Hamas mass-murderer Ahlam al-Tamimi

Adam9213

biko wrote: »

Is it because there is a wall between Gaza and Egypt?


Is it because Gaza has a massive obesity problem?

Do even a slight bit of research and you'll know why it's called that.

Odhinn

biko wrote: »

Is it because there is a wall between Gaza and Egypt?


.............

Thats the American tax dollar at work. Whats your position on the colonisation of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem etc?

Adam9213

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It was literally occupied by the British army! Are you saying Palestinian children are more lethal stone throwers than Northern Irish children?

He doesn't realise Northern Ireland was at one stage the most militarized zone on the planet because of an insurgency by the IRA.

I only watched this earlier no one was killed or injured in this area on that day, this is an average day for a lot of Catholic areas in the early 70s

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kK3Ff4ivkJA

Timberrrrrrrr

Adam9213 wrote: »

He doesn't realise Northern Ireland was at one stage the most militarized zone on the planet because of an insurgency by the IRA.

I only watched this earlier no one was killed or injured in this area on that day, this is an average day for a lot of Catholic areas in the early 70s

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kK3Ff4ivkJA

Israeli propaganda staff rarely know anything other than "israel good".

political analyst

Odhinn wrote: »

They're protestors, and they've a great deal to protest about.

The IDF doing any little thing they can to make life as miserable possible for ordinary palestinians.
https://www.btselem.org/firearms/20200527_soldiers_shoot_holes_in_water_tanks_at_kafr_qadum


Of course there's a different attitude towards colonists throwing stones



https://www.btselem.org/settler_violence_updates/during-corona-crisis


...and theres many similar incidents on a regular basis. Two sets of laws, administered by an occupational government - apartheid, essentially.

Not peaceful protesters.

political analyst

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It was literally occupied by the British army! Are you saying Palestinian children are more lethal stone throwers than Northern Irish children?

Northern Ireland is part of the UK - so the British military presence there couldn't have been an occupation. By the way, the level of violence is far higher on the Gaza-Israel border than it ever was in Northern Ireland - even during the Troubles.

Odhinn

political analyst wrote: »

Not peaceful protesters.

Have you any comment on the disparity of the treatment of the settler colonists vs the treatment of the Palestinians?


https://www.btselem.org/settler_violence_updates/during-corona-crisis

political analyst

Odhinn wrote: »

Have you any comment on the disparity of the treatment of the settler colonists vs the treatment of the Palestinians?


https://www.btselem.org/settler_violence_updates/during-corona-crisis

Horrific incidents. However, they don't justify what al-Tamimi did.

Odhinn

political analyst wrote: »

Horrific incidents. However, they don't justify what al-Tamimi did.

...but they do show the moral vacuum the Israeli state operates in the occupied territories - a two tier system, much like that of Apartheid. It's no wonder people protest.

political analyst

Odhinn wrote: »

...but they do show the moral vacuum the Israeli state operates in the occupied territories - a two tier system, much like that of Apartheid. It's no wonder people protest.

Settlers who have perpetrated heinous crimes have been held to account.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-duma-verdict/israeli-settler-found-guilty-of-murder-in-arson-attack-on-palestinian-family-idUSKBN22U0L5

Timberrrrrrrr

political analyst wrote: »

Northern Ireland is part of the UK - so the British military presence there couldn't have been an occupation. By the way, the level of violence is far higher on the Gaza-Israel border than it ever was in Northern Ireland - even during the Troubles.

Because the land was occupied by the British for hundreds of years, Northern Ireland is in fact a part of the island of Ireland. You obviously haven't studied Irish history much.

