Is anyone else getting scared of where society is going?

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

Well then that's ok. I have no respect for your views because you have a racist opinion. I don't respect racism.

I do find it funny that you tell me I have no idea of what it is like to be black or Asian or any ethnic minority. I don't. But I also know they have no idea what it's like to be white. It's not about race.

Do poor black people know what it's like to be Barack Obama? Do they have shared life experiences? Do they know what it's like to be Bill Cosby? Does their shared skin colour make them the same?

Am I the same as Simon Cowell, Jeffrey Dahmer and PewDiePie because I share a skin colour?

People, regardless of race, are different and all lead different lives and have different experiences. I accept no responsibility or acceptance of any accusation of white privilege. In much the same way I would never think of accusing an entire race of people of anything. I judge people on their character not on their skin colour.

Show me a law that discriminates against people based on race and I will campaign for it to be changed.

Again I'm not really sure what point you;re trying to make other than to downgrade racism s a problem. There are some classic racist in denial tropes there.

Sorry for using the r word but I think it's best not to be politically correct - I know you on the right hate political correctness.

Just out of interest, how many black and ethnic minority voices (you can put a numerical figure on it) would you have to hear to make you consider there might be a problem with systemic racism and racist police brutality in the US?

Or a problem with racism in Ireland?

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

Disagreeing with BLM protests is enough for you to consider someone am extremist. Ok.

Why on earth would you disagree with a protest against racist police brutality other than because you support that racist police brutality?

Supporting racist police brutality is a very extreme position.

Danzy

sid waddell wrote: »

Why on earth would you disagree with a protest against racist police brutality other than because you support that racist police brutality?

Supporting racist police brutality is a very extreme position.

If you are so against racist police brutality why didn't you make it more clear in your post?

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

Again I'm not really sure what point you;re trying to make other than to downgrade racism s a problem. There are some classic racist in denial tropes there.

Sorry for using the r word but I think it's best not to be politically correct - I know you on the right hate political correctness.

Just out of interest, how many black and ethnic minority voices (you can put a numerical figure on it) would you have to hear to make you consider there might be a problem with systemic racism and racist police brutality in the US?

Or a problem with racism in Ireland?

I'd have to ask you, what would you constitute a racist problem in Ireland to be? I mean, there certainly are racists. I don't know what you suggest we do to eradicate all racism. That's impossible.

But to say Ireland is a racist country is absolutely wrong. It's not socially acceptable nor is it legally acceptable and there are protections against it.

sid waddell

Danzy wrote: »

If you are so against racist police brutality why didn't you make it more clear in your post?

What do you think the protestors were protesting about?

I would have thought it was extremely obvious.

Where did the confusion arise on your part?

Because I'm finding it difficult to see where any confusion could arise.

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd have to ask you, what would you constitute a racist problem in Ireland to be? I mean, there certainly are racists. I don't know what you suggest we do to eradicate all racism. That's impossible.

But to say Ireland is a racist country is absolutely wrong. It's not socially acceptable nor is it legally acceptable and there are protections against it.

I hope you don't mind me answering your question with a question.

Do you think there is such a thing as an acceptable level of racism?

Danzy

sid waddell wrote: »

What do you think the protestors were protesting about?

I would have thought it was extremely obvious.

Where did the confusion arise on your part?

Because I'm finding it difficult to see where any confusion could arise.

Are you or are you not against racist police brutality?

It's a yes or no question.

GarIT

sid waddell wrote: »

Again I'm not really sure what point you;re trying to make other than to downgrade racism s a problem. There are some classic racist in denial tropes there.

Sorry for using the r word but I think it's best not to be politically correct - I know you on the right hate political correctness.

Just out of interest, how many black and ethnic minority voices (you can put a numerical figure on it) would you have to hear to make you consider there might be a problem with systemic racism and racist police brutality in the US?

Or a problem with racism in Ireland?

This is the whole problem. Disagree with one element of a statement, not caring about white people's opinions. And then you are Racist, right wing, using racist tropes, etc. No listening or understanding or thinking maybe we should at least listen to white people even if we disagree just you disagree with one tiny point, you're a racist trying to silence BLM.

As for your question on how many voices. None could ever change my opinion, only data can. If there is a compiled study from a reputable university or published in a reputable scientific publication I'll believe it.

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

I hope you don't mind me answering your question with a question.

Do you think there is such a thing as an acceptable level of racism?

That's actually quite a complicated question.

Do I think that if in the pub I overhear a racist joke, should I confront the man or woman who said it? I've made racist jokes in the past. Does that make me a racist?

Personally though, no I don't think it acceptable to be racist on any level, but I am aware that almost everybody is.

