Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

aloyisious

Manic Moran wrote: »

There are a few articles coming out now with regards to the timeline of who asked for what, when, and who kept stalling. Plenty of blame to go around. The reality, though, is that the Guard is not an immediate response force, we aim for four hours from the call-out to '80% of folks ready to go', not counting transit time to wherever it is we're going. Even had the Maryland Governor received immediate approval, it wouldn't have made any significant difference in the Capitol.

With respect to the Guard, the primary errors made were those made in the days before the event, with DC only requesting 300 personnel and Capitol Police refusing to request any at all. The reports indicate that USCP declined any inquiries for support ahead of time from both the DoD and FBI.

Maryland's Gov was asked yesterday about the N/G delay on CNN, said he phoned the Dept of Defence [pentagon] several times as required in moving his state's N/G pers to the Capitol after he had got several calls from that location asking for assistance, that while waiting for a reply from DOD for an hour he sent state police personnel to assist CPD, that being the legal limitations he had to work under.

As you wrote, anyone who thinks the N/G are ready to roll at an instant like regular units doesn't know the N/G are not in Bks, they're at home or work like anyone else in a reserve force [like a volunteer fire brigade] with all their gear safely locked away in armouries, Bks etc.

aloyisious

It seems that Corporate America is now turning its back on Trump [and maybe even the GOP] by cutting off funding to him and it. This is outside the actions taken so far by private industry breaking ties with Trump. It remains to be seen how far the industries will go in slashing ties and funding to the senators and congresspersons who are in denial of Trumps direct involvement in the insurrection.

StringerBell

aloyisious wrote: »

Maryland's Gov was asked yesterday about the N/G delay on CNN, said he phoned the Dept of Defence [pentagon] several times as required in moving his state's N/G pers to the Capitol after he had got several calls from that location asking for assistance, that while waiting for a reply from DOD for an hour he sent state police personnel to assist CPD, that being the legal limitations he had to work under.

As you wrote, anyone who thinks the N/G are ready to roll at an instant like regular units doesn't know the N/G are not in Bks, they're at home or work like anyone else in a reserve force [like a volunteer fire brigade] with all their gear safely locked away in armouries, Bks etc.

Did someone not say the national guard had been called up and approved the day before or so and were simply being staged somewhere else?

Tell me how

aloyisious wrote: »

It seems that Corporate America is now turning its back on Trump [and maybe even the GOP] by cutting off funding to him and it. This is outside the actions taken so far by private industry breaking ties with Trump. It remains to be seen how far the industries will go in slashing ties and funding to the senators and congresspersons who are in denial of Trumps direct involvement in the insurrection.

Think this could be a snowball that Trump will not be able to contain.

Aside from corporate America's view on him at this point (toxic I expect), I think pending cases in to his personal and business activities which have largely been on hold for the last 4 years will be approached with renewed vigour in the coming months and likely will result in more negative news for Brand Trump.

It's an impossible situation for corporations associated with him if the public start asking 'Why are you giving money to an insurrectionist'.
If this does happen, I expect we could see significant changes within the Trump business as it seeks to mitigate damage and hold on to what it has. But, as long as he is around, you can't imagine he would give up the reigns or his name being above the door easily.

Bet his kids are very concerned as to how much damage he will do yet.

Water John

Headshot wrote: »

I think the Golf boycott will hurt Trump alot

Trump as the keen golfer himself, that must be a real painful one

For his well documented cheating at this Gentlemans game, he should be disbarred from owning a golf course or playing the game.
It is interesting that it's business and civic society that is holding him to account.

Hurrache

Hallmark cards have even asked for a recent donation to members of GOP back, Hawley being one of them.

Water John

Hurrache wrote: »

Hallmark cards have even asked for a recent donation to members of GOP back, Hawley being one of them.

I'll be checking in future who is the maker of any card I buy, if that's where some of their profits go.

Hurrache

They donate across the political spectrum in fairness using their in-house political wing, and not large amounts by the looks of it, $3k in this case I think.

