Abortion in Ireland: 2 years on

KiKi III

oyvey wrote: »

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not suggesting these things as reasons to abort are you?

I think a woman should be allowed have an abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason.

KiKi III

cournioni wrote: »

All the more reason to abstain from even associating with those men. Not all men are dopes like the ones you’ve depicted above.

I don’t need to create an ideal world, all it takes is a little thinking before doing and taking responsibility for my own actions. Everything else is beyond my control.

I sincerely would hope you would not consider aborting an unborn based on any of the above.

So you’ve never had sex with a woman you’d be unwilling to father a child with?

SusieBlue

cournioni wrote: »

All the more reason to abstain from even associating with those men. Not all men are dopes like the ones you’ve depicted above.

I don’t need to create an ideal world, all it takes is a little thinking before doing and taking responsibility for my own actions. Everything else is beyond my control.

The issue being that by the time you realise they’re like that, you’re either having a scare or already pregnant.
It’s grand saying not to associate with men like that, but that isn’t much use if you’re already pregnant with their child and they now have no interest.
I can completely understand why a woman who isn’t in a position to have a baby might have an abortion if the father was carrying on like that.
Perhaps if men lived up to their responsibilities for their born children the abortion rate would go down?

You’re also absolving them of responsibility there by saying women should abstain from even associating with them, how about men just agree to wear condoms and pay their maintenance and and not pressure their partners into abortions? What’s so difficult about any of that?

I know a girl whose child’s father pays €7 a week in maintenance for their son. He works full time yet claims this is all he can afford. That’s the reality of it.

I presume you hold yourself to the same standard and only have sex with women you are interested in starting a family with?

Multipass

Experience_day wrote: »

Wut. A human is a animal now? Only a dullard would compare us to animals. Thank God we don't have direct democracy with idiotic views like that....

Killing an animal involves suffering of a sentient being, which is far more upsetting to me than denying an embryo the chance to develop.

cournioni

SusieBlue wrote: »

The issue being that by the time you realise they’re like that, you’re either having a scare or already pregnant.
It’s grand saying not to associate with men like that, but that isn’t much use if you’re already pregnant with their child and they now have no interest.
I can completely understand why a woman who isn’t in a position to have a baby might have an abortion if the father was carrying on like that.
Perhaps if men lived up to their responsibilities for their born children the abortion rate would go down?

You’re also absolving them of responsibility there by saying women should abstain from even associating with them, how about men just agree to wear condoms and pay their maintenance and and not pressure their partners into abortions? What’s so difficult about any of that?

I know a girl whose child’s father pays €7 a week in maintenance for their son. He works full time yet claims this is all he can afford. That’s the reality of it.

I presume you hold yourself to the same standard and only have sex with women you are interested in starting a family with?

How well do you know that man before sleeping with him? Surely if he’s sending out messages like - I don’t like how condoms feel etc etc you should be hearing alarm bells! It’s not too difficult to spot gormless idiots like them.

Still, it is not a reason for any person to kill an unborn, and that is the whole point of the majority of the No side here. Why kill a healthy innocent unborn baby because of selfish actions of the father and/or mother?!

I am not absolving men of any responsibility at all, as I’ve already outlined in other posts here! They need to be equally responsible for the upbringing of the child. Some men are sleaze bags only after one thing, that is the reality of it.

I hold myself to the standard that I’ve set out in my previous post. If it worked out that I didn’t like the mother any more then I would still need to take full responsibility for the child that I helped create! That’s called being responsible, both men and women should practice it more often.

cournioni

KiKi III wrote: »

So you’ve never had sex with a woman you’d be unwilling to father a child with?

Would it be a shock if I said I didn’t? Even if I did, I certainly wouldn’t want to have it aborted just to shirk responsibility for it. That is beyond comprehension.

KiKi III

cournioni wrote: »

How well do you know that man before sleeping with him? Surely if he’s sending out messages like - I don’t like how condoms feel etc etc you should be hearing alarm bells! It’s not too difficult to spot gormless idiots like them.

Still, it is not a reason for any person to kill an unborn, and that is the whole point of the majority of the No side here. Why kill a healthy innocent unborn baby because of selfish actions of the father and/or mother?!

