Electricity supplier

unkel

KCross wrote: »

CRU intimated that they werent willing to do that as it would disproportionally affect poorer people who cant afford to invest in smart equipment

Only in Ireland would one stop progress for the good of all because one (incorrectly) thinks it might affect a few people adversely :rolleyes:

Poor (not working) people typically have plenty of spare time. You don't need to spend a cent on automated equipment to make use of cheap tariffs, the brain will do just fine.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Only in Ireland would one stop progress for the good of all because one (incorrectly) thinks it might affect a few people adversely :rolleyes:

Poor (not working) people typically have plenty of spare time. You don't need to spend a cent on automated equipment to make use of cheap tariffs, the brain will do just fine.

You mean Poor as the unfortunates on the Welfare ? there's a lot of working People not much better off.....

unkel

My point is just that you can benefit from cheaper tariffs without having to purchase expensive equipment to do it for you. I'd even go a step further - chances are that (at least for the first few years) such equipment will never pay for itself.

If you can accept that, then it is a nonsense to not implement a similar system as in the UK with a changing tariff every 30 minutes with these tariffs published well in advance

The problem with smart meters is that appliances, electric cars etc will have to get smarter to talk to each other.

I've no doubt that in the near future electricity tariffs will be set to incentivise more green energy usage and unfortunately for Ireland that depends mostly on Wind, there are Solar PV planning applications but we're years off Solar PV being anything on the grid that wind is today and it's a sad reflection on a backward Government by only giving subsidies to wind farms as if there is no sunlight in Ireland.

What would be cool is if the smart meter had the ability to connect to your electric heating, heat pump etc to turn it on when there is more green energy and when costs are lower.

I don't know how smart these new esb meters are, is all they do wirelessly send the Kwh and that's it, with the ability to export ?

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

What would be cool is if the smart meter had the ability to connect to your electric heating, heat pump etc to turn it on when there is more green energy and when costs are lower.

I think it works the other way, your controller queries the api to get tomorrow's energy prices. You then control the appliances based on the prices. An example would be you immersion heater, you don't need to replace the entire thing, just install a smart time switch, which can be triggered via your controller.

the_amazing_raisin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The problem with smart meters is that appliances, electric cars etc will have to get smarter to talk to each other.

I've no doubt that in the near future electricity tariffs will be set to incentivise more green energy usage and unfortunately for Ireland that depends mostly on Wind, there are Solar PV planning applications but we're years off Solar PV being anything on the grid that wind is today and it's a sad reflection on a backward Government by only giving subsidies to wind farms as if there is no sunlight in Ireland.

What would be cool is if the smart meter had the ability to connect to your electric heating, heat pump etc to turn it on when there is more green energy and when costs are lower.

I don't know how smart these new esb meters are, is all they do wirelessly send the Kwh and that's it, with the ability to export ?

I've seen Daikin heat pumps have the ability to trigger off an external relay to recommend the heat pump switches on.

And I think Bosch appliances have a similar ability, although I think it's done via an external energy manager.

So the technology is coming, and it'll work it'll way down the price levels pretty quickly I think since it's just an extension of the timers most appliances have built in already

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

I think it works the other way, your controller queries the api to get tomorrow's energy prices. You then control the appliances based on the prices. An example would be you immersion heater, you don't need to replace the entire thing, just install a smart time switch, which can be triggered via your controller.

Probably some combination of both, the smart meter uses the upcoming prices to signal when to appliances when the electricity is cheap. And they decide whether they should be run or not based on how they're setup

liamog

liamog wrote: »

I think it works the other way, your controller queries the api to get tomorrow's energy prices. You then control the appliances based on the prices. An example would be you immersion heater, you don't need to replace the entire thing, just install a smart time switch, which can be triggered via your controller.

That might be how it works today but what I'm talking about is devices that communicate with the grid so the grid can turn them on and off at your preference of course because the amount of green energy on the grid will change at different times of the day/night.

An EV that will send energy to the grid whenever demand requires etc.

the_amazing_raisin

This thread has managed to get me intrigued about the idea of agile metering and predicting demand and supply.

Even if they don't bring it in, the same could be applied to home solar to maximise self consumption.

Truth be told, there's only a handful of appliance that would make sense to link to an agile tariff. Those are appliances where you're more concerned about the end time than start time, in other words it has to be finished by a certain time, it can start anytime between now and then

From what I can tell these would include:

• EV chargers
• Washing Machines
• Dryers
• Immersion heaters
• Heat pumps
• Ovens (maybe, I know they can do delayed start but I'm not sure about leaving food in the oven for too long)

Other appliances don't need any smart energy awareness built in, you're going to want them to work around you, not around the electricity price.

