Covid19 Part XIX-25,802 in ROI (1,753 deaths) 5,859 in NI (556 deaths) (21/07)Read OP

hmmm

JDD wrote: »

And again, surely none of this is a surprise. Isn't an increase in cases and the R rate going over 1 exactly what they were planning for when reopening the economy?

The plan was to keep the R rate at about 1 or less. Once it goes over 1 we are in trouble. I know you think cases will go up and then come down, but that's just your opinion. There's a very fine balance here, and no-one really knows where the balance is.

Israel is a good example of a modern country which did well to stop the initial wave, opened up too quickly and then the virus got away from them - now they are having to consider going back into a lockdown.

Sofa King Great

giveitholly wrote: »

That is your area though,there is plenty of rural areas where there is no pub open for miles,talking to people yesterday evening and this morning and people are fairly pissed off with the government,they have done everything that has been asked of them since early March,they were looking forward to having a few quiet pints with their neighbours and get a bit of social interaction again with the community but that has been taken away from them now.Of course in big towns and cities there is plenty of choice to have a pint.Who is going to drive 40/50km for that privilege. Yet again it seems like two fingers are been given to the rural community

There is a trade off to living in rural areas, peace and quiet and cheaper housing being the positive, lack of amenities being the negative. If people want to be close to amenities let them move to the big towns

owlbethere

I read about the party that happened in kerry last weekend. Apparently someone tested positive but still went to the party.

There's nothing as a deterrent to stop people from behaving the same way going forward. Pubs opening is going to be a nightmare for more covid19 cases. Like if someone has a cold, which could be the start of a flu or virus, do you really think they will stay at home? Will they fcuk. Instead of a smaller group of people being exposed to virus at a house party, there would be more people exposed in a pub setting.

Boggles

giveitholly wrote: »

That is your area though,there is plenty of rural areas where there is no pub open for miles

Nonsense, rural pubs have changed with the times and the majority of them provide at least a bar menu now.

Some of the most successful ones have hired good chefs and people travel for miles from urban areas to drink and dine there.

It's not 1992 anymore FFS.

robbiezero

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Indeed.

Which makes all the attempts to paint anyone against the pushing back of reopening as alcoholics look ridiculous, doesn't it?

Spot on. I could go 400 yards down the road right now and drink enough pints to float a small ship if I wanted.

I'm thinking more about my old uncle who is a farmer for whom a few pints in the village pub is his only social outlet and was really looking forward to seeing his cronies again or the deep frustration of that pub and multiple others who long to get back to work.

But the narrative that people looking for pubs to open are foaming alcoholics has been peddled here since the start of the crisis.

Hurrache

robbiezero wrote: »

Ha Ha indeed.

Montreal opened bars. Had handful of cases related to bars. Dealing with it.

Why does that not apply to Ireland?

And you obviously disregard the row back and re-closure of bars in other places.

Like I said, you guys are so obviously predictable as to how you selectively chose and ignore reality.

giveitholly

Sofa King Great wrote: »

There is a trade off to living in rural areas, peace and quiet and cheaper housing being the positive, lack of amenities being the negative. If people want to be close to amenities let them move to the big towns

And what about the amenities that already there,Can they not stay there or do they have to go as well,why are the government trying to get rid of them

Random sample

Widdensushi wrote: »

What good is it if the R0 goes down, it only means that it will go up again, our borders are open and R0 means nothing at lower numbers, no need to be condescending about the masks, what is the mandatory wearing of masks in supermarkets based on as the existing measures were working? Are ff trying to change the news headlines? It looks like it.

There’s no harm in trying to control the R0. If NPHET think it’s important, and there’s no evidence against it, I’m happy with that.

The existing measures were based on small numbers shopping. The question is what can we do to allow more people into shops safely, and the answer they have come up with is to ask people to wear masks.

ACitizenErased

They’re scared ****-less about the long weekend. That’s the only reason it’s been pushed back.

giveitholly

Boggles wrote: »

Nonsense, rural pubs have changed with the times and the majority of them provide at least a bar menu now.

Some of the most successful ones have hired good chefs and people travel for miles from urban areas to drink and dine there.

It's not 1992 anymore FFS.

No its not nonsense,majority of rural pubs around where I live don't provide food

Sofa King Great

giveitholly wrote: »

And what about the amenities that already there,Can they not stay there or do they have to go as well,why are the government trying to get rid of them

Apologies, is it only rural pubs that are still closed? I must have missed that bit

giveitholly

Sofa King Great wrote: »

Apologies, is it only rural pubs that are still closed? I must have missed that bit

I never said that,thanks for the apology though

US2

marno21 wrote: »

Does the pubs restriction also apply to residents bars for guests staying overnight ?

