Abortion in Ireland: 2 years on

Ankleclock

Ankleclock wrote: »

The mother's life is more important than the life of the unborn, however, the mother's right to abort is not always more important than the life of the unborn.

Ok, I'm done with this thread.

This was my point exactly but apparently I was putting foot firmly in mouth and allowing myself to get dragged into gutter arguments.

SusieBlue

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

The court had already ruled on the 8th in 1992. It had ruled that women can seek an abortion on health grounds. Again, the 8th was not mentioned by the doctor because he was absent from her care.

Again, not abortion on demand.

The second case is indeed gruesome and very sad. The loss of life is never a joyous event in my opinion. You are aware of course that this followed the 2013 act. The 1992 case and the court on this occasion ruled that the 8th did not apply in this situation.

Again, not denied an abortion as a result of the 8th

Why do you keep bringing up the doctor?
She asked for an abortion, she was denied one and told this is a catholic country.
She was then basically left to rot while the infection spread and she subsequently died.
It doesn’t matter who said no, the people who were supposed to be looking after her failed to do their job because of confusion over the law.

Look up the inquest reports and you will see for yourself that those directly responsible for Savita’s care were unsure as to when they could legally intervene because of the 8th amendment.
The 8th amendment cost her her life and the fact that you keep denying that is horrible.

The second woman was indeed kept on life support precisely because of the 8th. It specifically says it in all the court reports and media stories.

The delay arose from doctors concerns that taking her off life support could breach the constitutional right to life of the unborn in the 8th amendment

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-admits-partial-liability-over-brain-dead-pregnant-woman-kept-on-life-support-1.4010364?mode=amp

I’m glad this is so black and white to you but it caused confusion in emergencies and tragic situations. It wasn’t a clear cut law and that’s how cases like the above came to happen in the first place.

SusieBlue

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You are incorrect. The comment was made by a nurse, not the doctor in charge of her care.

There's numerous failings, read the actual report fully.

And again, the 1992 decision had already clarified the legal point. You keep ignoring that.

It doesn't matter who said it. She asked for an abortion and she was told no. She was then left to sit there for over a week while a massive infection developed. She asked again, and was told no.
They only intervened roughly 5 hours after her medical notes were updated to say that her life was now at risk.
Her pulse was double what it should have been and they were still more concerned with checking the baby's heartbeat than they were saving her life.
She ended up dying because of the failure to act, and they failed to act because of the 8th amendment.

Prof Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran, who chaired the HSE inquiry into Ms Halappanavar’s death in 2012, said it was “very clear” to him Dr Katherine Asbury, the consultant treating her, had been “concerned about the legal issues” throughout her considerations as to whether to terminate the pregnancy.

The professor emeritus in obstetrics and gynaecology at St George’s University, London told the Oireachtas committee on the Eighth Amendment that: “Things were made more difficult because of the legislation.”

He said Ms Halappanavar’s condition had not been diagnosed and had escalated.

The second point was that as her condition had escalated, even to the point when her pulse rate was double the normal rate, her team was still looking for the baby’s heartbeat.

“One of the things which was holding their hands back while they were looking after her was this Eighth Amendment issue because the baby’s heartbeat was there.”

Quantum Erasure

sydthebeat wrote: »

Theres no unborn baby.

Therein lies the fallacy of your argument

Why the need for abortion at all then?

pjohnson

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Why the need for abortion at all then?

Foetus removal.


Have you guys still not learned any science since the vote?

Hotblack Desiato

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

She was entitled to an abortion.

No, she wasn't, under the 8th amendment because the foetus' right to life was equal to hers.
Only if her life was in imminent danger could she have an abortion.
By the time this was realised, it was too late.

The abortion would have been legal.

It would have been illegal at the time she asked for it and the doctors performing it would have been liable to be jailed.

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

The court had already ruled on the 8th in 1992. It had ruled that women can seek an abortion on health grounds.

That is just wrong. Abortions could never be performed on the grounds of risk to health under the 8th, it had to be a risk to the woman's life and the risk had to be immediate.

amdublin

cournioni wrote: »

Same can be said for both sides. The part that I found most disgusting was the gleeful cheers and carnival atmosphere among the crowd in Dublin Castle following the referendum result. Taking a life away through choice shouldn’t be a cause to cheer.

Refresh my memory someone.

Did this really happen? Or are you mixing this up with the marriage equality celebrations two years previously?

My memory is just a big massive shared sigh of relief from the pro choicers. And shock that it was won by such a landslide.

