A Guide to Indexing Gears: anyone else find it very tricky?

Arequipa

Good afternoon,

I hope you are all well.
I have been trying to get better with bike maintenance jobs over the lockdown.
I have a carbon fibre race bike with ultegra 6800 mechanical groupset.
I can change the internal cable and know the theory behind indexing the gears, cable tension, limit screws, b tension screws, ...
I am referring here to the rear dersilleur!

My current bike has a fair bit of mileage in the cassette chain and front chainrings.
I have been trying for quite a while to get smooth shifting, but it seems verrry tricky.
I either get good shifts up to a bigger cassette and crap shifts down to a smaller cassette ...
Or it will shift down well but not go all the way up to the 32 cog.

I use the adjustment barrel a lot...maybe too much and its thread seems to break down quite quickly...

Do any of you relate to this?

What do you think is the best explanatory video / article on gear indexing?

I find this video quite good...

https://youtu.be/wQncKmddahk

At a certain point, in spite of all the tweaking, is it better to just fork out on a new cassette, chain and front inner chainring?

Is it a good idea to change your chains more often....?
Whenever i go to a bikeshop, they seem to suggest the chain could be worn?
So if u change your chain more often, I suppose the cassette and cgainrings will last linger and the shifting will be better?

Apologies for all the questions... I would just like to get a handle on this..

Thank you for reading!

A

Tony04

If it's not going up to the 32 tooth sprocket the rear derailleur needs tension or if that fails the l limit screw needs to be unscrewed a little.
A worn chain can lead to skipping and will if really worn snap get a chain checker to tell you if the chains worn.

Tony04

Yeh a worn chain wears down the cassette a worn cassette wears down the chain. If the chains on 0.75 wear I'd replace both are if you replace the chain before that you can keep the cassette through 3 chains and the chainrings through about 6

Takca

Arequipa wrote: »

I either get good shifts up to a bigger cassette and crap shifts down to a smaller cassette ...

I had a lot of this recently, shifts from bigger to smaller cogs on the cassette were either delayed or didn't happen unless I double shifted. In the end I noticed the cable wasn't moving as freely in the casing as it should be.

First I tried lubing the cable in the casing which helped a bit but ultimatly I ended up changing the cable/casing and sorted it out.

Tony04 wrote: »

Yeh a worn chain wears down the cassette a worn cassette wears down the chain. If the chains on 0.75 wear I'd replace both are if you replace the chain before that you can keep the cassette through 3 chains and the chainrings through about 6

I've just bought a 4th chain for the same cassette, maybe I should start thinking about a new cassette...

Arequipa

Thank you for the replies gents...

So if the cassette and chain have significant wear, will I be unable to index the gears properly?

At what point of wear or stretch do you replace a chain?

Thanks again!

rayman1

I had a similar problem with shifting the rear derailleur and sometimes having to click the shifter twice to get one move. Tried new cables but in the end the only solution was a new rear derailleur. They are not that expensive.

Macy0161

Last time this happened to me, it was a worn chain.

crosstownk

1. Cable. Cables often begin to fray - usually up at the shifter end. As a result the cable slowly lengthens causing the index to go out of adustment. Pull back the lever hood and then the grey tab to see if you can see anything wrong.

2. Worn chain/and or cassette. Get a simple chain checker tool which will tell you instantly if the chain is OK or not.

3. Worn jockey wheels have excessive lateral movement/wobble and cause shifting issues.

If the indexing was perfect previously then there should be no need to adjust the limit screws - unless the derailleur hanger is bent.

andy69

Had this on a bike before where I couldn't get both ends to shift properly. Was clean at one end...or the other... But not both.
In my case it was a slight bend in the derailiuer hanger. Just over time and stress it had bent slightly. Apparently it is not too uncommon.

I took it off and placed it on kitchen counter and compared to the new one...was very visibly different when compared and when on a totally smooth surface.
Once replaced, the indexing was perfect again

07Lapierre

Have you replaced the gear cable? (Inner cable AND the outer casing?)

Does your bike have internal routes cables?

Is your chain worn?

Wishbone Ash

Arequipa wrote: »

....At what point of wear or stretch do you replace a chain?...

Generally 4-5,000kms depending on weather conditions and maintenance. A cheap chain checker tool is the easier way to check.


https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/lifeline-chain-wear-indicator/rp-prod10219

Wishbone Ash

Takca wrote: »

...I've just bought a 4th chain for the same cassette, maybe I should start thinking about a new cassette...

