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Abortion in Ireland: 2 years on

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    #422
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Interesting to see that the numbers remain generally consistent with what they always were, only now women can have safe, legal terminations here, rather than having them outsourced to another country, and all the difficulties and trauma that involves.

    The way the anti-choice campaign went on before the referendum, you’d swear a child would never be born in the country again if it passed. Now they’re trying to spin it that this wasn’t what people voted for in overwhelming numbers, even though the legislation was published well in advance and debated and discussed for ages.

    Proudly voted Yes. Would vote yes again and again.


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    #423
    keybordWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭keybordWarrior


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Explain to me logically how having a baby you’re not adequately able to care for is more responsible than having a termination.

    Explain to me why the unborn baby should pay the price for that.


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    #424
    cannotlogin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭cannotlogin


    I'm surprised at some of the naivety.

    How can anyone possibly believe that more women living in Ireland are now having more abortions since it became available in this country?

    Abortions have been taking place since the dawn of time and took place either abroad, back street abortions, online pills or by other barbaric methods.

    Thankfully now we have a situation where those that want to have an abortion can do so in the safest way possible for both the woman and the foetus. Where people are treated with care & compassion and supported medically.

    I struggle to understand how people can be so judgmental, the majority having never been in the position. Nobody is thrilled to have an abortion, nobody plans to every have that experience but there are a miriad of reasons why people opt for one and all research indicates that the overwhelming majority of people who do, confirm that the decision was the right one for them.

    Abortion isn't compulsory. If you don't want one, don't have one but abortions always took place, always will and to think anything otherwise is naive.

    I also think the NO campaign secured far more Yes votes than they realise. I posted this before but Ronan Mullens treatment of a young lady on Prime Time was a turning point for a lot of people who were undecided.


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    #425
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users Posts: 86,778 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    I don't know the previous numbers but that is high, there is many forms of contraceptions
    https://forumofgames.com/




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    #426
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,559 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    cannotlogin wrote: »
    I'm surprised at some of the naivety.
    ...
    Abortion isn't compulsory. If you don't want one, don't have one ...

    hmmm


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    #427
    Simi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭Simi


    keybordWarrior wrote: »
    Yes, that's one way of dressing it up to make yourself feel better about it.

    Legality has nothing to do with it. It was illegal a few years ago, was it wrong then? It must be convenient for you to just believe what's legal is acceptable.

    Right and wrong are matters of opinion. In your mind it's wrong. In my mind it's not. That's why we have laws.

    Many didn't support the previous law but were still bound by it. Just like you and others don't support the current law but are still bound by it.

    I personally don't feel it's a matter for law at all and it should be governed by medical guidelines according to best practice, but that is still a minority opinion for now.


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    #428
    cannotlogin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭cannotlogin


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    hmmm

    Perhaps you could elaborate as 'hmmm' contributes nothing to the conversation?


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    #429
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    keybordWarrior wrote: »
    Yes, that's one way of dressing it up to make yourself feel better about it.

    Legality has nothing to do with it. It was illegal a few years ago, was it wrong then? It must be convenient for you to just believe what's legal is acceptable.

    It was never wrong. Abortion has always been in Ireland. There has always and will always be a percentage of women who cannot continue with a pregnancy and will require a termination.

    These women need to be looked after and supported instead of being shunned to foreign healthcare systems. We are finally now doing that instead of pretending it wasn’t happening.

    Now it can be monitored and regulated and is safer for our women. Women like your wife, sister, daughter, mother, aunt, niece, cousin or friend. Women you know and love.
    They deserve to be looked after with respect, dignity and compassion in their own country.
    They are more valuable and important than the contents of their wombs.


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    #430
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,559 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    cannotlogin wrote: »
    Perhaps you could elaborate as 'hmmm' contributes nothing to the conversation?

    It is very naive to say "If you don't want one, don't have one", it misses the whole point of the argument


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    #431
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Exactly. I guarantee, the majority of people in Ireland know someone who knows someone who has had one. Over the years thousands of women have had abortions, these are people we know.
    It just isn’t discussed because those women were shamed by society for so long.

    So when they throw around words like slaughter and murder and baby killing, they aren’t endearing anyone to their cause. They are offending someone’s mother, or wife, or sister, or daughter.
    And that’s exactly what lost them support and respect during their campaign.

