Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

hetuzozaho

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I watched the debate also.

So if we both watched the debate. Can we not discuss it without deflecting to media bias.

Do you agree Trump did not condemn the Proud Boys.

I agree he said he would. But then he did not.

Agreed?

the immortals

The question about denouncing white supremacist groups was disingenuous, what white supremacist groups are causing havoc or are on the rise in the USA? Trump was rightly pissed off by that question as the rioting and destruction of businesses that is still ongoing is by groups who will all be voting democrat, antifa, blm, there grand, white supremacist groups my hole

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Several posts deleted. Please post in a constructive and original manner. Oneupmanship, snide comments, insults and link dumps are not permitted here. Thanks.

ancapailldorcha

Lawrencesummers banned for ignoring their threadban. Please do not respond to their posts. Let's get back on topic please.

droidus

the immortals wrote: »

The question about denouncing white supremacist groups was disingenuous, what white supremacist groups are causing havoc or are on the rise in the USA? Trump was rightly pissed off by that question as the rioting and destruction of businesses that is still ongoing is by groups who will all be voting democrat, antifa, blm, there grand, white supremacist groups my hole

According to the FBI, DHS, CSIS and numerous other law enforcement and security agencies, right wing and white supremacists commit the most violent acts and pose the greatest threat of terrorism. The right kills more people than all other threats combined and its been that way for quite some time.



White Supremacists, Domestic Terrorists Pose Biggest Threat Of ‘Lethal Violence’ This Election, DHS Assessment Finds

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/09/18/white-supremacists-domestic-terrorists-pose-biggest-threat-of-lethal-violence-this-election-dhs-assessment-finds/#7197462e4287

The FBI is placing the risk of violence from such groups "on the same footing" as threats posed to the country by foreign terrorist organizations such as ISIS and its sympathizers.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/racially-motivated-violent-extremism-isis-national-threat-priority-fbi-director-christopher-wray/

The United States faces a growing terrorism problem that will likely worsen over the next year. Based on a CSIS data set of terrorist incidents, the most significant threat likely comes from white supremacists

https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-united-states

In a report released last week, the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) analyzed 25 years of domestic terrorism incidents, finding that “right-wing attacks and plots account for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994,” outpacing terrorist acts by all other sources such as “far-left networks and individuals inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaeda.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/7116354/far-right-violence-america-terrorism-threat/

spacecoyote

Rezident wrote: »

42% of americans are still voting for him, apparently. It seems unlikely that 42% of 335m people can be stupid. Ignorance of wider/foreign issues seems a possibility but I think the biggest reason must be the Fear. Fear of the radical Left.



I am pretty worried about the radical Left too, radicals on both sides of the political divide and in general have ruined this world and things are not getting better. COVID looks set to doom the presidency of whoever wins the electoral college race. Presumably Biden must win the popular vote at this stage.

Can someone please explain to me who the "Radical Left" are. From what I can see it appears to just be some sort of media construct from the likes of Fox News and a few Republican talking heads.

There are defined Right Wing terrorist groups. To my knowledge there are no left wing terror groups acknowledged as existing in the US.

There have been rioters who have taken advantage of the peaceful protesting that took place, but to me that seems more like opportunists with no real political affiliation to the left or right.

The significant violence and killing that has taken place during the protests, from my memory have been on the side of the right leaning individuals enables by Trumps language

amandstu

Patser wrote: »

I get that he could say Stand back instead of Stand down - and that they do have a significant difference in meaning.

But the Stand by? Stand by means still be ready, that's not condemnation, that's not misspeak, that's not a mix up.

Who could be stupid enough to think that Trump would ask Proud Boys to "stand down"? (and misspeak to say "stand back"...)

Penn

amandstu wrote: »

Who could be stupid enough to think that Trump would ask Proud Boys to "stand down"? (and misspeak to say "stand back"...)

Don Jr. That seems to be their best bet, claim Trump was trying to say to Stand Down in order to prevent violence, clashes with "antifa" etc.

Even then it wouldn't constitute denouncing white supremacists like he was asked, and would still imply Trump gives them orders, thereby tying him to them and their actions.

5GMadeMeDoIt

SNIP. No more silly comments please.