You need to take into account different scenarios too. In private company, I would call my friends of different ethnicities names which I would never call them in public as it may cause offense to others who are unaware of the understanding and intent of the verbal exchange.

It's important to recognise that though and anyone who is vocally agressive or physically abusive to anyone in a malicious and purposely offensive way because of their race should be confronted about it.

As a nation, no. I don't think racism should be tolerated.

Hannibal36

sid waddell wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to verbalise there but whatever it is, you haven't demonstrated any imposition of views on you.

I'll be quite up front in saying that I don't take seriously the views of white people who consistently try to diminish racism as a societal problem. That's not an imposition of views.

Why do I not take such views seriously?

Because white people with these views don't have to live it and thus, they haven't a clue what they're talking about.

I think it's very much a form of white privilege for a white person to dismiss or downgrade a major societal problem, ie. racism, which they have no personal experience of suffering from.

To do so means to dismiss black and other ethnic minority voices who say categorically and pretty much unanimously that it is a major problem.

I also consider it an imposition of views. How else would you describe somebody with no lived experience telling people with real, lifelong lived experience that they are wrong?

That's the right in a nutshell. They dismiss the voices of lived experience in favour of their own lack of knowledge (ie. ignorance) and inbuilt prejudice, and also expect and demand society to be shaped in accordance with their ignorance or prejuduce, to the detriment of those who have lived experience of those major societal problems.

My views on the subject would very much be formed by listening to black and other ethnic minority voices, and black and ethnic minority voices on the subject are almost unanimous on the main points of the issue. This also means I try to critically self-examine any inbuilt or unconscious racial prejudice I may have or have had in the past, and if necessary, change or adjust my views by virtue of greater understanding through listening.

That of course doesn't mean that I don't have white privilege myself, but I am very much aware that I have it.

This post sums up a weak White elitist mentality, trying to foist their guilt for having more than they earned or deserved onto everyone else,other than look in the mirror.

You elistists and establishment people are saying no us with all the money and power are not the cause of racism and social inequalities, it is you guys you poor people are the racists and you need to examine your Conscience.

fisgon

GarIT wrote: »

I've just seen a video where a black mother and daughter were threatening and making racist comments against a white couple. The man of the couple escorted his wife into the car, and attempted to reverse out of the parking space to drive away. The mother of the black couple ran to jump behind the car to prevent it from leaving. The white woman then got out of the car and pulled a gun and demanded the black woman move away.

The American media is saying things like "White racist tries to run over black woman and pulls gun on her" The couple have been charged and the man has lost his job. I can only see the couple as the victims in this scenario, I know the woman pulled a gun but she had been threatened and then prevented from leaving, that seems like reasonable force to me.

I'm scared that events like this might come to Ireland. I already feel that sometimes things are decided to be racist because a black person doesn't like it whether it actually is racist or not. If the black person doesn't win in every situation then it's labelled as racist. The point isn't the incident, the point is it seems like there is a race war brewing and a lot of people are on the side of "black people can't be racist".

There is nothing the man could have done better, and he lost his job because a black person decided to get angry and he was white. I don't want to live in a world like that. It's not fully here yet but it feels like it's coming.

I hate racism, I wish it could be ended but I'm also beginning to hate and fear people who use the race card to oppress and get away with things.

This is one incident. It happened to be caught on video, just as practically everything is these days. Whatever about rights and wrongs of it, generalizing from one incident to the idea that "society is falling apart" is not helpful or wise.

Weird, unjust, violent, hateful things have been happening right through human history, they just haven't been caught on camera and publicised.

A lot of these unjust, violent things have happened to people of colour, let's not forget that. And in general, it is not white people suffering racism; black people in Ireland are still being abused or insulted because of the colour of their skin on a regular basis in Ireland; I know because I know a number of black people here.

Of course some people may be tempted to play "the race card", but they are a small minority, and this is not widespread. Racism against black people is a much bigger issue in this country. But we are working this stuff out, we are learning and educating ourselves, adapting. It is going to take us a while.

But let's not lose our sh1t over one incident, or let it take our attention away from what our real issues are.

fisgon

Deleted User wrote: »

I've made racist jokes in the past. Does that make me a racist?
.

Emm, if you would continue to make them now, then yeah, it kind of does.

sid waddell

GarIT wrote: »

This is the whole problem. Disagree with one element of a statement, not caring about white people's opinions. And then you are Racist, right wing, using racist tropes, etc. No listening or understanding or thinking maybe we should at least listen to white people even if we disagree just you disagree with one tiny point, you're a racist trying to silence BLM.

