Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Water John

Trump boards Air Force One going to Texas. On the tarmac in front of it is the the jet with John Lewis, flying home. Doesn't even acknowledge it. Stay classy.

That Kavanaugh story, if fully verifiable could be very damaging.

Overheal

Water John wrote: »

Trump boards Air Force One going to Texas. On the tarmac in front of it is the the jet with John Lewis, flying home. Doesn't even acknowledge it. Stay classy.

That Kavanaugh story, if fully verifiable could be very damaging.

I see he has to go explain to Texas why it’s hospitals have to send patients home to die.

A courtesy he would only show to Texas because he has no hope of election without it. Compare his Hurricane response between Texas and Puerto Rico.

This snubbing of Lewis continues to make him look small.

abff

At this stage, everything Trump does is viewed by his opponents/detractors as being a self serving action motivated entirely by whether or not it will help him to get re-elected.

This, unfortunately, is 100% accurate. He may argue that it's based on the opposition's opinion of him, but it's totally grounded in reality.

fr336

Overheal wrote: »

I see he has to go explain to Texas why it’s hospitals have to send patients home to die.

In Italy this was a big deal. In the US it's just another day. So glad I don't live there!

Sean.3516

moon2 wrote: »

You describe a hypothetical scenario, which is objectively worse, and then ask people to defend their support of this scenario.

Yes, because that scenario is exactly what would have been the consequence of what people are saying should have been done. I'm not just pulling this out of my colon. The South was actually threatening to pull out. This is pretty well documented and there's no reason to assume the slave trade wouldn't have continued unimpeded throughout the 19th century if they had.

moon2 wrote: »

This imagined scenario is not the problem being discussed.

This is such a strange discussion because nobody, literally nobody disagrees on the immorality of slavery including the American Founders (at least the four influential ones I mentioned).

The issue is this: Knowing that slavery is wrong (as those four Founders did) given the social and political realities at that time and place, what was the right thing to do about slavery?

Everybody who reads that last paragraph and then says to themselves "ABOLISH IT OF COURSE!!"
Nobody who thinks this actually appreciates just how unthinkable that notion was in 1787. Slavery had been a universal institution in every single civilisation in history and you could count on one hand the number of countries that had abolished it in 1787. In fact, the first sovereign state IN THE WORLD to wash it's hands of the trans-Atlantic slave trade was the Vermont Republic in 1777 (which later became the US State of Vermont.)

Frankly it's a miracle that those four (Adam, Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton) had the moral wherewithal to see it for what it was in a society where it was an article of faith that blacks were an inferior race. And you guys must have real high opinions of yourselves if you think you would have easily came to the same conclusion had you been a product of that same society. Maybe you would have, but it's highly unlikely.

Again the question: Knowing that slavery was evil, what was the best way to approach it at the time?

If they had tried to abolish it, they would have failed for the reasons I've outlined.

To those of you who think they should have tried anyway. Fair enough, it might have helped them sleep better at night but it wouldn't have done much for blacks if the South had broken away and enshrined slavery in their own constitution.

As I've said. The least bad option was to tolerate slavery while taking measures to contain it like the constitutional ban on importing slaves after 1808, the 3/5ths Compromise, banning slavery in new states joining the US etc until eventually full abolition became an attainable goal.

listermint

What does this have to do with trump as president right now.?

Sean.3516

Leroy42 wrote: »

Sean, you said yourself that the North needed the South to help pay off the debts. So in that, at least in part, they were taking into consideration more than just the ending of slavery.

Regardless of economics, the the ultimate goal was was the have all 13 states join the Republic mainly for mutual security from external powers like Britain in the north and Spain from the south.

The preference was obviously for the Republic to be slavery free but it was a question of alternatives as I've said. Sure, it wouldn't have been good for the North if the South hadn't joined but it certainly wouldn't have been good for black people. In any case, it wasn't a zero-sum economic calculation.

And it's hard to charge the Northern states with being charlatans on slavery when every state north of Virginia abolished slavery within the next decade.

Sean.3516

listermint wrote: »

What does this have to do with trump as president right now.?

We're trying to decide whether or not Tom Cotton did a racism.

Penn

Although I obviously hope he suffers no illness or injury from it, I was kind of glad when I heard Rep.Gohmert tested positive for coronavirus. He's a Congressman for Texas, and considering how hard it's being hit I was hoping that it would spur him into action into really driving for people to wear masks.

https://twitter.com/replouiegohmert/status/1288522631000489985?s=20

Nope, he implies it was wearing the mask so much this past week that probably made him catch it.

