Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Tell me how

FrostyJack wrote: »

The main reason I would put him in the worst president category is, bar the covid crisis of this year, there hasn't been any major events, like World War or financial crisis but still manage to turn it into a *hit show. Like with his inheritance, if he just left it alone and did nothing, he would be better off. At every turn he just made it worse. Say for example he didn't use Twitter, how much better off he and his presidency would have been.

He could have sat on his ass and waltz home if he had any bit of cop on.

• Let the scientists lead the way and only give weekly commentary on Covid and limit that to thanking them and imploring people to isolate. Limit political campaigning because of Covid and tell his crew to use mail in from day one.
• Appoint a group of Black community representatives and the likes of Kanye to investigate why there were still issues with policing but say that it would take them 12 months to assess correctly and so he'd need a second term to act on their findings.
• Allow someone to vet his tweets before they went public. This would have removed the covefe's, the typos, the ALL CAPS, the 'fake news' type of tweets which mostly led to hi being ridiculed.

The incumbent always has the advantage, particularly in a time of strife because any change is considered risky. These facts, along with the above, would have easily got him over the line.

Thankfully for us, he was too narcissistic to appear like he was listening to the advice of others. He died on the rock of his own stupidity.

If he had won, his legacy would have been 'Undefeated 2 term President' he knows this and that most bother him every day.

A small consolation I have is that for every bit as selfish, incompetent, weak, prejudiced, susceptible to being manipulated as he turned out to be, I said it 4 years ago that that was who and what he was. He has left a fake tan like stain on the office of the United States for how he did what he did. No longer can they claim righteous honour associated with the holders of that office irrespective of whether or not they ever had a right to.

amandstu

Tell me how wrote: »

[/B]
He could have sat on his ass and waltz home if he had any bit of cop on.

• Let the scientists lead the way and only give weekly commentary on Covid and limit that to thanking them and imploring people to isolate. Limit political campaigning because of Covid and tell his crew to use mail in from day one.
• Appoint a group of Black community representatives and the likes of Kanye to investigate why there were still issues with policing but say that it would take them 12 months to assess correctly and so he'd need a second term to act on their findings.
• Allow someone to vet his tweets before they went public. This would have removed the covefe's, the typos, the ALL CAPS, the 'fake news' type of tweets which mostly led to hi being ridiculed.

The incumbent always has the advantage, particularly in a time of strife because any change is considered risky. These facts, along with the above, would have easily got him over the line.

Thankfully for us, he was too narcissistic to appear like he was listening to the advice of others. He died on the rock of his own stupidity.

If he had won, his legacy would have been 'Undefeated 2 term President' he knows this and that most bother him every day.

A small consolation I have is that for every bit as selfish, incompetent, weak, prejudiced, susceptible to being manipulated as he turned out to be, I said it 4 years ago that that was who and what he was. He has left a fake tan like stain on the office of the United States for how he did what he did. No longer can they claim righteous honour associated with the holders of that office irrespective of whether or not they ever had a right to.

I don't disagree but how close did he come to having his cake and eating it?**

If he had done the sensible things you suggest he would have forfeited the blind allegiance of his followers.

Tonight ,in Nashville we may be witnessing the actions of some of those followers who are acting out his "the press are the enemy of the people" verbiage as ATT is the parent company of CNN.

** sure he lost big(ish) but ,had it been a little closer he could have made a lot more of it.

Leroy42

amandstu wrote: »

I don't disagree but how close did he come to having his cake and eating it?**

If he had done the sensible things you suggest he would have forfeited the blind allegiance of his followers.

Tonight ,in Nashville we may be witnessing the actions of some of those followers who are acting out his "the press are the enemy of the people" verbiage as ATT is the parent company of CNN.

** sure he lost big(ish) but ,had it been a little closer he could have made a lot more of it.

His followers would have gone along with whatever he said. Examples being the mask wearing. He spent months saying it wasn't needed, they all agree. Then he publicly wears one, and they all agree that it proves how great a leader he is!

It a flaw, one of many, that he is so insecure that he feels the need to constantly be contrary to keep his supporters on side when in reality the majority would stick with him regardless.

If he had reduced the debt, rather than balloon it, they would have cheered. If he struck bi partisan deals rather than attacking everyone they would have cheered.

There really nothing he could have done that would have led to a loss of support. We see it on here, the knots posters tie themselves in in order to maintain their support for him.

Trump lost this election. He blames fraud, and now the GOP, because to face the reality of a 1 termer, running against such a poor candidate n Biden.

Trump ran as a smash the political elite candidate, and he just got beaten by a 47 year veteran on Washington!