As for your question on how many voices. None could ever change my opinion, only data can. If there is a compiled study from a reputable university or published in a reputable scientific publication I'll believe it.

But you see I'm actually explaining why I come to my views and why there are very good reasons to do so.

Demanding political correctness to protect people's feelings is not debate, it's shutting down debate.

There's a very good reason to disregard certain people's opinions, ie. the opinions of white people who consistently dismiss or downplay racism as an issue.

It's because they're commenting from an ivory tower within the ethnic group which is not suffering from such racism, devoid of lived experience, and have made either little or no effort to listen to voices that actually have lived experience of racism.

If I rocked up to Anfield and told Jurgen Klopp or Mo Salah that they were doing things wrong, I wouldn't expect to be taken seriously.

If I waltzed into Oxford and told the scientists testing a vaccine they didn't know what they were doing, I wouldn't get far.

It isn't white people we should be taking our views from on an issue which doesn't affect them. It's black and ethnic minority people who actually know what they're talking about. They live it, white people don't.

Same as during the 8th Amendment referendum, women's voices were the ones to listen to, because the 8th Amendment affected women and potentially turned them into vessels, not men.

sid waddell

Hannibal36 wrote: »

This post sums up a weak White elitist mentality, trying to foist their guilt for having more than they earned or deserved onto everyone else,other than look in the mirror.

You elistists and establishment people are saying no us with all the money and power are not the cause of racism and social inequalities, it is you guys you poor people are the racists and you need to examine your Conscience.

What is a "weak white elitist mentality"?

Could you explain?

I'm a full time carer. I get €219 a week.

But yet you claim I am "the elite with all the money and power"!

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

That's actually quite a complicated question.

Do I think that if in the pub I overhear a racist joke, should I confront the man or woman who said it? I've made racist jokes in the past. Does that make me a racist?

Personally though, no I don't think it acceptable to be racist on any level, but I am aware that almost everybody is.

You need to take into account different scenarios too. In private company, I would call my friends of different ethnicities names which I would never call them in public as it may cause offense to others who are unaware of the understanding and intent of the verbal exchange.

It's important to recognise that though and anyone who is vocally agressive or physically abusive to anyone in a malicious and purposely offensive way because of their race should be confronted about it.

As a nation, no. I don't think racism should be tolerated.

Good. That's a start.

fisgon

fisgon wrote: »

Emm, if you would continue to make them now, then yeah, it kind of does.

Really? If I made what YOU would consider a racist joke towards my Asian friend who knows the intent, that would make me a racist?

Who gets to decide?

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

Good. That's a start.

Sadly though Sid, we need to work on your racism. Making assumptions about people based on their skin colour alone is not cool

sid waddell

Danzy wrote: »

Are you or are you not against racist police brutality?

It's a yes or no question.

Em, obviously I am against it.

Did my posts not make that very clear?

Are you?

Otherwise, why would you object to the protests in America?

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

Same as during the 8th Amendment referendum, women's voices were the ones to listen to, because the 8th Amendment affected women and potentially turned them into vessels, not men.

Careful their Sid. May come across as transphobic there. You left out the word cis.

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

Sadly though Sid, we need to work on your racism. Making assumptions about people based on their skin colour alone is not cool

Ah, you're doing that bad faith thing that right wingers love to do so much where you start off complaining about people being called a racist for being racist and then turning around and calling others a racist for no reason!

I was wondering what that was coming!

GarIT

sid waddell wrote: »

But you see I'm actually explaining why I come to my views and why there are very good reasons to do so.

Demanding political correctness to protect people's feelings is not debate, it's shutting down debate.

There's a very good reason to disregard certain people's opinions, ie. the opinions of white people who consistently dismiss or downplay racism as an issue.

It's because they're commenting from an ivory tower within the ethnic group which is not suffering from such racism, devoid of lived experience, and have made either little or no effort to listen to voices that actually have lived experience of racism.

If I rocked up to Anfield and told Jurgen Klopp or Mo Salah that they were doing things wrong, I wouldn't expect to be taken seriously.

If I waltzed into Oxford and told the scientists testing a vaccine they didn't know what they were doing, I wouldn't get far.

It isn't white people we should be taking our views from on an issue which doesn't affect them. It's black and ethnic minority people who actually know what they're talking about. They live it, white people don't.

Same as during the 8th Amendment referendum, women's voices were the ones to listen to, because the 8th Amendment affected women and potentially turned them into vessels, not men.

The way I see it is that you are demanding political correctness and shutting down debate.

Not having experienced racism (personally I have) isn't a reason not to listen them when you are debating how to restructure society. Promoting changes to fix a problem for one group where the changes affect many groups won't go down well if you refuse to engage with those it affects. We need input from all stakeholders.