Midlife

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Yes, because that scenario is exactly what would have been the consequence of what people are saying should have been done. I'm not just pulling this out of my colon. The South was actually threatening to pull out. This is pretty well documented and there's no reason to assume the slave trade wouldn't have continued unimpeded throughout the 19th century if they had.


This is such a strange discussion because nobody, literally nobody disagrees on the immorality of slavery including the American Founders (at least the four influential ones I mentioned).

The issue is this: Knowing that slavery is wrong (as those four Founders did) given the social and political realities at that time and place, what was the right thing to do about slavery?

Everybody who reads that last paragraph and then says to themselves "ABOLISH IT OF COURSE!!"
Nobody who thinks this actually appreciates just how unthinkable that notion was in 1787. Slavery had been a universal institution in every single civilisation in history and you could count on one hand the number of countries that had abolished it in 1787. In fact, the first sovereign state IN THE WORLD to wash it's hands of the trans-Atlantic slave trade was the Vermont Republic in 1777 (which later became the US State of Vermont.)

Frankly it's a miracle that those four (Adam, Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton) had the moral wherewithal to see it for what it was in a society where it was an article of faith that blacks were an inferior race. And you guys must have real high opinions of yourselves if you think you would have easily came to the same conclusion had you been a product of that same society. Maybe you would have, but it's highly unlikely.

Again the question: Knowing that slavery was evil, what was the best way to approach it at the time?

If they had tried to abolish it, they would have failed for the reasons I've outlined.

To those of you who think they should have tried anyway. Fair enough, it might have helped them sleep better at night but it wouldn't have done much for blacks if the South had broken away and enshrined slavery in their own constitution.

As I've said. The least bad option was to tolerate slavery while taking measures to contain it like the constitutional ban on importing slaves after 1808, the 3/5ths Compromise, banning slavery in new states joining the US etc until eventually full abolition became an attainable goal.

Other countries had gotten rid of slavery in the homelands. Seems as though it was acceptable to have it in the colonies and supply chains. Pretty similar to sweatshops and child labour today I guess.

England didn't have slavery in England. Stands to reason that when the US set up as a sovereign nation the same morality would prevail.

You act like abolition wouldn't have happened if not for the US but this is far from the truth.

I still don't get how you think it was worthwhile though. You can Tom should view the experience of black America and see if they would say the same

I think your view is that they need to be more 'educated' to judge it. How ironic?

Jack1985

Penn wrote: »

Although I obviously hope he suffers no illness or injury from it, I was kind of glad when I heard Rep.Gohmert tested positive for coronavirus. He's a Congressman for Texas, and considering how hard it's being hit I was hoping that it would spur him into action into really driving for people to wear masks.

https://twitter.com/replouiegohmert/status/1288522631000489985?s=20

Nope, he implies it was wearing the mask so much this past week that probably made him catch it.

Must of been the smell of bull circulating within his mask that made him catch it, what an utter idiot.

duploelabs

abff wrote: »

At this stage, everything Trump does is viewed by his opponents/detractors as being a self serving action motivated entirely by whether or not it will help him to get re-elected.

This, unfortunately, is 100% accurate. He may argue that it's based on the opposition's opinion of him, but it's totally grounded in reality.

When has been motivated by anything else?? Trump couldn't give two sh!ts about governing, the presidency, or the people, it's all about funneling state money into his private estate, the longer he stays in government the more he can grift.

valoren

A Texan phrase is an apt one in describing Trump.

"All Hat, No Cattle"

Trump Jr is on record saying that Russian money makes up a significant portion of their business. The only bank who would touch Trump's toxic credit worthiness, Deutsche Bank, turned out to be one which got caught laundering money for wealthy Russians. From the Panama Papers controversy a few years back, we learned how wealthy people used shell companies to hide assets and avoid domestic tax. If the father of a former British Prime Minister, David Cameron, can be au fait with such tax "avoision" then it's no stretch that a grifting Trump Organization would be as well.

