The real scandal here is that the young and low income earners pay very little in tax

suicide_circus

Removing that many people from the tax net is a fundamentally unsound practice. Everyone should pay something.

ZeroThreat

Technocentral wrote: »

It's not about income tax though, it's an opportunity to complain about "the left" ie presumably the people in FF and FG who have set the tax rates in Ireland.

Would I be going out on a limb here to guess that Fred is a Brexit and Trump supporter??

Idbatterim

This has been written about often . Its idiocy to have such a huge number contributing virtually nothing in income related taxes. As a consequence then of having as good as no lpt, no water charges , as good as free motor tax. Someone has to pick up the pieces.

Haning a marginal tax rate of fifty percent over the pittance of a threshold, is absolutel idiocy. Many people will not work extra hours etc if losing half the pay... they have themselves in a right pickle here... a total idiotic taxation system, which is problematic, but not one party being even close to doing something about it out of cowardice...

Of course the rip off housing situation needs addressing too for all workers... but I'd say we must be unique on earth for the idiocy of having huge amounts pay in nothing in employment taxes and endless supports for some , pretty much all of which came about because of a spectacular boom and reckless short term decision, idiot politicians....

Morrisp

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Recent Exchequer figures show Income tax revenue actually ROSE in first half of year compared with 2019.



How can this be? - Well because the vast majority of those losing their jobs due to COVID-19 pay little or no income tax.



25% of workers pay around 80% of all income tax. How can we have a proper democracy if really only 25% are paying towards it?



A person earning €20k in Germany pays around €4k in income tax/PRSI. In Ireland that same person pays less than €1k. How do the left try to justify this with a straight face? Are Irish people special that they should pay little or nothing compared with similar earners on the continent? And still demand the same public services?



If the young and low earners who voted for SF in droves at the last election really do want better public services and cheaper/free houses, then they can pay for it through higher taxes on lower incomes.

You seem rather out touch fred in how things work . I think you need to educate yourself a lot more before post utter silly posts like this , makes yourself looking out of touch and rather silly

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

thats it, the flat tax model works wonderfully, 22% on everything from 1 euro to 1 billion euro , would be a far fairer system.

Renua suggested this , git backlash from many of the public... watched a video of theirs after they changed this policy and they said in a polite way, the public at large are too stupid to understand it.

" why should someone better off than me pay the same rate if tax " it's a flat rate you idiots! Bit that's what you are up against...

Eric Cartman

Idbatterim wrote: »

Renua suggested this , git backlash from many of the public... watched a video of theirs after they changed this policy and they said in a polite way, the public at large are too stupid to understand it.

" why should someone better off than me pay the same rate if tax " it's a flat rate you idiots! Bit that's what you are up against...

to be fair, renuas downfall was the abortion debate. There is ample space in Irish politics for a fiscally Conservative party that cuts taxes / levels off taxes in a fairer way, they just have to avoid the big ol catholic sand-trap..... one which none of them seem to have done to date.

Akesh

No, the real scandal is corporation tax @ 12.5% and anyone non-resident in Ireland being able to remove wealth from an Irish entity without paying a red cent in tax.

Income tax in Ireland is far too high for the level of services we receive.

Multinational corporations provide a lot of jobs but pay very little effective tax when all the profits are washed away with phony administration and management charges. While it is good for the people employed and the income tax paid on behalf of these employees is good, the overall impact is far more negative to the economy when you factor in other issues such as the level of importation of foreign workers in multinationals and the fact that multinationals only want to be based in already high density environments, which creates additional pressure in Irish cities and the lack of tax being paid by the company.

The current economy works for nobody except the rich and those who contribute absolutely nothing to the exchequer.

Diverboy

suicide_circus wrote: »

Removing that many people from the tax net is a fundamentally unsound practice. Everyone should pay something.

Earlier in my career I lived in continental Europe for a number of years earning a relatively modest income (~21k pa). I paid an effective tax rate of about 9% on my income, as did many of my friends.

We received a tax bill at the end of the year for which we would be required to set aside income during the year. The concept that everyone was part of society and everyone contributed something worked well. It made each of us value the public services we received/were entitled to more so than if we paid nothing.

While taxing someone on a 21k pa income at 20% is excessive in my opinion there are many numbers between 0 and 20 that would work. Unfortunately it's unlikely to be implemented by any political party in this country.

suicide_circus

Yep totally agree.

Complaining about the quality of services while simultaneously removing large swathes of the workforce from the tax base is pure stupidity.

antimatterx

suicide_circus wrote: »

Removing that many people from the tax net is a fundamentally unsound practice. Everyone should pay something.

More important, everyone should pay something from their wages. I hate the counter argument of "but they pay VAT when they spend their money". So does everyone else.

