Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

duploelabs

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Simple logic dictates if people don't get it there's no burden on the health system, save one and you save the other, don't think there's any right or wrong strategy. No need for lies though as it undermines everything else you say.

It shouldn't be political but Biden has made them political and Fauci by backing Bidens mandate plan is pretty much endorsing Biden.

Biden's mandate is lead by science, like Fauci. It's no surprise they coincide and it's not a political thing.

There most definitely is a right way to manage and contain this pandemic and it's science lead, and trump's policy has been the complete and utter antithesis of this

abff

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If you stop the ordinary people getting it that should avoid any overwhelming of the health care system. Isn't that the plan these days. It wasn't the plan from Fauci, his plan was protect the health care workers while allowing mass spreading in the community.
It's down to credibility, he lied, maybe for the right reasons but possibly not, he may be still telling fibbs to suit Biden, he can't be trusted.

That's a complete misrepresentation of what happened.

Initially, when PPE was very limited, it made sense to focus firstly on ensuring that health care workers were protected, as without them, the ability to deal with patients would be severely compromised.

pixelburp

Again with the Schrödinger's President: the buck stops with Trump, except when it doesn't and its really all Faucis fault, apparently. All the lies, dissembling, politicisation of masks (FFS) and "joking" advice about bleach. No, that's not the sin. It's cos Faucis motives aren't obsequious enough relative to the administration, and administration that has refused to take the threat seriously.

kowloon

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If you stop the ordinary people getting it that should avoid any overwhelming of the health care system. Isn't that the plan these days. It wasn't the plan from Fauci, his plan was protect the health care workers while allowing mass spreading in the community.
It's down to credibility, he lied, maybe for the right reasons but possibly not, he may be still telling fibbs to suit Biden, he can't be trusted.

Ideally, you could stop it dead, and maybe that would be possible in Ireland or another island nation with easily controllable borders like New Zealand, but it's not going to be a runner in the USA.
They have a huge landmass with either no border control as between the states or leaky borders to the North and South.
That's not taking into account things like rallies, protesting and crowding together to vote, all of which will accelerate the spread.
With the WH saying things like Trump has stopped the coronavirus and Trump himself lying about it to a breathtaking degree I'm not sure Fauci can be painted as the villain here.
The US will hit a quarter of a million deaths before all the votes are counted and that's with the WH trying to manipulate the figures.

Brussels Sprout

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Fauci has bent science for political point scoring against Trump in favour of Biden. The science hasn't changed much since the start of all this but the politics has.
Definitely not a criminal of any sort but his interpretation of scientific fact is questionable if it can so easily change.
Atlas was a breath of fresh air and at least he disclosed the sources for his opinion.

The most risible part of this whole statement (which to be honest reads like a massive wind-up) is that Scott Atlas is a breath of fresh air.

The man is a partisan hack, who is objectively unqualified for the position he's in (he's a radiologist not an epidemiologist - he may as well be a plumber give how far apart those disciplines are on the medical spectrum). He was clearly hand-picked as someone who would happily parrot Trumps anti-science, anti-mask, pro-quack cures line of thinking and not disagree and get in the way with any pesky concerns like public health in the way that Fauci did.

Detritus70

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Fauci has bent science for political point scoring against Trump in favour of Biden. The science hasn't changed much since the start of all this but the politics has.
Definitely not a criminal of any sort but his interpretation of scientific fact is questionable if it can so easily change.
Atlas was a breath of fresh air and at least he disclosed the sources for his opinion.

This comment is disgusting and disingenuous.

Overheal

drunkmonkey wrote: »

He didn't need to lie. I don't believe he lied as I think the science we know is sound, I think it's a politically motivated change of tac but my own conspiracy theory aside, he lied if you believe him to be honest.

What did I just read? This is a coat hanger trying to play the part of a straight rod.