It wouldn't surprise me if we ultimately learn that the Trump organization, beleaguered and floundered by the credit crunch, readily pawned itself to become a front for laundering money for wealthy Russian oligarchs. It would be a quid pro quo arrangement. The money would be invested to buy up western properties. Hotels, Golf resorts etc. The ultimate beneficiary would be the Russian while Trump get's to earn a branding and licensing fee to fund his “big hat" lifestyle, which in itself is a front as he get's to continue playing billionaire by pretending that his organization actually owns such assets. With such financial "kompromat", it can explain why he kowtows so egregiously to Putin and so aggressively fights the release of his financial records as a subsequent forensic examination of them could well reveal the mechanics of his finances. The current President of the United States compromised by criminal financial links to a geopolitical adversary? That would be a tough sell come November and any inkling of such would be the final nail in the coffin for Trump 2020.

Overheal

abff wrote: »

At this stage, everything Trump does is viewed by his opponents/detractors as being a self serving action motivated entirely by whether or not it will help him to get re-elected.

This, unfortunately, is 100% accurate. He may argue that it's based on the opposition's opinion of him, but it's totally grounded in reality.

I haven’t honestly seen him do much of anything that wasn’t to service his own ego or his re-election. The very first press conference kicked off with politicizing crowd sizes... he hasn’t done anything he thought would be a net loss to him that I can recollect.

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

We're trying to decide whether or not Tom Cotton did a racism.

He didn’t do himself or his party any real favors.

Sean.3516

Midlife wrote: »

Other countries had gotten rid of slavery in the homelands. Seems as though it was acceptable to have it in the colonies and supply chains. Pretty similar to sweatshops and child labour today I guess.

England didn't have slavery in England. Stands to reason that when the US set up as a sovereign nation the same morality would prevail.

It's less to do with morality and more to do with the fact that tobacco, cotton and sugar etc weren't been grown in those European countries. The main purpose of the trans-Atlantic slave trade was to provide labor for that particularly hard work.

This is why the US South was less inclined to abolish slavery even after it became a sovereign. Everything revolved around tobacco and cotton in that region.

Midlife wrote: »

You act like abolition wouldn't have happened if not for the US but this is far from the truth.

I'm saying abolition wouldn't have happened (in the American South) if not for the US. In other words if the South hadn't joined the US, abolition would have come a lot later than it did.

Midlife wrote: »

I still don't get how you think it was worthwhile though. You can Tom should view the experience of black America and see if they would say the same

Again, it's the same as when people were quoting "necessary evil" out of context.
"necessary" for what?
"worthwhile" in what respect?

Nobody is saying that there's anything intrinsically "necessary" or "worthwhile" about slavery but if the goal was to eventually abolish slavery, keeping the South in the fold was essential. In order to do that, the North had to temporarily tolerate slavery in the South.

That's what made tolerating slavery "necessary" in the words of Tom Cotton.

Midlife wrote: »

I think your view is that they need to be more 'educated' to judge it. How ironic?

Do blacks in the US have a particular experience? Yes.
Does that mean the opinions they form based on that experience are inherently correct? No.

These aren't subjective questions. No matter what colour you are, knowing actual facts is essential.

Water John

Deaths in the US have just passed 150K, sad milestone.

extra gravy

https://twitter.com/vladduthiersCBS/status/1288499117715595264?s=19

Spot on. For a President that whinges about the most trivial things, it's amazing there's no outrage from him over this. I wonder why...

aloyisious

Overheal wrote: »

Rep. Gohmert tests positive for Covid-19 one day after attending the Barr hearing in-person, where chairman Nadler has to admonish Republicans for violating committee rules on mask wearing.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/just-in-rep-louie-gohmert-reportedly-tests-positive-for-covid-day-after-barr-hearing/

His stated position on masks is "I will wear one when I get Covid-19" so he gets to wear one now.

Edit: “I can’t help but wonder if by keeping a mask on and keeping it in place that- if I might have put some germs or some of the virus onto the mask and breathed it in,” he told KETK. “I don’t know,” he said, “but I got it, we’ll see what happens from here.”

KETK is an East Texas TV service.

aloyisious

Water John wrote: »

That Kavanaugh story, if fully verifiable could be very damaging.

It seems Justice Kavanaugh sent adroitly-worded memos to his fellow USSC colleagues offering "advice" on how to avoid issuing rulings on tow issues: Trumps tax returns and a lower court ruling blocking a state law on abortion provision.