For example, if your kettle or coffee machine refused to start because the electricity price will be cheaper in 30 mins, would you REALLY be happy to wait? Or if the TV switched off during a match because the tariffs had gotten too high? I imagine those would be short lived products

The good news is that those products above are starting to have wireless connectivity built in and can be controlled remotely. Of course you need to find an energy manager which is aware of the tariffs and can control these products.

I've found the Home Assistant project looks good. It's open source and not cloud based which is nice for keeping your data in your hands. And works off a Raspberry Pi, so shouldn't be too expensive to setup. It seems to have a lot of integrations already, although I suspect there'll be a few key ones missing.

https://www.home-assistant.io/

There will no doubt be proprietary ones coming as well, so I expect this is something which will become more commonplace in future

liamog

You've missed the biggest home appliance that makes sense with agile pricing.
Install a powerwall and charge it when the prices are low. I wonder how the payback calculations work out.

Lumen

liamog wrote: »

You've missed the biggest home appliance that makes sense with agile pricing.
Install a powerwall and charge it when the prices are low. I wonder how the payback calculations work out.

Not great. In the US it costs 0.17c per warranted kWh (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Powerwall#Powerwall_specifications)

In Ireland that's more than the price difference between peak and off-peak.

Of course you might get payback out of warranty, but....Tesla.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

You've missed the biggest home appliance that makes sense with agile pricing.
Install a powerwall and charge it when the prices are low. I wonder how the payback calculations work out.

Whoops, I did forget about solar batteries, thanks for reminding

The problem though is that green energy might be as cheap as the current night rate and dirty energy if you want to call it might end up costing more than the current day rate to encourage uptake of green energy, one thing for certain is that the current DAY/NIGHT will come to an end. Pain in the ass for me who can only charge the car at home at night so if that's the case I will delay smart meter as long as possible or until tariffs are a lot clearer.

To be honest, I think we're connected too much to the internet as it is.

the_amazing_raisin

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem though is that green energy might be as cheap as the current night rate and dirty energy if you want to call it might end up costing more than the current day rate to encourage uptake of green energy, one thing for certain is that the current DAY/NIGHT will come to an end. Pain in the ass for me who can only charge the car at home at night so if that's the case I will delay smart meter as long as possible or until tariffs are a lot clearer.

To be honest, I think we're connected too much to the internet as it is.

I'm not sure day and night metering will end anytime soon. I mean you can pay your bill via direct debit but there's still folks who insist on paying it in the post office.


As far as I can tell, agile tariffs are a bit like tracker mortgages for electricity. They follow the wholesale prices plus some margin built in for the supplier. Day/Night metering is basically the same just over a much coarser time period



If you look at Octopus Energy's agile plan in the UK, they've a graph showing the average prices of electricity over the past year. The cheapest times are unsurprisingly during the night. So even if you stuck with charging at night at fixed times you'd probably still end up saving


https://octopus.energy/agile/


Of course, since there doesn't seem to be any plans on agile tariffs in Ireland, this is all a bit of a moot point :rolleyes:

cros13

KCross wrote: »

CRU.... were just talking about having 3 static timeframes in a 24hr period instead of the 2 we have today. That was a few years ago now that I read that, so lets see what they actually come up with.

I heard the same thing. Just the introduction of a Peak period to the billing.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd be happy with a feed-in-tariff at the moment, it would give me the incentive to get solar PV it's just sad we're limited to 5.5 Kw to the grid on single phase.

No need for expensive battery with grid storage.

They better introduce it in 2021 as promised. I just bought three pallets of 320W panels in anticipation.

Lumen wrote: »

Not great. In the US it costs 0.17c per warranted kWh (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Powerwall#Powerwall_specifications)

In Ireland that's more than the price difference between peak and off-peak.

Of course you might get payback out of warranty, but....Tesla.

My numbers for a kWh cycled via the powerwall in ireland were around 11c/kWh.
I wouldn't be too worried about it lasting long beyond the warranty.

richie123

What is the problem with the esb/government not allowing ordinary householders or business to sell excess electricity back to the grid ?
Can some one come up with a simple explanation for this mentality?..apart from colluding with the esb to maintain it's monopoly situation?
It is unbelievable how frustrating this is..as I would install both solar pv and wind turbines as would many others would too I'm sure..if we can sell excess to the ****ing grid !!!

the_amazing_raisin

richie123 wrote: »

Can some one come up with a simple explanation for this mentality?..apart from colluding with the esb to maintain it's monopoly situation?

There you have it. Basically the ESB don't want the hassle and the government isn't bothered forcing them to do it.

We should have a minimum pricing scheme like what they have in the UK. Then energy suppliers would have something else to compete on rather than a static feed in tariff like the refit scheme.