I stayed in a hotel last weekend, no way would they give me 1 pint without food. Cheapest food on the menu was 18 quid.

Gruffalox

Gruffalox wrote: »

Unlike boards posters who can rage without consequence the people who have to make these sorts of decisions will have to live with the actual historical legacy. They can see places like Israel. They cannot be as coldly utilitarian as some on here want them to be. Politicians elsewhere eg UK or Sweden have to live with knowing their actions led to increased death numbers. If I was in charge I would err on the side of caution. Build a fire pit in the backyard and drink saluting the moon for a few more weeks - the pubs are not all that.

Israel never got cases to our low level and opened way to early. In fact multiple countries who never got as low as our current rate are still chugging along nicely at a low level. There is no precedence of a major resurgence is a country who achieved close our level of suppression and maintained some social distancing and track and trace measures. It is a massive over reaction

Boggles

US2 wrote: »

I stayed in a hotel last weekend, no way would they give me 1 pint without food. Cheapest food on the menu was 18 quid.

Which hotel?

Doctor Jimbob

Hurrache wrote: »

And you obviously disregard the row back and re-closure of bars in other places.

Like I said, you guys are so obviously predictable as to how you selectively chose and ignore reality.

Similarly, plenty of people are selectively ignoring the reality that plenty of countries are opening up without issue. Or that we're continuing to let tourists come in from virus hotspots despite NPHET being concerned about travel.

I have no issue with a cautious approach if it's applied equally across the board but that no longer seems to be what's happening. If I was a pub owner being told I can't open while tourists can freely travel from Texas or Florida, I'd be furious.

wadacrack

wadacrack wrote: »

7 day moving average July 7th was 9
7 day moving average July 14th jumped to 20

Erring on the side of caution is the correct move for me. Claiming that its just due to small clusters etc is not a good argument. I think most counties have had cases within the last 2 weeks. If we open pubs quickly now schools unlikely to open and Sports unlikely to proceed. Another hard lockdown increasingly likely and everything the country has worked hard for to protect society will be lost. People need to try and think of the long term implications if we rush out of this. Its going to be long haul dealing with this virus, pushing back plans 3 weeks likely to prove to be a good decision in the long term. Countries that act quickly on a sudden surge have fared much better as seen in Asia . Israel and Eastern Europe sadly now are struggling with a 2nd wave

To name just two countries, in the past few weeks Austria went from 30 to 90 in 7 day average, Czech Republic went from 50 to 150 and back to 90. Neither of these places overreacted to a small increase as they understand that when you get to low levels you will see volatility, and more importantly, the level of control required to eliminate is not compatible with a sustainable society. The exercise control, but not a vice

Hurrache

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Similarly, plenty of people are selectively ignoring the reality that plenty of countries are opening up without issue. Or that we're continuing to let tourists come in from virus hotspots despite NPHET being concerned about travel.

I have no issue with a cautious approach if it's applied equally across the board but that no longer seems to be what's happening. If I was a pub owner being told I can't open while tourists can freely travel from Texas or Florida, I'd be furious.

I'm aware of countries opening up without issue, but the impact of bars opening up is evidential and cannot be ignored. People can say it'll be well behaved and everyone will remain socially distant, but that's not the reality of how things will pan out.

And the number of cases recorded coming from hotspots is negligible compared to the hype around it. People cast hysterical stones at tourists swamping our country spreading the disease with one hand, while accusing those who don't disagree with the pubs remaining closed as hysterical with the other. I do believe that stricter controls are required for those arriving from the US and the UK.

I can give or take the pubs remaining closed, but I see the logic in them remaining closed.

opinionated3

Boggles wrote: »

Nonsense, rural pubs have changed with the times and the majority of them provide at least a bar menu now.

Some of the most successful ones have hired good chefs and people travel for miles from urban areas to drink and dine there.

It's not 1992 anymore FFS.

Majority of village pub's near me, and I'm close to three villages, don't sell food. So that's utter rubbish on your part. Two pub's do food, and their prices are aimed at American tourists so I wouldn't exactly be be heading there every weekend.
All I've been looking for is a quiet pint in my local, once a week, with the handful of regulars that frequent the place. But clearly, that's considered more dangerous than a house party with young ones who couldn't care less about covid. If, as a country, we need to keep this up, the damage to mental health will be catastrophic, not to mention the delays to various cancer screenings etc. I believe the government has decided to side with the experts who want the zero covid Island. Even though that means destroying our tourism and aviation industries...

robbiezero

Hurrache wrote: »

And you obviously disregard the row back and re-closure of bars in other places.