Edit, this is a good thread of all companies withdrawing funding and donations when I went looking for who they donate to.

https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1348689251223949322?s=19

BluePlanet

Manic Moran wrote: »

With respect to the Guard, the primary errors made were those made in the days before the event, with DC only requesting 300 personnel and Capitol Police refusing to request any at all. The reports indicate that USCP declined any inquiries for support ahead of time from both the DoD and FBI.

Yeah well i read that the Capitol Police requested that the National Guard be on standby in the days before the march.
But the request was denied due to the 'bad optics'.

No such problems when BLM was marching however.

aloyisious

StringerBell wrote: »

Did someone not say the national guard had been called up and approved the day before or so and were simply being staged somewhere else?

My understanding of that [from her account] was that DC's Mayor Muriel Bowser had requested the assistance of the N/G from the Pentagon the day before the insurrection attempt at the Capitol building and she was under the impression that the Pentagon had given the Ok for the N/G to be activated from that day, the day of her request. It seems there was a delay in the process after she was given the impression from the Pentagon that the N/G had been activated the day of her request.

I had a look at the DOD/Pentagon legal routine in cases of a request for N/G activation. The Sec Defence was in charge at DOD, BUT at some time in the past, the activation task had been passed down the chain to Sec Army for N/G ground forces. It seems DOD/Pentagon legal protocol was the cause for the delay, the question now is was this hiccup deliberately used to hinder a response to the insurrection or by phonecall errors. I don't know where the forming-up staging bks were or how close by highway to the Capitol buildings DC area. I assume the units also had their own road transport means, and not reliant on Logs Bns for transport to move ground troops to DC.

I wouldn't see it as speculation that there is a file in both the Pentagon and the State N/G HQ with plans laid out in fine details for the eventuality of the N/G to assist the civil power in large scale civil disorder in the DC area, and for the N/G Ops & Plans Officer to be fully briefed on whet to do without relying on the file at every response stage.

Water John

BluePlanet wrote: »

Yeah well i read that the Capitol Police requested that the National Guard be on standby in the days before the march.
But the request was denied due to the 'bad optics'.

No such problems when BLM was marching however.

This Guardian article gives some detail:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/11/head-capitol-police-steven-sund-mob-assault-recounts-security-failings

JJayoo

BluePlanet wrote: »

Yeah well i read that the Capitol Police requested that the National Guard be on standby in the days before the march.
But the request was denied due to the 'bad optics'.

No such problems when BLM was marching however.

In fairness with the BLM protests every night when the older generation and kids went home there was serious looting and buildings burnt and this went on for weeks.

Before the incident in capitol hill the Trump protestors had no violence and the events always ended before nightfall. The makeup or the protestors was also very different being a lot of older men and women.

There was no reason to have a big security presence out. Now if they organise another protest in same area you are gonna see a lot of security

looksee

Where morality and ethical considerations fail, the corporations' withdrawal of funds might actually have an effect.

The more you see media companies and PAC donors and the golf crowd withdrawing support from Trump (even though some of this needs discussion from other angles) the more the politicians look like a crowd of grafting, ill-organised, generally unpleasant people.

jill_valentine

Before the incident in capitol hill the Trump protestors had no violence and the events always ended before nightfall.

This is so blatantly untrue I'm not sure which dozen examples to use, so I'll just point out that i) the motto Proud Boys live by is "Violence solves everything", and Trump told them to "stand by" before their leader was invited for a tour of the building, ii) it was Boogaloo boys who fired on cops and burned down a police station during the BLM protests, and iii) The attack on the Capitol comes in the wake of the foiled plot to kidnap and murder the Governor of Michigan, and mirrors the alternate plan made by that cell to seize their local statehouse and transmit themselves executing the politicians inside over the course of days.

There was no reason to have a big security presence out.