Odhinn

political analyst wrote: »

Settlers who have perpetrated heinous crimes have been held to account.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-duma-verdict/israeli-settler-found-guilty-of-murder-in-arson-attack-on-palestinian-family-idUSKBN22U0L5

.........on very rare occassions

According to Yesh Din figures:• The Israel Police failed in the investigation of 82% of the files opened between 2005 and 2019. • 91% of all investigation files were closed without an indictment.• The establishment of the Nationalistic Crime Unit within the Israel Police has not produced long-term improvement in the quality and outcomes of police investigations. Only 4% of all files investigated between 2017 and 2019 resulted in indictments, while the failure rate in these investigations during this time was 77%.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.yesh-din.org/%D7%93%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A8+2019+%D7%93%D7%A3+%D7%A0%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D+%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A7/%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%AA/Law+Enforcement+Data+Sheet+12.2019+ENG.pdf

The odds that a Palestinian would see his or her complaint lead to the prosecution of the soldier who harmed them - 0.7%.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.yesh-din.org/Accountability_Data+Sheet_Fall+2019/Law+Enforcement+Soldiers_DS_English_FINAL.pdf

Zebra3

political analyst wrote: »

Not peaceful protesters.

They are trying to get back to their homes and land stolen from them by zionist terrorists.

Why do you support terrorists who ethnically cleansed civilians?

Very naziesque.

Adam9213

political analyst wrote: »

Northern Ireland is part of the UK - so the British military presence there couldn't have been an occupation. By the way, the level of violence is far higher on the Gaza-Israel border than it ever was in Northern Ireland - even during the Troubles.

As part of the GFA 1998 The illegal territorial claim to Northern Ireland in Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution has been removed and the South now accepts the legitimacy of Northern Ireland.

Which means before that there was a territorial claim to Northern Ireland by the Republic which would make it disputed between ROI and the United Kingdom.

Gatling

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yes, history is fascinating.


Straight in with ethnic cleansing in 48 and straight in with war crimes in 56.

Worse was done in eastern Europe ,

What war crimes are you claiming now

Timberrrrrrrr

Gatling wrote: »

Worse was done in eastern Europe ,

What war crimes are you claiming now

Heres a list

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Israeli_war_crimes

Also this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-war-crime-palestine-icc-hague-netaynahu-idf-investigation-a9255246.html?amp

Skylinehead

Gatling wrote: »

Worse was done in eastern Europe ,

Relevance?

Zebra3

Gatling wrote: »

Worse was done in eastern Europe ,

What war crimes are you claiming now

Israel, along with Britain and France, attacking Egypt in 1956 was a war crime.

Though you probably don't have a problem with Israel committing crimes like that.

Eastern Europe has nothing to do with the anti-semitic ethnic cleansing inflicted upon the christians and muslims of Palestine.

Irish Praetorian

Zebra3 wrote: »

Israel, along with Britain and France, attacking Egypt in 1956 was a war crime.

Though you probably don't have a problem with Israel committing crimes like that.

Eastern Europe has nothing to do with the anti-semitic ethnic cleansing inflicted upon the christians and muslims of Palestine.

To be fair, isn't this the same old story that always gets told to the Israelis? That they should hold themselves to a standard so high that it is perhaps alien to the neighbouring regimes? First they are anathema for settling in Palestine and carving out a state, but when regimes across the region expel their Jewish populations outright and little them with little recourse but to flee there, the best we can must up is what - 'oh that's bad too'?

It's the one part of this debate I simply struggle to offer an explanation for - half a million Syrian dead and we shrug our soldiers, one million Rohingya extirpated from Myanmar and 'thats bad too' whereas perhaps 50 lives lost in 2020 as a course of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and we can summon boundless outrage and anger. It's not that I don't think people can't have a genuine passion about the conflict, I simply struggle to see why it is perhaps the only conflict to inspire such feelings.

Now this might lead you to reasonably ask, well if others are so passionate about Palestine why are you so intent about Israel, to which I can only offer that frankly, I doubt the alternatives offered. I try to look at some of the alternative visions, the BDS plan, the Arab League peace plan, and they all appear to have a lot more misery and naivete built into them. So that leads me to a fairly tepid endorsement of a pretty awful status quo, safe in the knowledge that the only likely changes are bad ones.

Gatling

Zebra3 wrote: »

Israel, along with Britain and France, attacking Egypt in 1956 was a war crime.

Though you probably don't have a problem with Israel committing crimes like that.

Eastern Europe has nothing to do with the anti-semitic ethnic cleansing inflicted upon the christians and muslims of Palestine.

Massacres, land grabs , invasions ,foreign occupation all relevant ,as I said multiple times people will rant and rave about the likes is isreal did this and that and gloriously ignore all others involved ,

Actually answer is it just the leaders who should face war crimes for illegal invasions and occupations or should those who are in the occupation force face the same war crimes

Zebra3

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

To be fair, isn't this the same old story that always gets told to the Israelis?