Had he taken a step back, taken the leaders role of letting the experts do what needed to be done he would have walked the election.

Had he shown even a modicum of compassion and empathy. He was even given the perfect excuse by getting, and recovering from, covid. He could have taken the line that he was an advocate for the victims. He understood the pain of the families affected.

That this was bigger than party politics, bigger than petty squabbles. This was the fight of this generation and he was going to lead America through it. Through the unavoidable pain, suffering and loss, but together US would survive and show the world, and China, that nothing is bigger than the US.

Instead, he choose to make it all about himself, how things were really hard and unfair for him. And that while people are dying, is biggest worry is Jim Acosta!

Time will show that, inexplicably to many of us here, he was perfectly set for a 2nd term and managed to throw it away.

And that is why he is from fighting so hard on the fraud angle. He knows that losers rarely get a second shot, indeed most are either forgotten about or mocked in the future. As he has done me in terms of Romney for example.

So he needs to create the narrative that he isn't a loser to avoid that fate. He doesn't think he will still be POTUS on 21st Jan. Hence the pardons. He is trying to keep himself relevant and he has found plenty of people willing to buy into his latest con about fraud. Where he is definitely telling the truth and the evidence will be produced probably within the next 2 weeks. Just like the healthcare plan, the middle income tax cut etc.

Trump doesn't believe there was election fraud, any more than he did in 2016. But he needs others to not only believe it but actively fight on his behalf.

And he has found enough people willing to be used in that endeavour

aloyisious

hotmail.com wrote: »

Since when was the Supreme Court so important anyway.? It's just part of American myth.

Taking a sidestep from the main debate, the U.S.S.C is very important to and in the U.S. In a 5/4 decision in July, it ruled in favour of a Native American appealing a rape conviction. In a decision written by Neil Gorsuch, the court ALSO ruled that almost half of the state of Oklahoma was, for certain purposes, the property of the Native American tribes and that only federal prosecutors can bring charges against native Americans there-in. A kicker is that the tribes were forcibly evicted from their original tribal lands by the Federal Govt in the trail of tears period and moved to Oklahoma, giving the tribes rights to the Oklahoma land in lieu. There are also the civil rights rulings to blacks and women.

hotmail.com

aloyisious wrote: »

Taking a sidestep from the main debate, the U.S.S.C is very important to and in the U.S. In a 5/4 decision in July, it ruled in favour of a Native American appealing a rape conviction. In a decision written by Neil Gorsuch, the court ALSO ruled that almost half of the state of Oklahoma was, for certain purposes, the property of the Native American tribes and that only federal prosecutors can bring charges against native Americans there-in. A kicker is that the tribes were forcibly evicted from their original tribal lands by the Federal Govt in the trail of tears period and moved to Oklahoma, giving the tribes rights to the Oklahoma land in lieu. There are also the civil rights rulings to blacks and women.

The Supreme Court interprets the laws, legislators make the laws. Every country has a supreme court for that reason, but only in America do they think it's this transformative institution. This leads to the crazy hysteria in America when it comes to the appointment of judges. Non stories everywhere else, but Americans make a drama out of it.

aloyisious

hotmail.com wrote: »

The Supreme Court interprets the laws, legislators make the laws. Every country has a supreme court for that reason, but only in America do they think it's this transformative institution. This leads to the crazy hysteria in America when it comes to the appointment of judges. Non stories everywhere else, but Americans make a drama out of it.

The effective role the U.S.S.C plays in the U.S is in putting the laws passed by politicians into effect. Its when the politicians try to take over the role of the U.S.S.C and get their own way [as with Trump to the present day] that it is of import.

If it had the low level of import that you seem to believe it has in the U.S, why is it that Trump believes the opposite to you? Is he one of the hysterical people you have in mind?

paul71

aloyisious wrote: »

The effective role the U.S.S.C plays in the U.S is in putting the laws passed by politicians into effect. Its when the politicians try to take over the role of the U.S.S.C and get their own way [as with Trump to the present day] that it is of import.

If it had the low level of import that you seem to believe it has in the U.S, why is it that Trump believes the opposite to you? Is he one of the hysterical people you have in mind?

That is simply untrue, a legislature puts laws into effect. A judicial system simply determines the validity of of laws in terms of the rules which bind the legislature ie. a constitution, or interpret a specific case with regard to the law passed by the legislature. They have NO role in putting laws into effect, that is solely the role of the legislative branch.

aloyisious

paul71 wrote: »

That is simply untrue, a legislature puts laws into effect. A judicial system simply determines the validity of of laws in terms of the rules which bind the legislature ie. a constitution, or interpret a specific case with regard to the law passed by the legislature. They have NO role in putting laws into effect, that is solely the role of the legislative branch.