StringerBell

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s the moderators fault that he constantly allowed the debaters to go off topic and he didn’t do enough to bring them back to what was asked.

What would you have had him do? Specifics please, I want to know what you think he could and should have realistically done?

He practically shouted at trump during that "fumbling" of the answer about the extremist right wing groups to just say it then if he was "willing to condemn right wing groups"

I'm eager to know how you suggest dealing with trump in debate format as a moderator.

Edit: apologies I didn't see the warning before posting.

abff

lawrencesummers wrote: »

And it’s a pity that Biden didn’t have the wherewithal to do it at the time.

As others have said, that was not a missed opportunity by Biden. That was Biden realising that Trump had just made a major gaffe and being astute enough not to give him a chance to weasel out if it.

EDIT: I also didn’t see the mod’s message before posting. I tried to delete this post, but wasn’t able to for some reason.

kingtiger

Snip.. No video dumps please

StringerBell

kingtiger wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO1o66Ti2bA

Fixed it for you.

duploelabs

duploelabs wrote: »

Apologies for the misnomer, I meant to say far right bunch of c*nts

Cool. So you agree they aren't white supremacists but had no issue labeling them as such.

And people wonder accusations of racism and the likes aren't taken seriously when "the left" level them at people?

You don't like proud boys, but feel justified in calling them white supremacists.

Bizarre.

StringerBell

Gavin McInnes is pretty clear enough on his views no?

Oh, I'm "the centre" in case you were wondering how to label me.

PopePalpatine

"Well ackshually they're not white supremacists, just chauvinists."

PopePalpatine

PopePalpatine wrote: »

"Well ackshually they're not white supremacists, just chauvinists."

Disliking the proud boys and their behaviour is absolutely fine and they have more than enough things they can be called out on.

Calling then a white supremacist group when they aren't is unacceptable by any metric.

abff

Deleted User wrote: »

Cool. So you agree they aren't white supremacists but had no issue labeling them as such.

And people wonder accusations of racism and the likes aren't taken seriously when "the left" level them at people?

You don't like proud boys, but feel justified in calling them white supremacists.

Bizarre.

Are you suggesting that the Proud Boys are not a group of racist white supremacists?

The following are extracts from an article in the Guardian today.

“ Freshly brought to the world’s attention by Donald Trump’s refusal to condemn their associations with white supremacist ideology during Tuesday night’s US presidential debate, the US neo-fascist group the Proud Boys was created by the Canadian-British far-right activist and Vice magazine co-founder Gavin McInnes in 2016 in the lead-up to Trump’s election as president.

The group, which admits men only, was classified in 2018 by the FBI as an “extremist group”, while the US research and advocacy organization Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) lists it as a hate group. The Anti-Defamation League describes the group as misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and anti-immigration.”

“ The Proud Boys have a history of street violence against leftwing activists and protest movements. In recent months they have repeatedly turned up to oppose Black Lives Matter marches or any demonstrations where they sense an opportunity to counter, often with violence, far-left activists loosely characterized by their adherence to anti-fascist ideology and known collectively by the short-form term antifa. Last year, two members were jailed for four years for beating up anti-fascist activists in New York.”

Based on the above, do you still believe that it was unfair to classify them as white supremacists? The following extract from the article may explain why Biden picked this specific group when Trump asked the moderator to name names and why Trump refused to condemn them.

“The group are identifiable by their adopted uniform of red “Make America Great Again” caps, associated with Donald Trump’s 2016 and 2020 election campaigns,”.

While this is the aspect of Trump’s performance last night that has attracted the most comment, it was just a small part of the most depressing example of childish, bullying behaviour that I have ever witnessed from a grown man, let alone one holding the most powerful job in the world. What a deplorable, miserable excuse for a human being.

abff

abff wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the Proud Boys are not a group of racist white supremacists?

The following are extracts from an article in the Guardian today.

“ Freshly brought to the world’s attention by Donald Trump’s refusal to condemn their associations with white supremacist ideology during Tuesday night’s US presidential debate, the US neo-fascist group the Proud Boys was created by the Canadian-British far-right activist and Vice magazine co-founder Gavin McInnes in 2016 in the lead-up to Trump’s election as president.

The group, which admits men only, was classified in 2018 by the FBI as an “extremist group”, while the US research and advocacy organization Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) lists it as a hate group. The Anti-Defamation League describes the group as misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and anti-immigration.”