I disagree on your view on the 8th, father's are a stakeholder in abortion. They may not be the most important factor but need to be heard.

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

Careful their Sid. May come across as transphobic there. You left out the word cis.

You see when you do this you only show up the paucity of your own debating techniques.

Right-wingers so often descend to such tactics when they're outpointed.

Sweetemotion

sid waddell wrote: »

What is a "weak white elitist mentality"?

Could you explain?

I'm a full time carer. I get €219 a week.

But yet you claim I am "the elite with all the money and power"!

A full time carer poc would also receive €219 a week.


Both of you with no money or power but you feel the need to speak up for poc.

iebamm2580

Ireland has racists just like every country on this planet, ireland however is not racist as in systemically because i dont ever remember us coming up with strictures when we got independence to oppress black people that weren't even here Makes no sense to bring american politics to Ireland. People saying ireland is racist for not having birth right citizenship, well if that is the case nearly every country in the world including nearly all african nations must be racist too. Direct provison is racist when again people from all nationalities are treated the same. Racism will always be there between humans and most of us no its wrong but expecting irish people to believe we are inherently racist when we ourselves were oppressed is beyond ridiculous. North Africans came here in the 1600s (baltimore)and made irish people slaves ffs.

Danzy

sid waddell wrote: »

You see when you do this you only show up the paucity of your own debating techniques.

Right-wingers so often descend to such tactics when they're outpointed.

You are obsessed with calling people right wingers.

sid waddell

GarIT wrote: »

The way I see it is that you are demanding political correctness and ****ting down debate.

Not having experienced racism (personally I have) isn't a reason not to listen them when you are debating how to restructure society. Promoting changes to fix a problem for one group where the changes affect many groups won't go down well. We need input from all stakeholders.

I disagree on your view on the 8th, father's are a stakeholder in abortion. They may not be the most important factor but need to be heard.

I'm doing the very opposite, I'm self-consciously avoiding political correctness.

If people do not make good faith efforts to acquaint themselves with an issue, why should they be taken seriously?

If people don't acknowledge there's a problem, how can they fix it?

Fathers don't carry children.

Why should a man be able to tell a woman that she has to carry a pregnancy to term against her will?

We had the arguments on this two years ago and the Yes side won both the arguments and the referendum comprehensively.

And you don't have to like abortion to see that.

sid waddell

Danzy wrote: »

You are obsessed with calling people right wingers.

If people consistently advance right-wing viewpoints, they are right-wing.

You seem to be advocating for an extreme form of political correctness to avoid you suffering offence.

I thought that was what you were against?

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

You see when you do this you only show up the paucity of your own debating techniques.

Right-wingers so often descend to such tactics when they're outpointed.

It's not a game or a fight for me so I don't feel outpointed.

And people in glass houses Sid. You did indeed think it was a good idea to do a "parody" thread highlighting what you think right wing people think and that showed you considere all right wingers to be horrible people.

I have no problem discussing anything with anyone as long as there is honesty and genuine debate.

You seem to be obsessed with scoring points.

I'm too old and lack the inclination or the desire to play your petty games which you seem to need to ease your perceived guilt of having white privilege.

You keep fighting your good fight, I'll continue not judging people on their skin colour like the horrific right winger I am.

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

Ah, you're doing that bad faith thing that right wingers love to do so much where you start off complaining about people being called a racist for being racist and then turning around and calling others a racist for no reason!

I was wondering what that was coming!

Nothing bad faith about it. Judging people on their skin colour is a horrible thing to do. Doesn't matter what colour it is. It is absolutely the definition of racism

GarIT

sid waddell wrote: »

I'm doing the very opposite, I'm self-consciously avoiding political correctness.

If people do not make good faith efforts to acquaint themselves with an issue, why should they be taken seriously?

If people don't acknowledge there's a problem, how can they fix it?

Fathers don't carry children.

Why should a man be able to tell a woman that she has to carry a pregnancy to term against her will?

We had the arguments on this two years ago and the Yes side won both the arguments and the referendum comprehensively.

And you don't have to like abortion to see that.

I think on the first point we are differing on people who want to engage but may disagree on some points vs completely unwilling people.


Your making up strawmen here. I never said anything like that.



The actual underlying question behind abortion was "Do you beleive abortion to be murder or not?" and "Are the pros worth the cons?" that's something everyone can aswer. All of society gets to vote, at least for now. Silencing one part of society is causing all of the issues I have been discussing. If only women can be listened to about how abortion affects them and if only black people can be listened to about how any racism policies affect them we will never progress.

https://youtu.be/9J05_5y139I