    If they left out the emotionally charged manipulative language, more people would have been open to hearing what they had to say.

    The truth hurts.
    That's why people closed their eyes and ears to what is actually involved in an abortion.

    I don't believe in censorship.


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    #432
    cannotlogin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭cannotlogin


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    It is very naive to say "If you don't want one, don't have one", it misses the whole point of the argument

    They aren't compulsory and it is a choice for the vast majority. Do you think that there are a significant number of women having abortions under duress or without their consent?


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    #433
    ldy4mxonucwsq6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭ldy4mxonucwsq6


    keybordWarrior wrote: »
    Yes, that's one way of dressing it up to make yourself feel better about it.

    I do feel better knowing that women here now have the option to have safe and legal abortions if they choose to. In the comfort of their own country with medical help and after care support if needed.

    The law was archaic, thankfully our government finally had the balls to put a very divisive matter to the people to decide, and the people spoke.

    People don't choose abortion lightly and I don't think that women who do make that choice should be branded as murderers as several posters have. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but what someone else does in this case is their own choice and really none of anyone else's business.

    Legal termination of a pregnancy, that's how it's described in law.


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    #434
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Murder is unlawful killing of a person. Abortion is the lawful termination of a pregnancy. Just so ya know.

    If that helps you sleep...

    6552 foetuses in a year...dear lord...

    You'd think people had to still get the condom train to the north...
    Exercise some contraceptive responsibility people...


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    #435
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,559 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    cannotlogin wrote: »
    They aren't compulsory and it is a choice for the vast majority. Do you think that there are a significant number of women having abortions under duress or without their consent?

    yep, point totally missed. it'd be like doing away with drink driving laws, and then saying 'drinking isn't compulsory, you don't have to drink drive if you don't want to...'


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    #436
    keybordWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭keybordWarrior


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    It was never wrong. Abortion has always been in Ireland. There has always and will always be a percentage of women who cannot continue with a pregnancy and will require a termination.

    These women need to be looked after and supported instead of being shunned to foreign healthcare systems. We are finally now doing that instead of pretending it wasn’t happening.

    Now it can be monitored and regulated and is safer for our women. Women like your wife, sister, daughter, mother, aunt, niece, cousin or friend. Women you know and love.
    They deserve to be looked after with respect, dignity and compassion in their own country.
    They are more valuable and important than the contents of their wombs.

    At one time those women were the “contents of a womb”. Thankfully that mattered back then.


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    #437
    cannotlogin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭cannotlogin


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    yep, point totally missed. it'd be like doing away with drink driving laws, and then saying 'drinking isn't compulsory, you don't have to drink drive if you don't want to...'

    How does it affect you personally if I or any other woman choses to have an abortion?


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    #438
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Rodin wrote: »
    The truth hurts.
    That's why people closed their eyes and ears to what is actually involved in an abortion.

    I don't believe in censorship.

    You’re hurting no one but yourself. The manipulative hyperbolic language didn’t work last time around and it won’t work this time either.

    People will not be shamed into feeling guilt for their position. The vast majority of people, myself included, are fully aware of what an abortion entails.
    The Yes vote still won by a considerable margin because we deemed women to be more important than a pre 12 week gestated fetus. That’s the truth of it.


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    #439
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    cannotlogin wrote: »
    How do it affect you personally if I or any other woman choses to have an abortion?

    I certainly don't want my taxes contributing to the killing of unborn children... how selfish of me


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    #440
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    You’re hurting no one but yourself. The manipulative hyperbolic language didn’t work last time around and it won’t work this time either.

    People will not be shamed into feeling guilt for their position. The vast majority of people, myself included, are fully aware of what an abortion entails.
    The Yes vote still won by a considerable margin because we deemed women to be more important than a pre 12 week gestated fetus. That’s the truth of it.

    Fully aware but just don't care...
    Personal responsibility disappeared in this country a long time ago....

    Euthanasia should have been legislated for well before abortion.
    That one is not allowed assistance to end one's own life is scandalous


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    #441
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    keybordWarrior wrote: »
    At one time those women were the “contents of a womb”. Thankfully that mattered back then.

    Nope, abortions still happened back then too. They just had to get a boat to England, or go down a dark alley to a back street illegal clinic, or stick a hanger up themselves.
    Women have always found ways to end their pregnancies, whether it was illegal or not.