The Raging Bile Duct

drunkmonkey wrote: »

He didn't need to lie. I don't believe he lied as I think the science we know is sound, I think it's a politically motivated change of tac but my own conspiracy theory aside, he lied if you believe him to be honest.

Can anyone make sense of this?

Itssoeasy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

He didn't change it on the evidence, there is no new evidence. There's a lot of honesty missing from the conversation not just in the states but everywhere.
We know Atlas's evidence, we don't know Fauci's, we certainly don't know NPHETS's.
Anyway could go around in circles all day as everyone is cherry picking their own science

What did he change it on then ? Yes there is new evidence about this virus because it’s a new virus we are constantly learning new things so on that point you are wrong. You say lot of honesty missing but let’s be honest it’s not a lack of honesty that’s missing it’s trying to shoehorn a narrative to the public that makes Donald trump not look bad which is a challenge at the best of times.

Dr Scott atlas’s area of expertise is a radiography and I’m sure he’s very qualified in that field but to my knowledge he’s not qualified to talk about a virus. So his evidence isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Yes we do know dr faucis evidence. Just because it doesn’t fit your view on the virus doesn’t make it invalid. NPHET ?

No you are cherry picking your own evidence and taking the word of someone who isn’t an expert in the field we need them to be.

beggars_bush

kowloon wrote: »

Ideally, you could stop it dead, and maybe that would be possible in Ireland or another island nation with easily controllable borders like New Zealand, but it's not going to be a runner in the USA.
They have a huge landmass with either no border control as between the states or leaky borders to the North and South.
That's not taking into account things like rallies, protesting and crowding together to vote, all of which will accelerate the spread.
With the WH saying things like Trump has stopped the coronavirus and Trump himself lying about it to a breathtaking degree I'm not sure Fauci can be painted as the villain here.
The US will hit a quarter of a million deaths before all the votes are counted and that's with the WH trying to manipulate the figures.

The Canada/US border is fairly secure

drunkmonkey

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Dr Scott atlas’s area of expertise is a radiography and I’m sure he’s very qualified in that field but to my knowledge he’s not qualified to talk about a virus. So his evidence isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Yes we do know dr faucis evidence.

You didn't listen to what Atlas said, he referenced scientific evidence he knew to be correct, not once did he suggest it was his own.
You say we all know Faucis evidence, no we don't, where is it.

Water John

beggars_bush wrote: »

The Canada/US border is fairly secure

And the Canadians are very pleased at that. If the US performed as good as Canada on Covid they would have had 90,000 deaths instead of 230,000.

kowloon

beggars_bush wrote: »

The Canada/US border is fairly secure

Canadians and Americans mix on the border and in border communities. They might not be passing through the border to settle in the other nation but the virus doesn't care about residency.

Itssoeasy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You didn't listen to what Atlas said, he referenced scientific evidence he knew to be correct, not once did he suggest it was his own.
You say we all know Faucis evidence, no we don't, where is it.

Yes I have listened to him on his appearance he had on tv over the herd immunity rubbish. Well you clearly heard different because he never made a distinction between his evidence and others and herd immunity isn’t known to be correct.

Yes, as a member of the White House task force and his work with the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases. That’s what his strategy on controlling this virus is based on and if Donald trump has listened to him and others then the United States may not be in the coronavirus **** show it’s in now.

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/director

https://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/HHS%20testimony%20COVID%20Senate%20HELP%209%2023%2020204.pdf

There’s two links one of which is his page on the NIAID which is very impressive if you could look at it impartially which from the interactions I’ve had with you today may be a tough ask, so that might be a start and the second link is his senate testimony from September 23rd of this year.

drunkmonkey

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Yes I have listened to him on his appearance he had on tv over the herd immunity rubbish. Well you clearly heard different because he never made a distinction between his evidence and others and herd immunity isn’t known to be correct.

Yes, as a member of the White House task force and his work with the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases. That’s what his strategy on controlling this virus is based on and if Donald trump has listened to him and others then the United States may not be in the coronavirus **** show it’s in now.