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/brett-kavanaugh-urged-supreme-court-colleagues-to-avoid-rulings-on-abortion-and-trump-s-tax-returns-report-says/ar-BB17l7k5?ocid=msedgntp

Water John

Wouldn't seniors like RBG love getting those memos from a fresher.

aloyisious

Portland is to get a break with DHS's acting Sec Chad Wolf ordering all federal officers moved to the city to leave tomorrow after Gov Kate Brown arranged a deal for Oregon State Police Officers to take up duty at the federal buildings. Trump is listed as having issued the withdrawal order.

Midlife

Sean.3516 wrote: »

It's less to do with morality and more to do with the fact that tobacco, cotton and sugar etc weren't been grown in those European countries. The main purpose of the trans-Atlantic slave trade was to provide labor for that particularly hard work.

This is why the US South was less inclined to abolish slavery even after it became a sovereign. Everything revolved around tobacco and cotton in that region.


I'm saying abolition wouldn't have happened (in the American South) if not for the US. In other words if the South hadn't joined the US, abolition would have come a lot later than it did.


Again, it's the same as when people were quoting "necessary evil" out of context.
"necessary" for what?
"worthwhile" in what respect?

Nobody is saying that there's anything intrinsically "necessary" or "worthwhile" about slavery but if the goal was to eventually abolish slavery, keeping the South in the fold was essential. In order to do that, the North had to temporarily tolerate slavery in the South.

That's what made tolerating slavery "necessary" in the words of Tom Cotton.


Do blacks in the US have a particular experience? Yes.
Does that mean the opinions they form based on that experience are inherently correct? No.

These aren't subjective questions. No matter what colour you are, knowing actual facts is essential.

So what's your point. Keeping slavery was a politically astute move to bind the country together.

Does this absolve the US of responsibility? No.

Did mistreatment of black people end with the abolition of slavery? No.

Bar a dog whistle to counter the BLM moment, I'm not sure what Cotton is trying to achieve here.

aloyisious

Midlife wrote: »

So what's your point. Keeping slavery was a politically astute move to bind the country together.

Does this absolve the US of responsibility? No.

Did mistreatment of black people end with the abolition of slavery? No.

Bar a dog whistle to counter the BLM moment, I'm not sure what Cotton is trying to achieve here.

Cotton wants no schools being "revisionist" or kids asking about U.S history from the slavery era as they may have heard about it from the present protests, he wants it a non-topic in schools. That way the kids won't ask about the statues, as per the present Trump rule-book.

pixelburp

I presume, to take the long view, Cotton may also be worried behind the really big conversation this 1619 Project work could start: restitution. IMO it's still valid despite the GOPs snark about "nobody being alive", and long overdue. Cotton and his ilk are probably worried about where this would lead, financially. The levees are beginning to leak.

Overheal

pixelburp wrote: »

I presume, to take the long view, Cotton may also be worried behind the really big conversation this 1619 Project work could start: restitution. IMO it's still valid despite the GOPs snark about "nobody being alive", and long overdue. Cotton and his ilk are probably worried about where this would lead, financially. The levees are beginning to leak.

I think they're more worried that since the Southern Strategy that their party has accrued a rolling list of racists, dog-whistlers, and a comfortable relationship with a base of constituents that proudly identify as white supremacists.

This comes about in the last 20 years since 9/11, in particular, an unholy pact with those groups to secure them seats in states and districts that keep them in power, often for the aim of their much older goals of regulating abortions and ****. It's devolved into organized voter suppression and blatant admissions that their platform has become so small and unpopular that a plurality of voters will never elect them to a majority. Rather than change their platform to reflect the ambitions of the people of the US, the sort of thing the framers intended for a democratic republic, they've elected for misdirection, suppression, and picking fights about the dumbest of things like global warming, wearing masks, and whitewashing our nations history.

banie01

I just heard 2 CNN anchors read out John Lewis's final Op-Ed.
Not ashamed to say I shed a tear or 3, the depth of that man's love for his country, the idea behind America and more tellingly it's people!
Indeed all people, was beautiful.

That democracy isn't a word, but an action.
Not gonna lie, not really a sentimental fella but it really, really touched me.
I think of our own civil rights leaders from the same era, Hume, Mallon, McClusky, Cooper and so many others here who took King and Lewis as their example.

Democracy is a verb, it's an action that we need to re-affirm, exercise and support wherever and however we can.
The more we exercise our rights to representative and inclusive Government, the stronger we keep them.