My only advice is to email your local TDs and politely ask them to support the climate action plan to ensure it gets through the daily as fast as possible.

richie123

richie123 wrote: »

What is the problem with the esb/government not allowing ordinary householders or business to sell excess electricity back to the grid ?
Can some one come up with a simple explanation for this mentality?..apart from colluding with the esb to maintain it's monopoly situation?
It is unbelievable how frustrating this is..as I would install both solar pv and wind turbines as would many others would too I'm sure..if we can sell excess to the ****ing grid !!!

Ireland.INC will look after the pockets of big business, the multinationals ensuring the taxpayer heavily subsidise them. i.e wind energy companies and soon to be solar PV companies, once they got wind that the taxpayer was going to subsidies solar PV the applications came flooding in.

I too have no intention of installing solar PV only to have to try dump it or heat endless amounts of hot water I can never use and I won't pay for a battery either.

KCross

richie123 wrote: »

Can some one come up with a simple explanation for this mentality?..apart from colluding with the esb to maintain it's monopoly situation?

^ that

It’s extra work and less money for ESB.
It will likely need government subsidy so a drain on the budget for the government so they’re not in a rush either.

EU rules are probably the only reasons it’s going to move forward at all.

richie123

cruisey1987 wrote: »

There you have it. Basically the ESB don't want the hassle and the government isn't bothered forcing them to do it.

We should have a minimum pricing scheme like what they have in the UK. Then energy suppliers would have something else to compete on rather than a static feed in tariff like the refit scheme.

My only advice is to email your local TDs and politely ask them to support the climate action plan to ensure it gets through the daily as fast as possible.

Is this not a solution to our climate crises ?
Even a bad price of 6 7 cent a kw paid out and I would install immediately...as would 1000s of others ..powerwalls or home batteries are a waste of money as most people installing green systems would have an electric vehicle which would also serve as a powerwall in the future.
It sickens me to think we're subsidising large companies through our pso levies and we're not allowed a slice of that action ?
Where is Eamon Ryan on this issue ? Sorry now for the rant.very frustrating.

the_amazing_raisin

richie123 wrote: »

Where is Eamon Ryan on this issue ? Sorry now for the rant.very frustrating.

No worries, I find it frustrating too. The greens seem to be doing nothing but arguing amongst themselves as to who is greenest of the greens. Hopefully they get their act together, but since the public finances have been severely drained they won't be able to afford much.

I think minium pricing is better than feed in since it's paid out by the electricity companies instead of the government, so not another subsidy.

To be fair, self consumption is better than feed in tariffs because without batteries you'll basically end up exporting everything you produce.

If say electricity cost €0.16 per kWh and you got paid €0.08 per kWh for export, then if you export 1000kWh and import 1000kWh it costs €80, a saving of €80 over having no export

But if you have batteries then you can use the 1000kWh you generated to avoid the 1000kWh import, so it's a saving of €160.

I know the added expense of batteries makes the payback period a lot longer so it's hard to justify. The good part is that you can add batteries more easily than panels, so you can start with a small battery to keep costs down and scale up from there

graememk

If you do get your useage down because of a combination of solar (& batteries if applicable) the standing charge may end up being more important to watch instead of just unit price.

Eg energia have the cheapest rates, but the standing charge is one of the highest.

richie123

richie123 wrote: »

Is this not a solution to our climate crises ?
Even a bad price of 6 7 cent a kw paid out and I would install immediately...as would 1000s of others ..powerwalls or home batteries are a waste of money as most people installing green systems would have an electric vehicle which would also serve as a powerwall in the future.
It sickens me to think we're subsidising large companies through our pso levies and we're not allowed a slice of that action ?
Where is Eamon Ryan on this issue ? Sorry now for the rant.very frustrating.

Hardly, anything we do in Ireland will have any impact on climate.

If you believe we're changing the climate due to Co2 then if I were you I'd lobby the Government to turn some of that land for forrestry into proper hardwood forest that is not going to be harvested for money. Ireland is the most deforested land in the continent of Europe.

Snowdonia National Park in Wales has a lot more forest than all of Ireland, that's a disgraceful situation we have on this Island, we plant dirt spruce for harvesting not for the benefit of climate of People or the land + we grossly over farm, this needs to change.

Sorry for my rant lol but I feel Irish People are so used to a barren landscape that they don't know any better.

If you think you'll get 6 or 7 cent per Kwh you're dreaming, the Taxpayer will be funding this and if it's not done properly the cost of electricity or levies on our electric bill, a lot of this is going to wind energy companies and soon solar PV and wind energy companies are paid when the wind doesn't blow, so I wonder does this mean that on a cloudy day solar pv companies get paid too or at night ? lol.

richie123

cruisey1987 wrote: »

No worries, I find it frustrating too. The greens seem to be doing nothing but arguing amongst themselves as to who is greenest of the greens. Hopefully they get their act together, but since the public finances have been severely drained they won't be able to afford much.