The Women's March, which never had a chance in hell of turning violent, was more strictly policed and restricted about what they could carry than this collection of openly violent factions which was known to include the Oathkeepers, Proud Boys and 3%ers, all groups which openly advocate violence against government agents and brag about their methods for concealing weapons as flagstaffs. The plans were made for this so openly that Capitol police officers had friends get in touch to warn them what they were seeing on social media, even though their bosses were telling them there was no risk.

There was every reason to expect violence at this and yet fewer precautions were made for it than for a climate protest.

ongarite

Has Trump resigned?
Department of State has message up in their site saying his term ended today at 19:48...

https://www.state.gov/biographies/donald-j-trump/

Water John

Its not that time in the US yet?

Lithium93_

Water John wrote: »

Its not that time in the US yet?

COULD be GMT time perhaps?

jill_valentine

ongarite wrote: »

Has Trump resigned?
Department of State has message up in their site saying his term ended today at 19:48...

https://www.state.gov/biographies/donald-j-trump/

As beautiful a dream this was for a moment, I have to assume it's a hack.

Lithium93_

ongarite wrote: »

Has Trump resigned?
Department of State has message up in their site saying his term ended today at 19:48...

https://www.state.gov/biographies/donald-j-trump/

Same has been done for Pence as well.

Ludo

ongarite wrote: »

Has Trump resigned?
Department of State has message up in their site saying his term ended today at 19:48...

https://www.state.gov/biographies/donald-j-trump/

Funny...but tis a glitch or a hack. It changes on a reload.

aloyisious

Way too much blank space on the page for reality.

Hurrache

JJayoo wrote: »

In fairness with the BLM protests every night when the older generation and kids went home there was serious looting and buildings burnt and this went on for weeks.
...

There was no reason to have a big security presence out

From what I can remember was that the only person at one stage arrested and charged with arson of a state building was a right wing extremist, as too was the masked guy followed around and filmed smashing up loads of store windows with a hammer.

You're also ignoring the mountains of chatter, talk and predictions that there would be trouble in the weeks leading up to it.

There was more security and barricades up for a march of disabled people protesting the end of Obama care FFS.


But hey, right wing white folk don't cause trouble.

FatherTed

pixelburp wrote: »

If that's aimed at my post, I explicitly say that Hate Speech should be actioned, I thought I made that very clear. Parler should have been junked for facilitating Hate Speech and bigotry. Donald Trump should have been banned months ago but the political fallout made Twitter etc. chicken out. Online speech should be treated as speech from the physical self.

What I'm spitballing I'll say again: is that that Freedom of Expression as a legal defence against claims of "censorship" is effectively lagging behind the reality that those freedoms now often sit in the lap of corporate interests - which becomes equally murky when one of the most popular social media platforms is Chinese owned (and apparently itself censoring state criticism). It's hardly "shouting" to at least have a conversation about where the law goes to make sure that tech companies can't dictate the nature of "reasonble" discussion (which, as if I should even need to say it, the DC insurrectionists cannot claim to be). Twitter saw the political and monetary reality in skirting any bans for Trump, long after he arguably deserved it.

Our ability to make ideological expressions are now in the hands of the tech industry - and as has been seen, rather than some kind of liberal bias, there's evidence the bias swings towards a conservative one.

But social media and forums etc is not free speech e.g. we have strict rules in here the Politics forum and we'll get red carded if we continue to violate those rules. Its the same with Trump and twitter/etc. Don't like it? Get out and find a place that will tolerate your crap.

BluePlanet

JJayoo wrote: »

In fairness with the BLM protests every night when the older generation and kids went home there was serious looting and buildings burnt and this went on for weeks.

Before the incident in capitol hill the Trump protestors had no violence and the events always ended before nightfall. The makeup or the protestors was also very different being a lot of older men and women.

There was no reason to have a big security presence out. Now if they organise another protest in same area you are gonna see a lot of security

Threats of violence from this crowd on Parler and Twitter before the march are well documented.
The FBI visited some of the more well known ones in the preceding days and warned them to not travel to DC.