I can only manage 2 chains per cassette. I've tried a third one a few times but the chain just skips/slips.

Type 17

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I can only manage 2 chains per cassette. I've tried a third one a few times but the chain just skips/slips.

You may be changing the chains too late - change at about 0.75% if it's a 6/7/8/9 speed setup, and about 0.65% if it's a 10/11 speed.

I've over 8,500km on my 11-sp cassette & chainrings and they're on the 5th chain (no chain was allowed to wear past 0.60%)

Wishbone Ash

Type 17 wrote: »

You may be changing the chains too late - change at about 0.75% if it's a 6/7/8/9 speed setup, and about 0.65% if it's a 10/11 speed.

I've over 8,500km on my 11-sp cassette & chainrings and they're on the 5th chain (no chain was allowed to wear past 0.60%)

I suppose it depends on what you're spending on cassettes. I rarely spend more than €25 so it would make no sense to utilise 5 chains to save wear on a €25 cassette.

Arequipa

Thank you for the replies...

And how does a worn chain, cassette affect the gear change?

if the shifter, cable, rear derailleur are all functioning perfectly.... will they be impossible to set up perfectly on worn cassettes and chains?

Takca

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I suppose it depends on what you're spending on cassettes. I rarely spend more than €25 so it would make no sense to utilise 5 chains to save wear on a €25 cassette.

Ya I guess the quality of the cassette (and possibly the chain is a factor), a 105 cassette came on my bike and still looks fine after 15,000km, although I might change that opinion if things start slipping when I stick on the 4th chain.

Another thing that might be a factor is if you have a preferred gear ratio, I live in a area where the gradient varies a lot. And being on the heavier end of the scale I would use the entire cassette all the time. So I guess i'm wearing it down evenly and not favouring a single cog most of the time.

crosstownk

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I can only manage 2 chains per cassette. I've tried a third one a few times but the chain just skips/slips.

I got 25,000kms (5 chains) out of my last 105 5800 cassette and I reckon I may have got another 5,000km but I was itching to fit the new 6800 cassette that had been sitting my spares box for a couple of years. I clean the chain regularly and once it gets to the 0.75 wear limit, I replace it.

I'm anal about lubing the chain - every link gets a drop of oil and I only oil a clean chain - oiling a dirty chain accelerates wear.

Wishbone Ash

crosstownk wrote: »

...I'm anal about lubing the chain - every link gets a drop of oil...

Waay too much. Every 3rd link is more than adequate. It's not as if the chain is linked to a PTO. It won't heat up! Less is more! :P

crosstownk

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Waay too much. Every 3rd link is more than adequate. It's not as if the chain is linked to a PTO. It won't heat up! Less is more! :P

But how will the pins and rollers of the other links pick up the oil? It’s not like they’re in an oil bath or sump. You’re under lubing your chain. It’s that simple.

triggermortis

crosstownk wrote: »

But how will the pins and rollers of the other links pick up the oil? It’s not like they’re in an oil bath or sump. You’re under lubing your chain. It’s that simple.

+1.
Each part needs a drop of oil to prevent wear - that’s what the oil is for. If you use the wrong oil and muck sticks to the oiled parts, that’s when wear is introduced

Arequipa

Fair play to you on cleaning and oiling your chain.
I do try... i commute right through the winter and clean the chain and cassette once a week at the weekend...
But there is so much muck and grit on the roads & water... so in winter, i find it is hard to keep the parts 100% clean all the time...

Type 17

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I suppose it depends on what you're spending on cassettes. I rarely spend more than €25 so it would make no sense to utilise 5 chains to save wear on a €25 cassette.

Fair enough, my good bike's drivetrain is Ultegra 11-speed so, on chainreaction, a cassette is €98 and the front chainring is €150 - cheaper to keep throwing chains on every so often.

Arequipa wrote: »

Thank you for the replies...

And how does a worn chain, cassette affect the gear change?

if the shifter, cable, rear derailleur are all functioning perfectly.... will they be impossible to set up perfectly on worn cassettes and chains?

Yes, a worn chain has a lot of side-play, so when the derailleur moves out a sprocket, the chain doesn't come with it - the side-play allows it to flex enough so that it stays on the old sprocket, clattering away.

Arequipa

ah okay, that makes sense...
I ride mostly in the middle gear on the cassette and after significant mileage, this seems to be the area where the gear slips or wont settle on the gear.