I think minium pricing is better than feed in since it's paid out by the electricity companies instead of the government, so not another subsidy.

To be fair, self consumption is better than feed in tariffs because without batteries you'll basically end up exporting everything you produce.

If say electricity cost €0.16 per kWh and you got paid €0.08 per kWh for export, then if you export 1000kWh and import 1000kWh it costs €80, a saving of €80 over having no export

But if you have batteries then you can use the 1000kWh you generated to avoid the 1000kWh import, so it's a saving of €160.

I know the added expense of batteries makes the payback period a lot longer so it's hard to justify. The good part is that you can add batteries more easily than panels, so you can start with a small battery to keep costs down and scale up from there

Agree with you.but I'm looking to actually make money from this which I should be allowed to do so.not just a select few big companies.

the_amazing_raisin

graememk wrote: »

If you do get your useage down because of a combination of solar (& batteries if applicable) the standing charge may end up being more important to watch instead of just unit price.

Eg energia have the cheapest rates, but the standing charge is one of the highest.

Absolutely, my electricity usage is quite high at around 8000kWh per year. That's with all electric cooking, heat pump and electric vehicle. Energia is cheapest with an annual bill of around €1200, around €200 is standing charge.

However if I reduced consumption by 50% and shifted usage to 80% night rates (charge batteries at night to cover the days usage) then my bill with energia would be around €630.

A third of this is now standing charge, so moving to a different supplier with a lower standing rate would save even more money.

It looks like Bright and Iberdrola have much lower standing charges at around €75 and €128 respectively, they might be worth a look

richie123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hardly, anything we do in Ireland will have any impact on climate.

If you believe we're changing the climate due to Co2 then if I were you I'd lobby the Government to turn some of that land for forrestry into proper hardwood forest that is not going to be harvested for money. Ireland is the most deforested land in the continent of Europe.

Snowdonia National Park in Wales has a lot more forest than all of Ireland, that's a disgraceful situation we have on this Island, we plant dirt spruce for harvesting not for the benefit of climate of People or the land + we grossly over farm, this needs to change.

Sorry for my rant lol but I feel Irish People are so used to a barren landscape that they don't know any better.

If you think you'll get 6 or 7 cent per Kwh you're dreaming, the Taxpayer will be funding this and if it's not done properly the cost of electricity or levies on our electric bill, a lot of this is going to wind energy companies and soon solar PV and wind energy companies are paid when the wind doesn't blow, so I wonder does this mean that on a cloudy day solar pv companies get paid too or at night ? lol.

Well I meant more so on a world wide basis.
Solar and wind combined with storage pumped or megapacks (battery)like what Elon musk has done in Australia.
Re the cost per kw.if I'm willing to sell for 7 cent wholesale and esb sell on for 12 or 14 cent is that not a realistic proposition? What am I missing here ?

the_amazing_raisin

richie123 wrote: »

Agree with you.but I'm looking to actually make money from this which I should be allowed to do so.not just a select few big companies.

I salute your ambitions sir, and I hope it works out.

Personally I'm gonna aim for just getting my electricity bill as close to zero as possible, and make myself immune to power cuts

richie123

richie123 wrote: »

Agree with you.but I'm looking to actually make money from this which I should be allowed to do so.not just a select few big companies.

That money will be coming from the taxpayer and if not planned right it will end up causing bills to be much higher. The Irish Government will ensure the Companies get rich first.

richie123

richie123 wrote: »

Well I meant more so on a world wide basis.
Solar and wind combined with storage pumped or megapacks (battery)like what Elon musk has done in Australia.
Re the cost per kw.if I'm willing to sell for 7 cent wholesale and esb sell on for 12 or 14 cent is that not a realistic proposition? What am I missing here ?

Depends on what the ESB will be willing to pay anything else the taxpayer will be funding. So can't be too high or bills will have to increase and that's not good for those in rented accommodation, People in Apartments etc and those who can't afford to install Solar PV.

It's a shame we're not allowed more than 5.5 Kw to the grid on single phase because the more you send to the grid the more money you make or less you have to import, the more you send would be great for electric heating in Winter and of course EV charging.

richie123

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I salute your ambitions sir, and I hope it works out.

Personally I'm gonna aim for just getting my electricity bill as close to zero as possible, and make myself immune to power cuts

As things stand now zero bills is impossible without spending close on 20 grand ..which is pointless. When you do payback initial cost more than likely a battery will be very inefficient or pv panels will have degraded etc less efficient.until your paid for your excess produced pv generation won't make sense.