The excuse "no one saw this coming" is just another lie

RobAMerc

I had come to the happy conclusion that Trumps antics was a good thing for American politics - There could be a new dawn where people realise that the system of 2 parties with FPTP was broken and riddled with corruption ( I hate Trump, but some of his rhetoric hits home because there is a certain level of truth in it, we only know what certain folk want us to know or at least we are told things from someone perspective and its not always objective ).

Sadly though, I think the fact that the insurrection was quashed, and now Trump is being removed from any outlet, with talk of impeachment and blocking by big business might somehow convince a lot of ordinary Americans that democracy in America is truly great and working well. And we'll all rinse and repeat !

Jack1985

Marine Two hovering around the VP Residency for quite a substantial time that it is being reported on;

https://twitter.com/BeschlossDC/status/1348723955096580097?s=20

Kermit.de.frog

Does anyone know is Trump carrying out any of his functions as president now?

I have seen nothing to suggest he is.

Carfacemandog

JJayoo wrote: »

Before the incident in capitol hill the Trump protestors had no violence and the events always ended before nightfall.

Genuine question: who told you that?

Proud Boys leader arrested for violence and vandalizing church property, in DC no less, the day before the Jan 6th terror attack: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/proud-boys-enrique-tarrio-arrest/2021/01/04/8642a76a-4edf-11eb-b96e-0e54447b23a1_story.html

And just three days before that trunp supporters and antifa again got in a violent clash that saw 4 stabbed and 1 shot - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/12/us/4-stabbed-and-one-shot-as-trump-supporters-and-opponents-clash.html

That's two violent incidents that should have escalated policing, at least one of which was after nightfall, both within DC, and I only had to go back less than 100 hours from the storming of the Capitol building to find them.

JJayoo wrote: »

There was no reason to have a big security presence out. Now if they organise another protest in same area you are gonna see a lot of security

Ever been to Washington, DC?

It is the most heavily policed area in earth if I recall, which makes it all the more troubling how they mysteriously were so short staffed and under prepared on that specific day.

jill_valentine

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Does anyone know is Trump carrying out any of his functions as president now?

I have seen nothing to suggest he is.

I can't tell if I agree with you or just want it to be true so I can sleep a little easier. There are so many weird things going on its quite hard to interpret either way.

Manic Moran

BluePlanet wrote: »

Yeah well i read that the Capitol Police requested that the National Guard be on standby in the days before the march.
But the request was denied due to the 'bad optics'.

No such problems when BLM was marching however.

There is no such thing as 'on standby' in the Guard, and I suspect there is a lack of knowledge being demonstrated by that now-ex Senate Sergeant-at-Arms. This isn't unusual, we have regularly to teach regular army the quirks of Guard use, let alone civilians. We are either activated, or we are not. Unless someone gives me an order to report to duty (which requires getting paid, which means approval authority for mobilisation), I'm going to my civilian job. The full-timers can certainly draw up plans, stage resources and so on, but to go from "we need to activate your standby" to "We're here" is a matter of hours, not minutes. No matter how prepared I am, with my uniforms and helmet in my 'ready bag' in the back of the car, I still need to drive from work, stopping whatever I'm doing (which may be easier said than done in some jobs) to my armory. The time 2:26pm "Not sure about the optics" to 3:04pm "Deployment approved" is a lag pursuit. No plans involving the Guard should rely on response times in anything less than 'hours' terms. Minutes just won't happen.

The only request for military support received ahead of time was for the activation of 320 Guardsmen, requested by the City of DC through Mayor Bowser and who were used to backfill police at less critical location, allowing the police to go to the protests. It is certainly possible that the reason they were used in such a manner was preferred optics, but manpower is manpower, and frankly, police -should- be the first line of response, not the Army. When things went to hell in a handbasket, those would be the only Guardsmen who could actively show up quickly: They still needed to go to the armory, draw gear, and get back out.