Like I said, you guys are so obviously predictable as to how you selectively chose and ignore reality.

Ah other places now. Why can't you answer the question about Montreal?

and you obviously disregard the non-re-closure of bars in other places. Equally predictable.

Boggles

ACitizenErased wrote: »

They’re scared ****-less about the long weekend. That’s the only reason it’s been pushed back.

I imagine it is more to do with their being an upward trend on instances of the virus with the majority being community spread.

Up 55% on the last 14 days.

Small numbers, but still, we know what can happen from small numbers.

The reality is if they let the pubs have it and are unable to open schools fully at the end of the next month there will be proper anger and economic hardship.

And when I say anger I don't mean people whinging about pubs when the majority of them have been opened already for nearly 3 weeks. :pac:

Hurrache

robbiezero wrote: »

Ah other places now. Why can't you answer the question about Montreal?

and you obviously disregard the non-re-closure of bars in other places. Equally predictable.

Is it a playbook that's distributed around that you work from? Like I said, you chose to ignore half the original post, because you don't want to deal with it.

B.A._Baracus

Dante7 wrote: »

A second wave with a 0.3% positivity rate from extensive testing? The government's soundbite scare propaganda seems to be working well.

People have died from this. If I am wrong then I am wrong. But where I am coming from is still taking this very serious.

I personally believe we are at the start of a second wave. If you don't, fine.
But you say scare mongering... What would you have us do Mr internet expert? Open everything back up and sure be grand lads.

Maybe it is all grand lads. Forget the WHO, Dante7 from boards.ie says it's fine. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for you on the rte news later :pac:

Boggles

opinionated3 wrote: »

Majority of village pub's near me, and I'm close to three villages, don't sell food.

I can't name a village near me that the majority of pubs don't do at least a bar menu.

Dozen of villages off the top of my head.

I'd say at least half the ones who didn't diversify into food have since closed.

The majority of pubs are open. Stop whinging. Bigger picture.

LiquidZeb

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Seems like the second wave is among us.
Pubs should remain closed until September. See what's going on first. I know it's hard on the pub industry however people are idiots.

What's happening in September? Does covid go on an Autumn trip to Paris around then or something? I don't think people are idiots many people have sacrificed a lot financially and emotionally and they don't deserved to be lumped together as idiots by some internet 'intellectual. '

NegativeCreep

Boggles wrote: »

I can't name a village near me that the majority of pubs don't do at least a bar menu.

Dozen of villages off the top of my head.

I'd say at least half the ones who didn't diversify into food have since closed.

The majority of pubs are open. Stop whinging. Bigger picture.

If the majority of pubs are open then what’s the point in keeping a minority closed? Does that not just mean more people in fewer pubs? Is it fair to the people who work in the pubs that are now closed that the pub next door could be open just because they sell a plate of nachos for 9 quid?

robbiezero

Boggles wrote: »

I can't name a village near me that the majority of pubs don't do at least a bar menu.

Dozen of villages off the top of my head.

I'd say at least half the ones who didn't diversify into food have since closed.

The majority of pubs are open. Stop whinging. Bigger picture.

Name the area?

I know West Tipperary quite well. Outside of Cashel and Tipp town I'd say you could count the number of pubs on one hand that serve food.

RebelButtMunch

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Anecdotal; but I've heard of people NOT going for tests and toughing out the virus at home. Reason; they think that the health insurers will increase their coverage charge because of suspected Covid long term effects on health.

Anyone else hear that?

Health insurers cant do that, in Ireland at least. We have community rating.

robbiezero

Hurrache wrote: »

Is it a playbook that's distributed around that you work from? Like I said, you chose to ignore half the original post, because you don't want to deal with it.

What part have I ignored?

Why don't you answer what I have asked about Montreal instead of whataboutery on other places when you were asked.

Or maybe just go back to spamming threads whining about SF. The irony of a shill like you talking about working from a playbook.

Boggles

NegativeCreep wrote: »

If the majority of pubs are open then what’s the point in keeping a minority closed? Does that not just mean more people in fewer pubs? Is it fair to the people who work in the pubs that are now closed that the pub next door could be open just because they sell a plate of nachos for 9 quid?

Because all pubs were not supposed to open until phase 5.