I am not absolving men of any responsibility at all, as I’ve already outlined in other posts here! They need to be equally responsible for the upbringing of the child. Some men are sleaze bags only after one thing, that is the reality of it.

I hold myself to the standard that I’ve set out in my previous post. If it worked out that I didn’t like the mother any more then I would still need to take full responsibility for the child that I helped create! That’s called being responsible, both men and women should practice it more often.

That’s YOUR definition of being responsible. Many women who have abortions are doing the most responsible thing as they see it.

SusieBlue

cournioni wrote: »

How well do you know that man before sleeping with him? Surely if he’s sending out messages like - I don’t like how condoms feel etc etc you should be hearing alarm bells! It’s not too difficult to spot gormless idiots like them.

Still, it is not a reason for any person to kill an unborn, and that is the whole point of the majority of the No side here. Why kill a healthy innocent unborn baby because of selfish actions of the father and/or mother?!

I am not absolving men of any responsibility at all, as I’ve already outlined in other posts here! They need to be equally responsible for the upbringing of the child. Some men are sleaze bags only after one thing, that is the reality of it.

I hold myself to the standard that I’ve set out in my previous post. If it worked out that I didn’t like the mother any more then I would still need to take full responsibility for the child that I helped create! That’s called being responsible, both men and women should practice it more often.

Personal responsibility is subjective, and sometimes having an abortion is the responsible thing to do, even if you don’t agree with it.
I don’t get what’s so hard about that to understand. Bringing an unwanted child that you do not have the means, ability or support to look after is quite the opposite of being responsible in my opinion.
If you disagree that’s your prerogative, but you don’t get to make that choice on behalf of strangers.

KiKi III

cournioni wrote: »

Would it be a shock if I said I didn’t? Even if I did, I certainly wouldn’t want to have it aborted just to shirk responsibility for it. That is beyond comprehension.

Maybe you should start a campaign for men to be more like you and step up, use protection and care for any unintended children financially and emotionally.

If women who got pregnant by accident felt more supported, they would probably have abortions less often.

Time to get men to step up.

cournioni

KiKi III wrote: »

That’s YOUR definition of being responsible. Many women who have abortions are doing the most responsible thing as they see it.

Sorry, but that’s selfish. If you (royal) don’t want a child, don’t do the deed, don’t have it killed.

KiKi III

cournioni wrote: »

Sorry, but that’s selfish. If you (royal) don’t want a child, don’t do the deed, don’t have it killed.

Totally fine for you to hold that opinion, but that’s all it is - your opinion. And one most people don’t share.

cournioni

SusieBlue wrote: »

Personal responsibility is subjective, and sometimes having an abortion is the responsible thing to do, even if you don’t agree with it.
I don’t get what’s so hard about that to understand. Bringing an unwanted child that you do not have the means, ability or support to look after is quite the opposite of being responsible in my opinion.
If you disagree that’s your prerogative, but you don’t get to make that choice on behalf of strangers.

It’s not responsible. The responsible thing to do is to take measures to prevent it from happening, know the risks and accept the consequences. Not to take the life away because it didn’t work out as planned.

oyvey

KiKi III wrote: »

I think a woman should be allowed have an abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason.

Ok. But having one because a guy hates condoms, that so avoidable.

cournioni

KiKi III wrote: »

Totally fine for you to hold that opinion, but that’s all it is - your opinion. And one most people don’t share.

Unfortunate reality of living in the “new Ireland” where responsibility doesn’t follow actions.

Sardonicat

cournioni wrote: »

How well do you know that man before sleeping with him?

And now we get the slut shaming.

That's a disgraceful question you put to KiKi.

KiKi III

cournioni wrote: »

Unfortunate reality of living in the “new Ireland” where responsibility doesn’t follow actions.

You’re simply incapable of seeing responsibility in any other way than how you’ve defined it for yourself.

SusieBlue

Sardonicat wrote: »

And now we get the slut shaming.

That's a disgraceful question you put to KiKi.

Always the woman’s fault, the woman should know better, the woman should be responsible and the woman should have to live with the consequences at all costs even though men already have an out that they already regularly utilise.