That he wrote such a powerful piece, on his deathbed knowing it was for posthumous publication is a strength that amazes me.
The difference in what actual leadership is, versus what occupies the White House is staggering.

Rest in power Rep.John Lewis

Overheal

Here is the op-ed for all

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/opinion/john-lewis-civil-rights-america.html

By John Lewis
Mr. Lewis, the civil rights leader who died on July 17, wrote this essay shortly before his death, to be published upon the day of his funeral. Editorial Page Editor Kathleen Kingsbury wrote about this piece and Mr. Lewis’s legacy in Thursday’s edition of our Opinion Today newsletter.

While my time here has now come to an end, I want you to know that in the last days and hours of my life you inspired me. You filled me with hope about the next chapter of the great American story when you used your power to make a difference in our society. Millions of people motivated simply by human compassion laid down the burdens of division. Around the country and the world you set aside race, class, age, language and nationality to demand respect for human dignity.

That is why I had to visit Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, though I was admitted to the hospital the following day. I just had to see and feel it for myself that, after many years of silent witness, the truth is still marching on.

Emmett Till was my George Floyd. He was my Rayshard Brooks, Sandra Bland and Breonna Taylor. He was 14 when he was killed, and I was only 15 years old at the time. I will never ever forget the moment when it became so clear that he could easily have been me. In those days, fear constrained us like an imaginary prison, and troubling thoughts of potential brutality committed for no understandable reason were the bars.

Though I was surrounded by two loving parents, plenty of brothers, sisters and cousins, their love could not protect me from the unholy oppression waiting just outside that family circle. Unchecked, unrestrained violence and government-sanctioned terror had the power to turn a simple stroll to the store for some Skittles or an innocent morning jog down a lonesome country road into a nightmare. If we are to survive as one unified nation, we must discover what so readily takes root in our hearts that could rob Mother Emanuel Church in South Carolina of her brightest and best, shoot unwitting concertgoers in Las Vegas and choke to death the hopes and dreams of a gifted violinist like Elijah McClain.

Like so many young people today, I was searching for a way out, or some might say a way in, and then I heard the voice of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on an old radio. He was talking about the philosophy and discipline of nonviolence. He said we are all complicit when we tolerate injustice. He said it is not enough to say it will get better by and by. He said each of us has a moral obligation to stand up, speak up and speak out. When you see something that is not right, you must say something. You must do something. Democracy is not a state. It is an act, and each generation must do its part to help build what we called the Beloved Community, a nation and world society at peace with itself.

Ordinary people with extraordinary vision can redeem the soul of America by getting in what I call good trouble, necessary trouble. Voting and participating in the democratic process are key. The vote is the most powerful nonviolent change agent you have in a democratic society. You must use it because it is not guaranteed. You can lose it.

You must also study and learn the lessons of history because humanity has been involved in this soul-wrenching, existential struggle for a very long time. People on every continent have stood in your shoes, though decades and centuries before you. The truth does not change, and that is why the answers worked out long ago can help you find solutions to the challenges of our time. Continue to build union between movements stretching across the globe because we must put away our willingness to profit from the exploitation of others.

Though I may not be here with you, I urge you to answer the highest calling of your heart and stand up for what you truly believe. In my life I have done all I can to demonstrate that the way of peace, the way of love and nonviolence is the more excellent way. Now it is your turn to let freedom ring.

When historians pick up their pens to write the story of the 21st century, let them say that it was your generation who laid down the heavy burdens of hate at last and that peace finally triumphed over violence, aggression and war. So I say to you, walk with the wind, brothers and sisters, and let the spirit of peace and the power of everlasting love be your guide.

Midlife

aloyisious wrote: »

Cotton wants no schools being "revisionist" or kids asking about U.S history from the slavery era as they may have heard about it from the present protests, he wants it a non-topic in schools. That way the kids won't ask about the statues, as per the present Trump rule-book.

Yes. He's got a secretary for education and a VP who want to 'teach the controversy' about creationism.

... and he's concerned about teaching the history of slavery

Christy42

US gdp set to drop by a 33% in q2. For comparison Germany is dropping by about 10%. The pattern repeats itself. Once again a Democrat is going to have to dig them out of the hole Republicans have dug for the US economy.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/live/2020/jul/30/lloyds-shell-report-big-losses-covid-19-as-markets-await-german-and-us-gdp-business-live