It was only supposed to be restaurants, the Vintners put pressure on the government to include pubs who could act like restaurants.

As for what is the point in keeping pubs closed where restrictions are far more lax and have been proven to be a key area where the virus spreads?

I'd nearly say you could take a stab at that one.

Doctor Jimbob

Hurrache wrote: »

I'm aware of countries opening up without issue, but the impact of bars opening up is evidential and cannot be ignored. People can say it'll be well behaved and everyone will remain socially distant, but that's not the reality of how things will pan out.

And the number of cases recorded coming from hotspots is negligible compared to the hype around it. People cast hysterical stones at tourists swamping our country spreading the disease with one hand, while accusing those who don't disagree with the pubs remaining closed as hysterical with the other. I do believe that stricter controls are required for those arriving from the US and the UK.

I can give or take the pubs remaining closed, but I see the logic in them remaining closed.

I can see the logic of them remaining closed in isolation, but it seems strange compared to the lax attitude to tourists coming in.

Agreed that the cases from hotspots are less than the hype would suggest, but it's still an issue worth looking at IMO. NPHET and the government have both been vocal about their concern on this, yet there's no concrete action being taken. Does that not strike you as odd?

Edit: Just got a notification on my phone that testing is under consideration for flights from hotspots. Fair enough, that seems like a logical approach, credit where it's due.

B.A._Baracus

LiquidZeb wrote: »

What's happening in September? Does covid go on an Autumn trip to Paris around then or something? I don't think people are idiots many people have sacrificed a lot financially and emotionally and they don't deserved to be lumped together as idiots by some internet 'intellectual. '

Anything but an internet intellectual. My keyboard is for typing, not hiding behind.

But yes. People are idiots. Sure to quote Tommy Lee Jones from Men in Black 1: "a person can be smart but people are dumb"

But do you need examples of the world's stupidity? ... Cause there are a lot dude.

NegativeCreep

Boggles wrote: »

Because all pubs were not supposed to open until phase 5.

It was only supposed to be restaurants, the Vintners put pressure on the government to include pubs who could act like restaurants.

As for what is the point in keeping pubs closed where restrictions are far more lax and have been proven to be a key area where the virus spreads?

I'd nearly say you could take a stab at that one.

So because a place sells food for 9 quid they’re less likely to spread the virus than a place that doesn’t? Makes loads of sense and is definitely a reason to keep thousands of people out of a job and keep them on the Covid payment that we have the pleasure of paying.

Also who said the restrictions would be far more lax? That’s your own conjuring

caveat emptor

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I can see the logic of them remaining closed in isolation, but it seems strange compared to the lax attitude to tourists coming in.

Agreed that the cases from hotspots are less than the hype would suggest, but it's still an issue worth looking at IMO. NPHET and the government have both been vocal about their concern on this, yet there's no concrete action being taken. Does that not strike you as odd?

Edit: Just got a notification on my phone that testing is under consideration for flights from hotspots. Fair enough, that seems like a logical approach, credit where it's due.

Very odd indeed. It’s funny that if we went towards trying to get to zero everything would be open again.

Letting tourists and non necessary travel in without quarantine is a recipe for schools not opening. I honestly believe the Donald’s golf resort is factored into letting tourists in. Makes no sense.
We can’t travel.
We can’t travel to US.
Yet They can come in.

If there have been 6 cases from US and r0 is greater than one then in 4 days time (doubling time) we’ll have 6 cases directly from this 6 and however many have come in in the mean time. I.e it will grow slowly at first then quickly. This is a bigger threat than pubs IMHO.

If people need hospital care. How many HCW will get infected subsequently.

Blaming publicans is not ideal.

hmmm

NegativeCreep wrote: »

So because a place sells food for 9 quid they’re less likely to spread the virus than a place that doesn’t?

Yes. Seated table service, limited time indoors, less alcohol so better at social distancing, less likelihood of singing, shouting at matches etc. all decreases risk.

This phase is meant to be about restaurants. The pubs which are operating as pubs by allowing people to sit there all night just drinking, but pretending to be restaurants, are not operating within the intention of reopening in this phase.

Hurrache

robbiezero wrote: »

What part have I ignored?

See below. You've fixated on the Canada bit.

Hurrache wrote: »

But a more apt comparison is with bars in party, vacation and university towns throughout America, and Canada like the one mentioned in the tweet.

You obviously have me confused with someone else because I have no idea what you're talking about below. Who am I allegedly a shill for, can't wait to find out, I have hours of billable work I need to submit.

robbiezero wrote: »

Or maybe just go back to spamming threads whining about SF. The irony of a shill like you talking about working from a playbook.