You’d be forgiven for thinking women could get pregnant of their own accord with no input from a man.

cournioni

Sardonicat wrote: »

And now we get the slut shaming.

That's a disgraceful question you put to KiKi.

I was assuming we were being hypothetical, but okay.

oyvey

Sardonicat wrote: »

And now we get the slut shaming.

That's a disgraceful question you put to KiKi.

You're way off there, nobody was slut shaming.

KiKi III

Personally I think pushing the angle that anyone who does not currently want to raise a new baby (including everyone from horny 17 year olds to married parents with two or three kids) should be entirely celibate is irresponsible.

You’re asking people to deny impulses that are at the heart of human nature.

SusieBlue

cournioni wrote: »

Unfortunate reality of living in the “new Ireland” where responsibility doesn’t follow actions.

Abortion isn’t a new concept, abortions have always happened here and will always happen here.
We just looked the other way and pretended it wasn’t happening while we shipped our women off to the UK before the referendum.

cournioni

KiKi III wrote: »

You’re simply incapable of seeing responsibility in any other way than how you’ve defined it for yourself.

Well, my way doesn’t involve anything being killed.

cournioni

SusieBlue wrote: »

Abortion isn’t a new concept, abortions have always happened here and will always happen here.
We just looked the other way and pretended it wasn’t happening while we shipped our women off to the UK before the referendum.

None of that makes it right. If we’re on about responsibility, it should start before conception.

SusieBlue

cournioni wrote: »

None of that makes it right. If we’re on about responsibility, it should start before conception.

Yeah and as has already been explained several times, your idea of responsibility isn’t the only one or the correct one.
Women deserve compassion, dignity and respect and not to be shipped off to foreign healthcare systems. They are more important and valuable than the contents of their wombs.

KiKi III

cournioni wrote: »

Well, my way doesn’t involve anything being killed.

Here’s how I see it. A miscarriage occurs when, for one reason or another, a woman’s body rejects a pregnancy. This happens very frequently.

An abortion happens when a woman’s mind, for one reason or another, rejects a pregnancy.

When a woman’s body makes the decision, we offer her empathy. When her mind makes the decision, you offer her only judgement.

But it’s the same thing that has happened in either scenario from the point of view of the foetus.

cournioni

SusieBlue wrote: »

Always the woman’s fault, the woman should know better, the woman should be responsible and the woman should have to live with the consequences at all costs even though men already have an out that they already regularly utilise.

You’d be forgiven for thinking women could get pregnant of their own accord with no input from a man.

I guess you missed the part where I said that some men are out for only one thing, where they are dopes, gormless idiots, those people are to be avoided etc.?

None of that makes them any less responsible for pregnancy occurring. They should share that responsibility. The fact that some don’t an embarrassment to men.

cournioni

KiKi III wrote: »

Here’s how I see it. A miscarriage occurs when, for one reason or another, a woman’s body rejects a pregnancy. This happens very frequently.

An abortion happens when a woman’s mind, for one reason or another, rejects a pregnancy.

When a woman’s body makes the decision, we offer her empathy. When her mind makes the decision, you offer her only judgement.

But it’s the same thing that has happened in either scenario from the point of view of the foetus.

A miscarriage is a natural event. An abortion is not.

oyvey

KiKi III wrote: »

You’re simply incapable of seeing responsibility in any other way than how you’ve defined it for yourself.

As a side point, even if you consider an abortion as taking responsibility there are certain risks associated with abortion itself. So responsibility before conception is the ultimate form of responsibility in this case - no life aborted, no harmful side affects to the woman.

KiKi III

cournioni wrote: »

A miscarriage is a natural event. An abortion is not.

So? It makes no difference whatsoever to the foetus. Pregnancies end all the time; what difference does it make to you whether it was a woman’s body or her mind that made that choice?

KiKi III

oyvey wrote: »

As a side point, even if you consider an abortion as taking responsibility there are certain risks associated with abortion itself. So responsibility before conception is the ultimate form of responsibility in this case - no life aborted, no harmful side affects to the woman.

Yes, and most people take precautions most of the time. That’s the norm.