“ The Proud Boys have a history of street violence against leftwing activists and protest movements. In recent months they have repeatedly turned up to oppose Black Lives Matter marches or any demonstrations where they sense an opportunity to counter, often with violence, far-left activists loosely characterized by their adherence to anti-fascist ideology and known collectively by the short-form term antifa. Last year, two members were jailed for four years for beating up anti-fascist activists in New York.”

Based on the above, do you still believe that it was unfair to classify them as white supremacists? .

Yes. Based on the above, I believe it's unfair and untrue to label them white supremacists. Unless you believe that anyone who opposes BLM and antifa are white supremacist.

The fact their leader is not white, their founder is married to a person of colour and they have many non white members would be another clue.

As I said, there is plenty to call them out on, but shouting white supremacists at them is dishonest.

hetuzozaho

Fair play to him, I didn't think he would.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1311383758424035328

StringerBell

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes. Based on the above, I believe it's unfair and untrue to label them white supremacists. Unless you believe that anyone who opposes BLM and antifa are white supremacist.

The fact their leader is not white, their founder is married to a person of colour and they have many non white members would be another clue.

As I said, there is plenty to call them out on, but shouting white supremacists at them is dishonest.

Have their members white supremacist ties or organised white supremacist events?

I agree with you in a way, McInnes himself isn't about race, more "culture" anti feminist, anti Muslim etc but at this point it is fair enough to say that this group which started out as a joke has been flooded with white supremacists.

It's certainly a funny hill to die on I'd have thought because they have enough obviously repugnant qualities, which of them do you find redeeming? What's the stake?

Water John

And you believe that he doesn't know who the Proud Boys are?

abff

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. Based on the above, I believe it's unfair and untrue to label them white supremacists. Unless you believe that anyone who opposes BLM and antifa are white supremacist.

The fact their leader is not white, their founder is married to a person of colour and they have many non white members would be another clue.

As I said, there is plenty to call them out on, but shouting white supremacists at them is dishonest.

I guess it depends on how you define white supremacist. If you mean a group that has white supremacy as their sole objective, then you are correct to say that they don’t 100% fit the profile.

But I don’t think that it’s being particularly unfair to lump them into that general category. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

And if they should not be considered a white supremacist group, then why didn’t Trump say that when challenged by Biden?

hetuzozaho

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Fair play to him, I didn't think he would.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1311383758424035328

I'm not sure if that greatly changes anything. He still didn't condemn white supremacy which is bizarre..

duploelabs

Water John wrote: »

And you believe that he doesn't know who the Proud Boys are?

'I hear they like me, which is great' - Trump next week

StringerBell

StringerBell wrote: »

Have their members white supremacist ties or organised white supremacist events?

I agree with you in a way, McInnes himself isn't about race, more "culture" anti feminist, anti Muslim etc but at this point it is fair enough to say that this group which started out as a joke has been flooded with white supremacists.

It's certainly a funny hill to die on I'd have thought because they have enough obviously repugnant qualities, which of them do you find redeeming? What's the stake?

I'm not dying on any hill. I don't see how correcting people on false accusations is defending their target.

abff

abff wrote: »

I guess it depends on how you define white supremacist. If you mean a group that has white supremacy as their sole objective, then you are correct to say that they don’t 100% fit the profile.

But I don’t think that it’s being particularly unfair to lump them into that general category. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

And if they should not be considered a white supremacist group, then why didn’t Trump say that when challenged by Biden?

How do you define white supremacist then?

StringerBell

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not dying on any hill. I don't see how correcting people on false accusations is defending their target.

Can you address the other parts of the post?

hetuzozaho

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not sure if that greatly changes anything. He still didn't condemn white supremacy which is bizarre..

Think he's done that before.

I didn't think he'd tell the proud boys to stand down. So I have to hold my hands up.

duploelabs

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Cool. So you agree they aren't white supremacists but had no issue labeling them as such.

And people wonder accusations of racism and the likes aren't taken seriously when "the left" level them at people?

You don't like proud boys, but feel justified in calling them white supremacists.

Bizarre.

I acknowledged your correction and apologised.
Still doesn't stop them being a hateful shower of pricks