No, it's not. It's Israel that hold itself up above all others.

A state built on other people's land. Built on ethnic cleansing.

And yet the OP comes on here starting a thread about a group that Israel helped to form. :rolleyes:

Gatling wrote: »

Massacres, land grabs , invasions ,foreign occupation all relevant ,as I said multiple times people will rant and rave about the likes is isreal did this and that and gloriously ignore all others involved ,

Actually answer is it just the leaders who should face war crimes for illegal invasions and occupations or should those who are in the occupation force face the same war crimes

How about balance?

How about when someone comes on whinging about Hamas, we deal we the facts that the "Palestinian problem" happened because of terrorism inflicted on them by Euroepan jewish colonialists?

How about when some some racist apologist for Israel's crimes come on, they actually acknowledge what zionists started?

What do people think the Palestinians should have done?

Just walked away and said "here, take our land, maybe rape some more of our women while you're at it"?

Irish Praetorian

Zebra3 wrote: »

No, it's not. It's Israel that hold itself up above all others.

A state built on other people's land. Built on ethnic cleansing.

And yet the OP comes on here starting a thread about a group that Israel helped to form. :rolleyes:

Er, holds itself up above all others? In what sense exactly? Don't get me wrong, I see plenty of nationalism but most countries would have that to some extent.

Also, probably not that many states presently extant which are not built on ethnic cleansing (if not outside genocide) to one degree or another. Heck we don't need to look beyond our own island to see an example of that - but that does not mean we get to 'undo' the wrongs of the past with fresh wrongs.

end of the road

political analyst wrote: »

Just because you say they were civilians it doesn't mean they were civilians. They moved towards the Gaza border first and so they're the aggressors. The circumstances of each case make every difference.

You and Goebbels would have gotten along splendidly.

they were no aggressers as they were not armed in any way that could be any danger to those policing the border on the opposite side.
they were simply people moving to a border, something one is entitled to do.
not sure how i and a nazi would have gotten along given our political beliefs are very, very different, the nazis willing to and actually killing people for their political beliefs.

political analyst wrote: »

Not peaceful protesters.

ultimately irrelevant, they were still protesters.
violent protesters are dealt with quite easily in grown up countries, it doesn't involve murdering them.

political analyst wrote: »

Northern Ireland is part of the UK - so the British military presence there couldn't have been an occupation. By the way, the level of violence is far higher on the Gaza-Israel border than it ever was in Northern Ireland - even during the Troubles.

part of the uk in name only, and the british military were there to uphold the sectarian government, for which was not operating in the name of much of the population, but which was ultimately a foreign government.

Odhinn

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

To be fair, isn't this the same old story that always gets told to the Israelis? That they should hold themselves to a standard so high that it is perhaps alien to the neighbouring regimes? First they are anathema for settling in Palestine and carving out a state, but when regimes across the region expel their Jewish populations outright and little them with little recourse but to flee there, the best we can must up is what - 'oh that's bad too'?

It's the one part of this debate I simply struggle to offer an explanation for - half a million Syrian dead and we shrug our soldiers, one million Rohingya extirpated from Myanmar and 'thats bad too' whereas perhaps 50 lives lost in 2020 as a course of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and we can summon boundless outrage and anger. It's not that I don't think people can't have a genuine passion about the conflict, I simply struggle to see why it is perhaps the only conflict to inspire such feelings.

Now this might lead you to reasonably ask, well if others are so passionate about Palestine why are you so intent about Israel, to which I can only offer that frankly, I doubt the alternatives offered. I try to look at some of the alternative visions, the BDS plan, the Arab League peace plan, and they all appear to have a lot more misery and naivete built into them. So that leads me to a fairly tepid endorsement of a pretty awful status quo, safe in the knowledge that the only likely changes are bad ones.

The treatment of the regimes is one point of contention. The Burmese were under sanctions for years, Syria likewise and quite rightly so. Yet when it comes down to Israel they're sanction free and - due to US pressure - allowed a cloak of respectability. It's galling, to put it mildly.