I disagree with you as ALL judges make judgements and ruling on the basis of laws PASSED by politicians. You seem to be conflating U.S.S.C judicial interpretation judgements of laws passed by politicians being in line with the constitution with judgements made by judges in criminal and civil cases brought to before them for judgement.

Its the judgements of judges that PUT INTO PRACTICE the laws passed by the politicians, hence Trump's desire to have his personally chosen judges on the bench. He's not restricting his personal choices and criticisms on judges to U.S.S.C justices.

amandstu

If some politicians succeed in stacking the courts to their partisan advantage can the electorate trump this process by voting for politicians who will enact new laws that the courts will be forced to follow ,no matter how they interpret them?

If the courts show ill will (which I doubt) then might be the time to increase the number of judges (or impeach any who exhibit bad faith in their role)

hotmail.com

hotmail.com wrote: »

The Supreme Court interprets the laws, legislators make the laws. Every country has a supreme court for that reason, but only in America do they think it's this transformative institution. This leads to the crazy hysteria in America when it comes to the appointment of judges. Non stories everywhere else, but Americans make a drama out of it.

That's a pretty simplified take on it since there's multiple ways the constitution can be interpreted and the court has become incredibly partisan. And it's even more problematic when you have entirely inexperienced appointees shoved in or ones with problematic histories.

Itssoeasy

I completely missed the incident in Nashville yesterday. Seems out of the blue in that the authorities don’t seem have few leads. Has Donald trump said anything about it ? He’s tweeted about anything and everything else.

aloyisious

amandstu wrote: »

If some politicians succeed in stacking the courts to their partisan advantage can the electorate trump this process by voting for politicians who will enact new laws that the courts will be forced to follow ,no matter how they interpret them?

If the courts show ill will (which I doubt) then might be the time to increase the number of judges (or impeach any who exhibit bad faith in their role)

I don't think your last above will happen. Re the present members of the U.S.S.C [including the last member to join the bench] it's worth noting that it, by majority decisions, rejected hearing several of the cases and applications brought to it by Trump's legal team and told them to take the cases back to the lower courts for hearings first. That basically ruined Trumps rejigged run at re-election.

The health of the current U.S.S.C members also helped to finish his chances off, explaining the nutjob notion from a convicted felon and a default member of his legal team that Martial Law should be declared to get him back in for another term with troops on the streets, a Putsch, which his official White House Admin & Govt teams both rejected.

BonnieSituation

hotmail.com wrote: »

History is about having the benefit of hindsight. That's the point. Historians don't make judgements until long after the person has left office when the hysteria has died down. They examine the policy effects and impact on the country. Most of the Trump madness will be forgotten. Remember the impeachment soap opera.. forgotten.

At the moment, it's impossible to say he's the worst president ever.

It's not. He's clearly the worst by almost all available metrics. I'm still so shocked that you're this interested in American politics.

And no doubt you'll be very quick to criticise Biden for not being purer than the driven snow as soon as his hand is on the Bible come Jan 20th.

Rjd2

hotmail.com wrote: »

Surely Johnson and Nixon are worse in the last 50 years. The millions killed in Vietnam and Combodia surely outweigh any of the stuff Trump did. Not to mention all the dead Iraqis caused by George Bush.

Bush when you look at how he lit the middle east on fire with his invasions of Middle East along with his regressive economic policies paved the way for Trump.

I think though we can agree nobody really cares about the Iraq war sadly, Biden supported it and ran up a huge win while numerous Bush hangers on have got prominent roles in media where "liberals" cheer them on. Davd Frum, Bill Kristol etc all good people now because they say mean things about Trump.

Trump has been awful, but he losing has probably salvaged him somewhat compared to the incredibly evil Bush.

However Bush had more charisma, has more of his people in prominent positions at MSNBC who can easily sway their audiences are for for the most part live in echo chambers and have never had an original political thought.

Rjd2

Reagan up their as well, loved his imperialism, "handling" of the aids crisis and his obsession with "free markets" which caused so much damage to nations who adopted those policies.

beggars_bush

I hope Americans will remember who blocked the covid aid package

Cody montana

1 in 1000 Americans have died from Covid-19.

Trump seems to have given up stopping it.

Timberrrrrrrr

Cody montana wrote: »

1 in 1000 Americans have died from Covid-19.

Trump seems to have given up stopping it.