Rodin

amdublin wrote: »

Refresh my memory someone.

Did this really happen? Or are you mixing this up with the marriage equality celebrations two years previously?

My memory is just a big massive shared sigh of relief from the pro choicers. And shock that it was won by such a landslide.

The abortion celebrations were much more raucous.
Reminded me of Italia 90

https://youtu.be/cndSClY49gY

Igotadose

cournioni wrote: »

Same can be said for both sides. The part that I found most disgusting was the gleeful cheers and carnival atmosphere among the crowd in Dublin Castle following the referendum result. Taking a life away through choice shouldn’t be a cause to cheer.

Funny, there were no abortions in Ireland that day. Sure you got your reasons for the celebrating correct? I think it's more you lost your ability to control others that's got your knickers in a knot.

Improving Human Rights should always be a cause to cheer.

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/CCPR/CCPR_C_GC_36.pdf

NB: that's a quoting of the UN covenant on Human Rights. I know you don't read, but here's the relevant bit:

"Although States parties may adopt measures designed to regulate voluntary
terminations of pregnancy, such measures must not result in violation of the right to life of
a pregnant woman or girl, or her other rights under the Covenant. Thus, restrictions on the
ability of women or girls to seek abortion must not, inter alia, jeopardize their lives, subject
them to physical or mental pain or suffering which violates article 7, discriminate against
them or arbitrarily interfere with their privacy."

ohnonotgmail

Rodin wrote: »

The abortion celebrations were much more raucous.
Reminded me of Italia 90

https://youtu.be/cndSClY49gY

you have very muted definition of raucous.

Bonniedog

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You are incorrect. The comment was made by a nurse, not the doctor in charge of her care.

There's numerous failings, read the actual report fully.

And again, the 1992 decision had already clarified the legal point. You keep ignoring that.

Those who used that poor woman's death to persuade people to vote for abortion just ignore the fact that the 8th amendment had nothing to do with it.

They have not read the report which blames "medical misadventure" and none of its recommendations referred to abortion.

Bonniedog

amdublin wrote: »

Refresh my memory someone.

Did this really happen? Or are you mixing this up with the marriage equality celebrations two years previously?

.

It was more or less same crowd with political party passes and led by the stomach churning glee club of beaming McDonald and O'Neill holding a placard that declared "the north is next."

Perhaps they had had too much free gargle and got it mixed up with the abandoned SF objective of Irish unity?

ohnonotgmail

Bonniedog wrote: »

Those who used that poor woman's death to persuade people to vote for abortion just ignore the fact that the 8th amendment had nothing to do with it.

They have not read the report which blames "medical misadventure" and none of its recommendations referred to abortion.

SusieBlue must have made up the quotes in post #664

ohnonotgmail

Bonniedog wrote: »

It was more or less same crowd with political party passes and led by the stomach churning glee club of beaming McDonald and O'Neill holding a placard that declared "the north is next."

Perhaps they had had too much free gargle and got it mixed up with the abandoned SF objective of Irish unity?

I can almost feel the hatred coming from you

uptherebels

Rodin wrote: »

The abortion celebrations were much more raucous.
Reminded me of Italia 90

https://youtu.be/cndSClY49gY

You need to understand the difference between celebrating the removal of the calamity that was the 8th amendment and celebrating abortions.

Bonniedog

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

SusieBlue must have made up the quotes in post #664

They are reports of comments made at a press conference!

Not from the report. Maybe read that rather than the Irish Times

ohnonotgmail

Bonniedog wrote: »

They are reports of comments made at a press conference!

Not from the report. Maybe read that rather than the Irish Times

comments from experts who were involved in the enquiry

Bonniedog

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I can almost feel the hatred coming from you

:rolleyes:


Have you sought help?

Bonniedog

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

comments from experts who were involved in the enquiry

Arulkurman was speaking at a pro abortion press conference. Others involved in inquiry and Oireachtas Committee also took sides in the campaign.

His view was not that of the majority report.

ohnonotgmail

Bonniedog wrote: »

:rolleyes:


Have you sought help?

its not me that needs it.

Hammer Archer

Bonniedog wrote: »

Arulkurman was speaking at a pro abortion press conference. Others involved in inquiry and Oireachtas Committee also took sides in the campaign.

His view was not that of the majority report.