    The irony of you saying that they mattered when they were in the womb, but are no longer as important now that they’re living breathing citizens isn’t lost on me.

    As a wise woman on Boards once said, you are staring so hard at the uterus you can’t see the woman attached to it.


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    #442
    cannotlogin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭cannotlogin


    Rodin wrote: »
    I certainly don't want my taxes contributing to the killing of unborn children... how selfish of me

    I think that's a pretty weak argument. There are plenty of things our taxes pay for that don't benefit as individuals but that will always be the way in any functioning economy. The cost is miniscule in an overall context.


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    #443
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Men have uteri these days too. Their opinion matters.


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    #444
    keybordWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭keybordWarrior


    Brenda Slow Ink wrote: »
    I do feel better knowing that women here now have the option to have safe and legal abortions if they choose to. In the comfort of their own country with medical help and after care support if needed.

    The law was archaic, thankfully our government finally had the balls to put a very divisive matter to the people to decide, and the people spoke.

    People don't choose abortion lightly and I don't think that women who do make that choice should be branded as murderers as several posters have. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but what someone else does in this case is their own choice and really none of anyone else's business.

    Legal termination of a pregnancy, that's how it's described in law.

    Many people choose abortion lightly, to deny it is disingenuous.

    How it is described in legal terms doesn’t matter. Except to those that use it to make themselves feel better.


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    #445
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    cannotlogin wrote: »
    I think that's a pretty weak argument. There are plenty of things our taxes pay for that don't benefit as individuals but that will always be the way in any functioning economy. The cost is miniscule in an overall context.

    I was asked how ot affects me personally.
    There are many other better ways tax should be spent in the health service than extinguishing viable human life.


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    #446
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Rodin wrote: »
    Fully aware but just don't care...
    Personal responsibility disappeared in this country a long time ago....

    Euthanasia should have been legislated for well before abortion.
    That one is not allowed assistance to end one's own life is scandalous

    No, they just believe the rights of the woman trump that of an embryo.
    Sometimes, having an abortion IS taking personal responsibility, even if you can’t see that. Just cause it’s a choice you wouldn’t make, doesn’t mean it’s the wrong choice for someone else.

    Completely agree about euthanasia being legalised and legislated for but I don’t agree that it’s any more or less important than abortion. They are both important in their own right.
    30 years of grassroots lobbying and campaigning is what got us the Repeal the 8th Referendum. Hopefully we won’t have to wait so long for euthanasia.


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    #447
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    keybordWarrior wrote: »
    Many people choose abortion lightly, to deny it is disingenuous.

    How it is described in legal terms doesn’t matter. Except to those that use it to make themselves feel better.

    In the UK half of all abortions are by women who have already had at least one.
    Many women take it VERY lightly. It is untrue to say otherwise.


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    #448
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,311 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Rodin wrote: »
    Men have uteri these days too. Their opinion matters.

    Boards.ie is a treasure trove of knowledge.

    Any other bad faith contributions to disguise your contempt towards women choosing to do what they want with their bodies?


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    #449
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Boards.ie is a treasure trove of knowledge.

    Any other bad faith contributions to disguise your contempt towards women choosing to do what they want with their bodies?

    The women don't do what they want to their bodies.
    They ask the state to do it for them.

    No doubt that cost us millions. Millions that could be better spent IMO.

    The state is losing the run of itself anyway.
    Women terminating human life.
    Men becoming women.
    Women becoming men.
    Two women wanting to both be the legal mother of a child...

    When is sanity going to kick in...
    One can't just throw every rule book out the window and not expect consequences


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    #450
    keybordWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭keybordWarrior


    SusieBlue wrote: »

    The irony of you saying that they mattered when they were in the womb, but are no longer as important now that they’re living breathing citizens isn’t lost on me.

    The fact that I never said or implied that seemly is lost on you. A straw man argument.


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    #451
    cannotlogin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭cannotlogin


    Rodin wrote: »
    I was asked how ot affects me personally.
    There are many other better ways tax should be spent in the health service than extinguishing viable human life.

    Yes, far better spend the taxes on those with a human life that choose to disrespect it - treating smokers, obesity, alcoholics, drug addictions etc. You can be sure they are all costing far more in taxes. Should we not treat them either as we may not agree with their choices?


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