So, if the components are worn down, even an experienced mechanic wont be able to index the gears properly?

Type 17

Arequipa wrote: »

...So, if the components are worn down, even an experienced mechanic wont be able to index the gears properly?

No, it's like asking a chef to bake cakes with an oven that won't heat up properly.

In fairness, the less gears a drivetrain has, the more forgiving it is (bigger spacing in the indexing = less precision required for correct operation) - you can still tune a 6/7-speed setup with worn chain, cassette, jockey wheels, derailleur pivots, and/or slightly sticky cables and/or slightly misaligned derailleur. A little wear in each of these adds up to a threshold of <won't shift properly>, but if one of them is very high and the others are low-wear, it will still be an issue.

The wear-total threshold on 9/10 and especially on 11/12-speed setups is much lower.

Wishbone Ash

crosstownk wrote: »

But how will the pins and rollers of the other links pick up the oil? It’s not like they’re in an oil bath or sump. You’re under lubing your chain. It’s that simple.

When I run the chain through a cloth, it spreads to the other bits. It will also spread after a few gear changes via the cassette. Perhaps I am under-lubing. I've just fitted a new chain to one of my bikes so I'll do every link and see how it goes.

Tony04

Arequipa wrote: »

ah okay, that makes sense...
I ride mostly in the middle gear on the cassette and after significant mileage, this seems to be the area where the gear slips or wont settle on the gear.

So, if the components are worn down, even an experienced mechanic wont be able to index the gears properly?

It depends what you mean by slipping, if the shifting isnt crisp and a bit jumpy you might need a new cable most likely as the cable has probably jammed up in someway somewhere between shifter and mech, if the gear skips under power your cassette is worn this is because the engagement between chain and casstte isnt great and the chain gets caught and crunches off or a chain link wont engage with a cassette tooth and crunches in place

These issues shouldn't happen if you keep on top of your maintenance so keeping an eye on chain wear keeping an eye on bike shift performance cleaning and lubing your chain with a rag and every few times a full degrease and relube.

Also be careful not to land/lean your bike on the drive side as if you bend your derailleur hanger itll lead to whole load of shifting problems.

Arequipa

Thanks Tony... that all makes good sense...

TGD

If the derailleur or/and jockey wheels are worn you won’t get crisp shifting. Check for play/sloppyness

crosstownk

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

When I run the chain through a cloth, it spreads to the other bits.

Surely a cloth will soak away any excess oil rather than distribute it to other pins and rollers......?

The weather was crap today so I wimped out of a spin and instead I had to queue outside IKEA for over an hour where I thought about this far too much and the following theory crossed my mind: If the pin and roller are dry then it is possible that the roller may not rotate about the pin and instead rotate inside the cassette sprocket valleys which could cause premature cassette wear.

Please excuse my ramblings.

07Lapierre

crosstownk wrote: »

Surely a cloth will soak away any excess oil rather than distribute it to other pins and rollers......?

The weather was crap today so I wimped out of a spin and instead I had to queue outside IKEA for over an hour where I thought about this far too much and the following theory crossed my mind: If the pin and roller are dry then it is possible that the roller may not rotate about the pin and instead rotate inside the cassette sprocket valleys which could cause premature cassette wear.

Please excuse my ramblings.

Remind me not to queue at IKEA!

The type of lube u use can also determine how much u put on the chain. I use Muck Off (dry lube) at this time of year. It's VERY light and I hold the nozzle on the chain and rotate the chainwheel 3 or 4 times. This puts 2or 3 drops on each roller. I'd get about a week out of the chain if it doesn't rain. If it rains, I have to reapply the lube.

WA. One drop every 3 roller? Yeah that's a bit lean alright. What lube u using?

Tony04

Technically only the rollers need lubrication, but in reality lubricants also prevent against rust and water getting into the system.

So after lubing wipe the excess off the side plates with a rag is something I do all the time this also leaves a very light layer of lubricant on to prevent against rust. Usally after lubing I'll shift in to each sprocket, I do this especially in winter to flush out any water I've missed to prevent surface rust.

With dry lube which I use at this time of year I applu it to each individual link as it's more sticky, wet lube in the winter I apply with a couple of spins of the cranks. In bad weather like this I find all weather teflon lube the best.

If your riding in really torrential weather I'd slip on as much wer lube as I can and wouldnt bother wiping off the excess as its probably going to be washed off anyway