No he wasn't speaking at a pro abortion press conference:
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/author-of-savita-halappanavar-report-says-8th-amendment-contributed-to-her-death-810432.html

And here's a paragraph from the report:

There are no accepted clear local, national or international guidelines on the management of inevitable early second trimester miscarriage (i.e. less than 24 weeks) including the management of miscarriage where there is prolonged rupture of the membranes.
The reason for the absence of such guidelines may be that clinical practice in other jurisdictions would have led to an early termination of pregnancy in equivalent clinical circumstances. It is recommended that such guidelines be developed for such patients as a matter of urgency and they should be explicit in the guidance given as to when one should offer termination based on symptoms and signs of infection implying increasing health risk to the mother which may even threaten her life.
We recognise that such guidelines must be consistent with applicable law and that the guidance so urged may require legal change.

Pretty clear in my view.

KiKi III

I was at Dublin Castle that day. People were immensely relieved and happy that months and years of hard work had paid off. It wasn’t a carnival atmosphere. Every now and then small groups would start singing and others would shush them because it didn’t feel appropriate.

Millionaire only not

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I can almost feel the hatred coming from you

Hatred or telling the truth , there a disgrace after this weeks carry on . I hope people won’t forget it .
Dr.Hoolihan has to go home to his dieing wife while he was trying to safe people of Ireland , and these langers give him and people of Ireland 2 fingers over burying a low life .

ohnonotgmail

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Hatred or telling the truth , there a disgrace after this weeks carry on . I hope people won’t forget it .
Dr.Hoolihan has to go home to his dieing wife while he was trying to safe people of Ireland , and these langers give him and people of Ireland 2 fingers over burying a low life .

what?

Loafing Oaf

Bonniedog wrote: »

Those who used that poor woman's death to persuade people to vote for abortion just ignore the fact that the 8th amendment had nothing to do with it.

They have not read the report which blames "medical misadventure" and none of its recommendations referred to abortion.

Which report are you talking about?

The HSE review group report includes this recommendation:

Recommendation 4b.
There is an immediate and urgent requirement for a clear statement of the legal context in
which clinical professional judgement can be exercised in the best medical welfare interests
of patients. There is a parallel immediate requirement for clear and precise national clinical
guidelines to meaningfully assist the clinical professionals who have the responsibility, often
in circumstance of rapid deterioration or emergency, as to how to exercise their clinical
professional judgement in a particular case. We recommend that the clinical professional
community, health and social care regulators, and the Oireachtas consider the law including
any necessary constitutional change and related administrative, legal and clinical guidelines
in relation to the management of inevitable miscarriage in the early second trimester of a
pregnancy including with prolonged rupture of membranes and where the risk to the mother
increases with time from the time that membranes were ruptured including the risk of
infection. These guidelines should include good practice guidelines in relation to expediting
delivery for clinical reasons including medical and surgical termination based on available
expertise and feasibility consistent with the law.
We recognise that such guidelines must be consistent with applicable law and that the
guidance so urged may require legal change.

Bonniedog

That is not from the report into her death.

Hammer, the link I was referring to is from him speaking at an IFPA press conference, that was mentioned from post 664.

Hammer Archer

Bonniedog wrote: »

That is not from the report into her death.

Yes it is:
Page 58 - 59.

Bonniedog wrote: »

Hammer, the link I was referring to is from him speaking at an IFPA press conference, that was mentioned from post 664.

And he also said the exact same thing at the Oireachtas committee. He was the head of the inquiry into her death.
As I said at the time, arguing that the 8th amendment wasn't the cause of Savita's death is like arguing that HIV/AIDS has never killed anyone, it's the infections.

MontgomeryClift

SusieBlue wrote: »

But that’s exactly it, the unborn baby IS an unwelcome client in the woman’s body in this scenario.

If you are going to argue that fetuses are people in their own right (which I don’t necessarily agree with but I’ll play along), then why don’t we treat them as we do born, living, breathing children?

Yes, let's do that.

Bannasidhe

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Yes, let's do that.

So that would be child benefit from the date of conception then?
PPNS numbers.
Some form of official State certification for the embryo.

What happens in the case of the 1 in 4 miscarriages? Will letters be sent out looking for the money to be paid back?
Will there be inquests? Post-mortems?
Death certificates?

MontgomeryClift

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So that would be child benefit from the date of conception then?
PPNS numbers.
Some form of official State certification for the embryo.

What happens in the case of the 1 in 4 miscarriages? Will letters be sent out looking for the money to be paid back?
Will there be inquests? Post-mortems?
Death certificates?

While you're trying to make respect for the life of the unborn seem ridiculous, you've scored an own-goal, because none of what you've listed would be unworkable, even though it's clearly impractical.

Keep owning yourself.