But he never even tried to stop it, every single speech he gave and still gives is all about him. A bomb went off on Christmas day, has Trump even said a word about it yet?

Covid for Trump was an annoyance because people were talking more about that than him.

beggars_bush

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

But he never even tried to stop it, every single speech he gave and still gives is all about him. A bomb went off on Christmas day, has Trump even said a word about it yet?

Covid for Trump was an annoyance because people were talking more about that than him.

Still.blaming China

aloyisious

Fox News has him accusing Mitch and other republicans of failing to fight on his behalf regarding the outcome of the 2020 presidential election – which Trump continues to argue was "Rigged & Stolen." "If a Democrat Presidential Candidate had an Election Rigged & Stolen, with proof of such acts at a level never seen before, the Democrat Senators would consider it an act of war, and fight to the death," Trump wrote on Twitter. "Mitch & the Republicans do NOTHING, just want to let it pass. NO FIGHT!"

PropJoe10

aloyisious wrote: »

Fox News has him accusing Mitch and other republicans of failing to fight on his behalf regarding the outcome of the 2020 presidential election – which Trump continues to argue was "Rigged & Stolen." "If a Democrat Presidential Candidate had an Election Rigged & Stolen, with proof of such acts at a level never seen before, the Democrat Senators would consider it an act of war, and fight to the death," Trump wrote on Twitter. "Mitch & the Republicans do NOTHING, just want to let it pass. NO FIGHT!"

Weird how his legal team hasn't been able to provide this "proof of such acts at a level never seen before" to a court of law, isn't it. He is unreal. A serious danger to the fabric of society around the world.

StringerBell

Its incredibly amusing in some ways alright, this "absolute proof" that for some reason they don't ever bother to produce in court

StringerBell

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's not. He's clearly the worst by almost all available metrics. I'm still so shocked that you're this interested in American politics.

And no doubt you'll be very quick to criticise Biden for not being purer than the driven snow as soon as his hand is on the Bible come Jan 20th.

This has already begun, sure don't you know that Biden should be making a pledge to do away with pardons when he gets in? That he is already just as bad as the other fella for not publicly coming out and saying he will not only not use the pardon power bestowed upon the office, but that he will not just remove it from the Constitution himself (just forget that he doesn't have the power to do that one)

PropJoe10

StringerBell wrote: »

Its incredibly amusing in some ways alright, this "absolute proof" that for some reason they don't ever bother to produce in court

Well, it plays perfectly to his base. He is somehow able to cry foul in every possible situation and his base laps it up.

"I love the poorly educated" - Donald J Trump, 2015

Tell me how

When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

https://twitter.com/RussOnPolitics/status/1343219181328719873

Headshot

This made me laugh on that Washington Post link

"At 12:59 p.m., Mnuchin tweeted a congratulatory message to congressional leaders, thanking them for their vote to approve “additional critical economic relief for American workers, families and businesses.”

“I want to thank President Trump for his leadership,” Mnuchin wrote in a news release accompanying the tweet.

Six hours later, Trump posted a tweet of his own, calling the bill a “disgrace” and demanding sweeping changes. He made no mention of Mnuchin, and aides say the two have barely spoken since. It remains unclear if Trump will sign the bill or veto it."

What I would of done to see Mnuchin face when he saw the tweet

Leroy42

StringerBell wrote: »

Its incredibly amusing in some ways alright, this "absolute proof" that for some reason they don't ever bother to produce in court

Its not even about court at this stage.

How many press conferences and tweets is it now and they have nothing but 'jeez, it looks odd' or Trumps latest 'its impossible '

At what stage are people going to take the view that maybe, just maybe, the man known as a liar is perhaps not being honest.

aloyisious

On the basis that people remember you more for your bad deeds than your good deeds, if Trump doesn't sign the bills benefitting the Republican and Democrat voters who are jobless and without support and liable to lose their homes, and those likely [if currently federally employed] to lose their employment, they may be top of the bad memory list subscribers. Some of his own base will be suffering at the moment with more joining the pack if he keeps refusing to sign the bills. It's not as if his not signing the bills is going to get him more enthusiasts from the Senate or House GOP members.

Cody montana

Cody montana wrote: »

1 in 1000 Americans have died from Covid-19.

Trump seems to have given up stopping it.

Sure that's old news lad.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/17/trump-coronavirus-response-checked-out-say-experts

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/10/25/trump-white-house-surrenders-covid-19/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55298015

Windmill100000

StringerBell wrote: »

Its incredibly amusing in some ways alright, this "absolute proof" that for some reason they don't ever bother to produce in court

They provided it. And she was drunk, remember?