show fragility but your response of screaming 'what about white people' isn't one of them.



Agreed, which makes your response to me seem so illogical.

You're agreeing that their house is on fire but are demanding the fire department pour on all the houses equally.



Because, I'll say it again, criminals aren't employees of the state. You don't vote for their boss and you can't call their office to complain. How are you not getting that difference?

No they call the police who put themselves at considerable risk...except in Seattle perhaps..funny how that worked out.
You might also take an inward look into your own communities and stop buying into the political self serving hustle that presents you with bogeymen to rail at.
Not the whole issue for sure...but tactics that have empowered chancers for decades

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

You're asking a question that no one else significant* has ever said either.

I also believe Catholics were systematically discriminated against by the British government in the North during the troubles, including mistreatment by the British Army and the RUC. Are you going to ask me to give them my job also?

*I have to add that significant caveat as posters with a similar view as you tend to be extremely paranoid about random posts/articles on twitter by nobodies

I asked would you be willing to. I haven't asked you to. I also never mentioned the troubles or the British army. I can't see how that confused you.

Black lives matter and their supporters tend to be in favour of positive discrimination in the workplace and education.

I am asking would you be willing and happy for you or your children to give your place in your employment and/or your children's place in college to someone in what you would consider "an oppressed group"? Purely for the purposes of equality and representation and not judged on merit alone.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

People pointed out cops killing black people and you responded with pointing out cops killing white people.



We aren't voting them into power, you can support elements of what they want to do.

I don't think you can prove that Law Enforcement isn't systemically racist and it is an issue with how they deal with poverty is a problem.

I'd rather not resist or hold up police reform because we don't agree on the 'why' it needs reform.



But it doesn't. The lack of a definition of force, cops protecting other cops, along with the likes of qualified immunity make it nearly impossible for cops to be held accountable.

All of those things BLM is trying to change.



Again, one is government run and one is the criminals.

Are you saying everyone that demanded/protested for a bloody sunday inquiry was wrong because they didn't demand the same for every terrorist death in the north? Many more people were killed by terrorists than British Army so they should have focused on their community...

You've really not addressed any the things I've said in relation to BLM. I brought the deaths of white people in relation to the police as a counter to the statement that they systematically racist. Something you've stated , without providing any support for. I posted previously a number of pieces that discuss it and lay out the facts to argue against that idea.

It's also demonstrably false to say that there is no accountability for police officers who've wrongfully killed someone, as quick google search would demonstrate.

You're again not addressing the reasons I stated for not supporting BLM, or my criticisms of them. BLM go after the money, looking to garner as much as they can, as evidenced by the salaries they pay themselves. There's no money in poor black people, but plenty to be found from guilty and ashamed whites. Their organisation is full of professional victims.

Mr. Karate

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Terry Crews came out with some very sensible comments on twitter, he hints at the black supremacist elements that the BLM movement has but was attacked by many BLM supporters posting racist things to him. I guess they will view any criticism as an attack even if it comes from a black man.

A so called equal rights group attacking a Man for wanting actual equality. Says it all about BLM.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

I asked would you be willing to. I haven't asked you to. I also never mentioned the troubles or the British army. I can't see how that confused you.

Black lives matter and their supporters tend to be in favour of positive discrimination in the workplace and education.

I am asking would you be willing and happy for you or your children to give your place in your employment and/or your children's place in college to someone in what you would consider "an oppressed group"? Purely for the purposes of equality and representation and not judged on merit alone.

What confused me is you pulling a completely random question out of your ass, one that you've failed to show me any significant push for.

So you mean a college system like we have in Ireland, where people coming from poverty get easier access? No, I don't have a problem with that system. Giving people routes out of poverty is better for society.

ExMachina1000

White lives and black lives matter. I wouldn't be a fan of the Chinese government though. Those boys would have you chopped up quick smart

Quantum Erasure

Premier League: Black Lives Matter campaign 'not endorsement of political movement'

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53242328

A series of tweets from the Black Lives Matter UK account about Palestine has prompted criticism.

The Premier League said in a statement it was "aware of the risk posed by groups that seek to hijack popular causes to promote their own political views".