Irish Praetorian

Odhinn wrote: »

The treatment of the regimes is one point of contention. The Burmese were under sanctions for years, Syria likewise and quite rightly so. Yet when it comes down to Israel they're sanction free and - due to US pressure - allowed a cloak of respectability. It's galling, to put it mildly.

Alright lets go down this route - for one neither Syria nor Myanmar are under UN Sanctions. The EU has imposed sanctions, having repealed a lot of them in the early 2010s (together with much of the Western world), and presently has imposed a number of sanctions which would be similar to what has been imposed on Syria. More specifically, this would be restriction on weapons sales, dual use goods sales, military training and asset freezes. Now, you will observe as I will too, that these sanctions have next to no impact on the two military regimes listed above, what do you imagine they would have on a democratic society with the patronage of one of the worlds superpowers? How do you place an arms embargo on a leading arms producer? How do you raise economic sanctions on an economy pretty intertwined with your own (I'm thinking a lot in terms of patent law and technology here). And most importantly, how do these sanctions translate to a change on the ground you would like to see, as compared with the other cases you have listed?

Zebra3

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Er, holds itself up above all others? In what sense exactly? Don't get me wrong, I see plenty of nationalism but most countries would have that to some extent.

Also, probably not that many states presently extant which are not built on ethnic cleansing (if not outside genocide) to one degree or another. Heck we don't need to look beyond our own island to see an example of that - but that does not mean we get to 'undo' the wrongs of the past with fresh wrongs.

Israel holds itself up as "the only democracy in the Middle East". One of Israel's endless propaganda shyte, and a mantra repeated by their racist fans.

And Israel is continuing its' ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to this day.

Are you unaware of this or denying it?

Irish Praetorian

Zebra3 wrote: »

Israel holds itself up as "the only democracy in the Middle East". One of Israel's endless propaganda shyte, and a mantra repeated by their racist fans.

And Israel is continuing its' ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to this day.

Are you unaware of this or denying it?

'Only' seems like a bit of a stretch but it does seem to be far more democratic than it's neighbours. I believe the 2019 Democracy Index describes it as a 'flawed democracy' akin to Tunisia, but those two are by and far away the best rated in the region.

As to your charge of ethnic cleansing, frankly I'm less averse to such a charge than others, but ultimately I don't think it is the most accurate description. I don't think it's a major concession to suggest that Israeli policy in Palestine is something rather unique in modern history - it lacks the sheer destructiveness which would characterise actual ethnic cleansing, but still seems to have an objective of population displacement at play. I've heard some offer the 'Bantustan' comparison, which feels somewhat closer though I cannot quite place it, but perhaps I'm still given over mostly to the idea that this is simply a conflict that has worn on so long it has exhausted both sides reserves of mercy and is now conducted with a casual brutality that seems almost mundane.

Zebra3

Even some parts of the Israeli media, in this case the so-called left which is in reality a pale shade of Israel's fascism, knows it is ethnic cleansing.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-israel-s-ethnic-cleansing-continues-1.7771874

And it's not a conflict, it's an occupation.

Odhinn

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Alright lets go down this route - for one neither Syria nor Myanmar are under UN Sanctions.(........)ave listed?

Sanctions would be at least a start. Unfortunately the US veto on the UNSC prevents it being a matter of international law, but that shouldn't stop support for BDS. It took many years for BDS to take effect against Apartheid South Africa and we should expect no better here.

boetstark

Odhinn wrote: »

Really?
https://mondoweiss.net/2020/06/after-several-long-minutes-of-pleading-israeli-forces-shot-eyad-al-halaq-anyway/?fbclid=IwAR3Rk3B74ESwdxL1yciZpTSftx_xkuPodsu3ayyODldBfcm1ZYGgIIPI8ns


You're positive now?

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/the-military-first-took-his-legs-then-his-life-1.5628827


As Israeli troops are illegally occupying the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem and Golan, why aren't they described as "terrorists"? Certainly their activities fit then bill, and thats without getting into the crimes of the settler/colonists they stand by without intervening.

Go read the reasons behind the occupation of the west bank and other territory. Something to do with a buffer between Israel and a previous unprovoked attack. Stupid people.