Gruffalux

NegativeCreep wrote: »

If the majority of pubs are open then what’s the point in keeping a minority closed? Does that not just mean more people in fewer pubs? Is it fair to the people who work in the pubs that are now closed that the pub next door could be open just because they sell a plate of nachos for 9 quid?

Jayziz could the people who own the closed pubs not learn to make a club sandwich and a side of rice krispie buns.

Boggles

NegativeCreep wrote: »

So because a place sells food for 9 quid they’re less likely to spread the virus than a place that doesn’t?

Yes, controlled restaurants or pubs acting like them are far less likely to spread the virus than pubs.

I fail to see how that could confuse anyone what has been in an Irish pub.

CalamariFritti

Reading these threads is so depressing. People have left their brains at the door large scale and yet they are thinking they are the rational/sensible ones. There is no talking to them its like COVID is the new religion. I gonna have to self-impose a COVID threads ban its beginning the affect my mental health. Good bye.

NegativeCreep

hmmm wrote: »

Yes. Seated table service, limited time indoors, less alcohol so better at social distancing, less likelihood of singing, shouting at matches etc. all decreases risk.

This phase is meant to be about restaurants. The pubs which are operating as pubs by allowing people to sit there all night just drinking, but pretending to be restaurants, are not operating within the intention of reopening in this phase.

So table service with pints and turn the tellys off? This phase was about restaurants and that’s grand. But the next phase on Monday was supposed to be about pubs.

LiquidZeb

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Anything but an internet intellectual. My keyboard is for typing, not hiding behind.

But yes. People are idiots. Sure to quote Tommy Lee Jones from Men in Black 1: "a person can be smart but people are dumb"

But do you need examples of the world's stupidity? ... Cause there are a lot dude.

And there are just as many examples of people pulling together and doing what has to be done for the greater good. As has been happening here for the past 4 months with little complaint from the majority of the population, credit where it's due.

mloc123

Watching the Scottish update here... They have over 600 people in hospital compared to our.. 13?

stephenjmcd

Boggles wrote: »

Yes, controlled restaurants or pubs acting like them are far less likely to spread the virus than pubs.

I fail to see how that could confuse anyone what has been in an Irish pub.

So my €9 chicken wings are stopping the virus ?? Get a grip a portion of €9 food makes no odds if someone's going to get drunk or not.

The only difference on Monday would have been no food, still would have had social distancing, table service, everything that's in place already.

So please tell me how that €9 portion of food makes any difference when you've every other measure in place.

Likewise goes for Leo here

https://twitter.com/SeanDefoe/status/1283720880275816450?s=19

stephenjmcd

Not even a day in already
https://twitter.com/SeanDefoe/status/1283724905842958336?s=19

YFlyer

Work colleague was in Tramore last weekend. Said that there was no social distancing or cleaning seats at the amusement park.

US2

I think the food thing and time limit is making people get more drunk. Seen plenty friends on social media posting their receipts. Maybe a pizza or chips and wings plus 6 pints, 3 whiskeys, a bottle of wine. All consumed at rapid speed. In and out of the shared toilet every few mins.

hmmm

NegativeCreep wrote: »

So table service with pints and turn the tellys off? This phase was about restaurants and that’s grand. But the next phase on Monday was supposed to be about pubs.

Table service, tellies off, time limits - that would work I think, but how would you enforce it? The vitners themselves could do with coming forward with suggestions to how they would police their industry - there's a lot of pubs taking the piss in the current phase, that has to have influenced government opinion. It's the more responsible pubs which are losing out ultimately.

mloc123

YFlyer wrote: »

Work colleague was in Tramore last weekend. Said that there was no social distancing or cleaning seats at the amusement park.

Hope they used common sense and avoided it so...

Boggles

stephenjmcd wrote: »

So my €9 chicken wings are stopping the virus ?? Get a grip a portion of €9 food makes no odds if someone's going to get drunk or not.

The only difference on Monday would have been no food, still would have had social distancing, table service, everything that's in place already.

Really, where did you get a copy of the guidelines?

caveat emptor

I'd say the vintners will join forces with scientists and start pushing for a zero covid island.

It's either that or remain shut for the foreseeable. The virus isn't going to change how it's transmitted.

Better to curtail the losses and let the alcoholics in that you know rather than the alcoholics you don't.

Their business model probably follows the Pareto principal.

i.e 20% of people drink 80% of the pints.