"These actions are entirely unwelcome and are rejected," it added.

After the tweets were posted on Sunday, Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer told BBC Breakfast it was a "shame" the sentiment behind the Black Lives Matter movement was "getting tangled up with these organisational issues" and said it was "nonsense" for the group to call to "defund the police".

people should have done their research, or even just had a look at the BLM facebook / twitter / gofundme pages, it's not like they were hiding it. (altough I missed the Palestine tweets myself, must check them out)

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

What confused me is you pulling a completely random question out of your ass, one that you've failed to show me any significant push for.

So you mean a college system like we have in Ireland, where people coming from poverty get easier access? No, I don't have a problem with that system. Giving people routes out of poverty is better for society.

It didn't come out of "my ass". It's a legitimate question.

So you do agree with people being given merit because of the colour of their skin and agree with quotas based on diversity?

Or the way you phrase it is telling. People from poverty....

Are you advocating that there should be a certain percentage of CEOs from Sheriff street? Or is it only the black who are poor people?

You are racist?

Hannibal36

White middle class are the weakest class on earth it's just a ruse to gain an advantage,Poor Whites know it,Rich Whites knows it,Blacks know it,the only ones that don't know it are the confused Whites in the middle.

No Police in western Europe is shooting Blacks with impunity.Try seeing how Blacks adapt and live in Asia where they haven't got a class of weak middle class Whites to use to their advantage.They quietly assimilate no problem.

Here in the west they are the privileged among the lower classes if they don't get a Job its racism,if they accidently kill you,you called them a racist name so you probably had it coming and they usually do a lighter sentence for everything.

Look to Brazilian guy in Dublin gets into a fight with some Irish guys gets beat up,still perfectly alive though he goes home gets a knife comes back and kills Irish man Judge rules its ok to do that and definitely not a Murder at all because Irish man was racist and called him names.Can stab Irish kids and video it boast about it and not even see a nights Jail.They are the privileged class,among the working class,they get to the top of housing lists here,they get lesser sentences,they can do pretty much anything to anybody they like and once they pull out that they called me a racist name all bets are off.

Hannibal36

Hannibal36 wrote: »

White middle class are the weakest class on earth it's just a ruse to gain an advantage,Poor Whites know it,Rich Whites knows it,Blacks know it,the only ones that don't know it are the confused Whites in the middle.

No Police in western Europe is shooting Blacks with impunity.Try seeing how Blacks adapt and live in Asia where they haven't got a class of weak middle class Whites to use to their advantage.They quietly assimilate no problem.

Here in the west they are the privileged among the lower classes if they don't get a Job its racism,if they accidently kill you,you called them a racist name so you probably had it coming and they usually do a lighter sentence for everything.

Look to Brazilian guy in Dublin gets into a fight with some Irish guys gets beat up,still perfectly alive though he goes home gets a knife comes back and kills Irish man Judge rules its ok to do that and definitely not a Murder at all because Irish man was racist and called him names.Can stab Irish kids and video it boast about it and not even see a nights Jail.They are the privileged class,among the working class,they get to the top of housing lists here,they get lesser sentences,they can do pretty much anything to anybody they like and once they pull out that they called me a racist name all bets are off.

I certainly wouldn't phrase it the way you did but to a certain extent I understand what you are saying.

If a white straight Irish man gets set upon it is an act of violence, regardless of who is the person who attacked him.

Yet if a straight white Irish man attacks any different nationality/race/sexuality for any reason, it is a hate crime and automatically looked at as an example of white supremacist and/or phobic behaviour.

For clarity, neither is acceptable and should be denounced.

Tell me how

tonycascarino wrote: »

BLM rubbish has gone way over the top now at this stage. If anything, more normal thinking people will turn against it such is the way it is rammed down our throats on a daily basis.

Yeah, being rammed down our throats by people starting threads expressing their extreme outrage at something while simultaneously actually saying that they don't understand any of it.

You'd have thought both statements couldn't be true, yet, here we are. Again.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Yeah, being rammed down our throats by people starting threads expressing their extreme outrage at something while simultaneously actually saying that they don't understand any of it.

You'd have thought both statements couldn't be true, yet, here we are. Again.