I wasn't referring to herd immunity, I read some of what you posted and some from Fauci's website you linked to, there's a lot of assumptions not backed up with any proper studies. I'm not going to drill through 44 pages if you have a specific point in the document you want to reference make it available.

Just listening to some of the figures there from the states, things aren't as bad as you think, 85% drop in ER admissions, a lot better outcomes for patients, that's all good news.
There's very few places we can look at and say they did a great job.

VinLieger

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There's very few places we can look at and say they did a great job.

New Zealand and South Korea, masks, social distancing and testing, testing, testing

Tell me how

VinLieger wrote: »

New Zealand and South Korea, masks, social distancing and testing, testing, testing

Germany

duploelabs

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I wasn't referring to herd immunity, I read some of what you posted and some from Fauci's website you linked to, there's a lot of assumptions not backed up with any proper studies. I'm not going to drill through 44 pages if you have a specific point in the document you want to reference make it available.

Just listening to some of the figures there from the states, things aren't as bad as you think, 85% drop in ER admissions, a lot better outcomes for patients, that's all good news.
There's very few places we can look at and say they did a great job.

Because no-one is going to ER due to fear of catching covid

Itssoeasy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I wasn't referring to herd immunity, I read some of what you posted and some from Fauci's website you linked to, there's a lot of assumptions not backed up with any proper studies. I'm not going to drill through 44 pages if you have a specific point in the document you want to reference make it available.

Just listening to some of the figures there from the states, things aren't as bad as you think, 85% drop in ER admissions, a lot better outcomes for patients, that's all good news.
There's very few places we can look at and say they did a great job.

So what’s the point in us having a discussion then ? I’ve tried to engage in a genuine debate but again you clearly have an issue with doctor fauci and so you cast doubt on his work on coronavirus without offering reasons why but apparently a radiographer is bullet proof and has found the magic bullet.

Nearing 100,000 cases a day is good ?

And there’s the trump playbook of instead of trying to fix something you use “everyone else is the same.” Very few countries got it right BUT Europe as a whole flattened the curve and yes there is a second wave but at least Europe got it low enough where there is are two distinct peaks, unlike the US whose numbers look like profile view of a rollercoaster.

Anyone else want to step into the batters box because I’m done. I’ve no doubt you’ll keep positing here drunkmonkey and hopefully it’s constructive but on this topic I’m done.

drunkmonkey

VinLieger wrote: »

New Zealand and South Korea, masks, social distancing and testing, testing, testing

I wouldn't agree with you on South Korea there on the brink of it exploding, restrictions and mandates are increasing.
New Zealand yea i'd like to move there.

VinLieger

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with you on South Korea there on the brink of it exploding, restrictions and mandates are increasing.
New Zealand yea i'd like to move there.

South Korea have a population of 51 million, 26732 cases and 468 deaths....... what are you on about?

Their deaths per 1 million is 9, the US is 713.....

And even if they "explode" as you claim and go into another lockdown they objectively are still a 1000 miles ahead of the US.

The fact you think New Zealand are doing well while SK are not is fvcking absurd, their stats per million are virtually identical, NZ have 5 deaths per 1 million

drunkmonkey

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So what’s the point in us having a discussion then ? I’ve tried to engage in a genuine debate but again you clearly have an issue with doctor fauci and so you cast doubt on his work on coronavirus without offering reasons why but apparently a radiographer is bullet proof and has found the magic bullet.

Step back a bit there, presenting 44 pages and going there you go case closed isn't in any way a debate. If someone lies in public you have to question them from there on in regardless of which side you may be on. Fauci lied, that's enough for me to question him. I make no apology for it.

Do I think he should be ignored, not in the slightest but every word he said should not be taken as gospel.

You keep referencing Atlas the radiographer, I never said he found a magic bullet, all I said was listen to what he said as he gives the scientific sources for his opinion.