With such an apt username, perhaps you can tell me how I can support black lives matter.

What, apart from treating every person on their merits instead of their skin colour, should I do? If I treat black people better, what should I do about Asians, or mixed race? Should I apportion it?

Or should I continue treating everyone just on their merits and not feel accountable for any racism they encounter that I never condoned in the first place?

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

With such an apt username, perhaps you can tell me how I can support black lives matter.

What, apart from treating every person on their merits instead of their skin colour, should I do? If I treat black people better, what should I do about Asians, or mixed race? Should I apportion it?

Or should I continue treating everyone just on their merits and not feel accountable for any racism they encounter that I never condoned in the first place?

You could watch the 13th on Netflix which may go some way to helping you understand how a sector of society was viewed and treated which was very much not on their merits.

You could then maybe stop misrepresenting the BLM intent on public discussion boards.

Both of those things along with treating people on their merits would certainly be a good place to start.

Glad to help.

Hannibal36

Tell me how wrote: »

You could watch the 13th on Netflix which may go some way to helping you understand how a sector of society was viewed and treated which was very much not on their merits.

You could then maybe stop misrepresenting the BLM intent on public discussion boards.

Both of those things along with treating people on their merits would certainly be a good place to start.

Glad to help.

Your class is showing.A confused one here haha.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

You could watch the 13th on Netflix which may go some way to helping you understand how a sector of society was viewed and treated which was very much not on their merits.

You could then maybe stop misrepresenting the BLM intent on public discussion boards.

Both of those things along with treating people on their merits would certainly be a good place to start.

Glad to help.

I could....

But I won't.

I have absolutely no interest in basing my opinion or attitude towards people based on a Netflix production. My attitude of treating people on their merit, not on their skin colour or their heritage is key. I wish to be treated the same.

I have never misrepresented black lives matter. I think my interpretation of them is exactly what they espouse to be. A group of people who judge me and my life experience based on the colour of my skin.

A group who believe in white privilege.

I reject that.

I reject that from any group who are prejudiced and feel entitled to assume anything about anyone based on their skin.

Because that is racism.

I hate racism.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

I could....

But I won't.

I have absolutely no interest in basing my opinion or attitude towards people based on a Netflix production. My attitude of treating people on their merit, not on their skin colour or their heritage is key. I wish to be treated the same.

I have never misrepresented black lives matter. I think my interpretation of them is exactly what they espouse to be. A group of people who judge me and my life experience based on the colour of my skin.

A group who believe in white privilege.

I reject that.

I reject that from any group who are prejudiced and feel entitled to assume anything about anyone based on their skin.

Because that is racism.

I hate racism.

Well then, until you understand the reason why the BLM movement exists, maybe it would be better for you not to judge both their purpose and motivations.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Well then, until you understand the reason why the BLM movement exists, maybe it would be better for you not to judge both their purpose and motivations.

No.

I will always oppose racism. BLM believes that white people have privilege. I reject that.

Even when it's popular to support it, like you seem to do.

I hear you, but I genuinely think my whole "treat everyone as equal regardless of what their skin colour or their ancestors did" is a little more productive than your "watch Netflix and stop badmouthing BLM" suggestion.

Yours is a little racist.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

No.

I will always oppose racism. BLM believes that white people have privilege. I reject that.

Even when it's popular to support it, like you seem to do.

I hear you, but I genuinely think my whole "treat everyone as equal regardless of what their skin colour or their ancestors did" is a little more productive than your "watch Netflix and stop badmouthing BLM" suggestion.

Yours is a little racist.

Sure.

An ignorant but well intentioned position may be better than an informed one, but, you asked, I told you.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Sure.

An ignorant but well intentioned position may be better than an informed one, but, you asked, I told you.

I'm sorry that you think NOT being racist is ignorant.

You be an admitted "informed" person who has a prejudice on people because of their skin colour.

I'll gladly be called ignorant by people like you for respecting people based on their merits.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sorry that you think NOT being racist is ignorant.

You be an admitted "informed" person who has a prejudice on people because of their skin colour.

I'll gladly be called ignorant by people like you for respecting people based on their merits.

Never said that. Take some time to read our interaction again a few times.