Brussels Sprout

VinLieger wrote: »

New Zealand and South Korea, masks, social distancing and testing, testing, testing

++ Thailand, Vietnam, China, Australia, Taiwan, Norway, Finland, Greece


A mix there of developed & developing countries, Asian and Western, authoritarian and liberal democracies

Midlife

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with you on South Korea there on the brink of it exploding, restrictions and mandates are increasing.
New Zealand yea i'd like to move there.

No understanding.

SK numbers go up and SK do the correct thing

What is that? Aggressive testing, track and trace.

Because of this, they've never gone into full lockdown. Do you understand that?

They'v ekept the number among the lowest in the world without lockdown.

check_six

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

++ Thailand, Vietnam, China, Australia, Taiwan, Norway, Finland, Greece


A mix there of developed & developing countries, Asian and Western, authoritarian and liberal democracies

All the US had going for it was being the wealthiest country on earth with a well funded disease control agency and a delayed outbreak where they could see the responses of all the other countries ahead of their own challenge. No wonder they have been struggling so badly.

Foxtrol

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

++ Thailand, Vietnam, China, Australia, Taiwan, Norway, Finland, Greece


A mix there of developed & developing countries, Asian and Western, authoritarian and liberal democracies

You don't even need to go outside of the US to see how things could be so much better elsewhere by simply learning from mistakes and following guidance. Many of the blue cities and states after being hit hard initially have performed relatively well since, getting it under control and keeping it that way.

Tell me how

Foxtrol wrote: »

You don't even need to go outside of the US to see how things could be so much better elsewhere by simply learning from mistakes and following guidance. Many of the blue cities and states after being hit hard initially have performed relatively well since, getting it under control and keeping it that way.

True.

In Massachusetts we have been wearing masks everywhere in public since late April and they are mandatory in all businesses. There are signs on all highways advising people to get tested if they feel unwell and for visitors to quarantine.

All businesses which were able to consider it shifted to moving from home and limitations around venue capacity and behaviour has been in place all summer.

My gym, a YMCA shut for several months but has opened and launched an online portal to book times for swimming so people could literally walk in to a scheduled slot in a lane dedicated to them and then shower in an isolated cubicle and then leave.

I was in a store one day and a guy came in without a mask and the assistant told him he needed it and he left and came back in with one and said 'I know you gotta do it, but wait until Trump wins and all this disappears. I'm from Ohio and we are doing none of this there'.

Midlife

There was a really good doc on last night on BBC2 which laid bare the US response to the virus.

Really scary stuff.

The two biggest mistakes were downplaying it early on and not getting testing up and running.

This is the opposite of what SK did and is why the first wave in the US was worse.

If Trump had done the smart thing, he'd be cruising to reelection.

The doc laid bare how the admin always seek to turn to private industry. Some really interesting stuff in there from this point of view.

drunkmonkey

Midlife wrote: »

No understanding.

SK numbers go up and SK do the correct thing

What is that? Aggressive testing, track and trace.

Because of this, they've never gone into full lockdown. Do you understand that?

They'v ekept the number among the lowest in the world without lockdown.

SK are I won't say on the verge of a lockdown but they have cases in the wild and are brining in more penalties and mandates. They also have a 5 level plan launched, we all know how that goes.

Tell me how

Midlife wrote: »

There was a really good doc on last night on BBC2 which laid bare the US response to the virus.

Really scary stuff.

The two biggest mistakes were downplaying it early on and not getting testing up and running.

This is the opposite of what SK did and is why the first wave in the US was worse.

If Trump had done the smart thing, he'd be cruising to reelection.

The doc laid bare how the admin always seek to turn to private industry. Some really interesting stuff in there from this point of view.

Would be absolutely waltzing home with the additional fact that change in a time of crisis is rarely the preferred option.

This and his aggressive, pro-violence response to BLM protests is why he is where he is in the polls. If he loses, he'll scream about the media and so on but him losing would be his mess and his alone.