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

to be fair, renuas downfall was the abortion debate. There is ample space in Irish politics for a fiscally Conservative party that cuts taxes / levels off taxes in a fairer way, they just have to avoid the big ol catholic sand-trap..... one which none of them seem to have done to date.

I agree. The abortion grey area and a single issue robbing of us of a voice many of us want, on far clearer cut issues is a tragedy !

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

antimatterx wrote: »

More important, everyone should pay something from their wages. I hate the counter argument of "but they pay VAT when they spend their money". So does everyone else.

It’s not stupid. More employment tax paid means less consumer spending so the VAT take will go down. If the VAT take reduces by the amount the employment tax take rises by (that would be a bit of guesswork but I’m sure somebody has analysed it) it’s a pointless move, if the goal is bring in more tax revenue.

If the goal is based on more nebulous notions of fairness, then maybe you might consider it worth it. I don’t know.

Eric Cartman

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It’s not stupid. More employment tax paid means less consumer spending so the VAT take will go down. If the VAT take reduces by the amount the employment tax take rises by (that would be a bit of guesswork but I’m sure somebody has analysed it) it’s a pointless move, if the goal is bring in more tax revenue.

If the goal is based on more nebulous notions of fairness, then maybe you might consider it worth it. I don’t know.

Relying on VAT over income tax just leaves those remunerating money to foreign countries and discourages people from buying from local business.

If you have say a polish couple, Builder and a cleaner , household income total say 38k , under the current model they order a lot of things from Poland because its cheaper and they're sending back half their take-home to build a nice house back there. They are contributing almost nothing to the Irish economy, they're not taking from it but not contributing much either.

If they had to pay 20% income tax across the lot and vat was 10% they'd be more likely to spend here (as polish vat is 23% too) and no matter what they sent home, the Irish state got a 20% cut.

its a smarter solution to even out the tax base so half the workforce actually start paying , and gets some money from those sending money abroad.

James Brown

Looking to the sick, old and mystery undefined group of welfare Ninjas who don't want to work is never going to change anything.
There is a reason FF/FG have us in the system we have. They are not bullied by 'the left' on anything. If they bow to ideas based on trying to cadge votes, that's still on them. However doesn't seem to effect their policies elsewhere.
Therefore what we have is what FF/FG designed and think we should have. The question is why? It must be handy for FF/FG to create and maintain these things and have people blame 'the left' and scanger of the week as featured in the Indo.

The majority are working tax payers. The numbers of these people requiring tax funded state aid to function is growing. This is the problem.

Mongfinder General

Bowie wrote: »

Looking to the sick, old and mystery undefined group of welfare Ninjas who don't want to work is never going to change anything.
There is a reason FF/FG have us in the system we have. They are not bullied by 'the left' on anything. If they bow to ideas based on trying to cadge votes, that's still on them. However doesn't seem to effect their policies elsewhere.
Therefore what we have is what FF/FG designed and think we should have. The question is why? It must be handy for FF/FG to create and maintain these things and have people blame 'the left' and scanger of the week as featured in the Indo.

The majority are working tax payers. The numbers of these people requiring tax funded state aid to function is growing. This is the problem.

Hence the term - ineptocracy.

RandomViewer

suicide_circus wrote: »

Removing that many people from the tax net is a fundamentally unsound practice. Everyone should pay something.

Everyone does,

RandomViewer

Geuze wrote: »

Eric Cartman was, I believe, referring to the high rate of economic inactivity in Ireland, i.e. the high rate of joblessness.

5 % close to full employment, and when you break that down and remove certain groups it's even lower

RandomViewer

Geuze wrote: »

Note that joblessness is far wider than unemployment.

Joblessness refers to people typically aged 24-65.

We lead Europe in joblessness.


The employment rate in Ireland is average, maybe a bit above average, but not very high.

Some people earn enough so their spouse doesn't have to work, why so sore?

RandomViewer

Eric Cartman wrote: »

what I meant was that we have plenty of people here who are perfectly capable of working who don't work at all.

Half of actual jobs aren't real jobs, lots of grants to employ more people than you need. Also there is huge dead wood in many companies and public services, reality is if we went mad on for efficiency in every area we would lower the workforce down to less than a million,

RandomViewer

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Relying on VAT over income tax just leaves those remunerating money to foreign countries and discourages people from buying from local business.

If you have say a polish couple, Builder and a cleaner , household income total say 38k , under the current model they order a lot of things from Poland because its cheaper and they're sending back half their take-home to build a nice house back there. They are contributing almost nothing to the Irish economy, they're not taking from it but not contributing much either.

If they had to pay 20% income tax across the lot and vat was 10% they'd be more likely to spend here (as polish vat is 23% too) and no matter what they sent home, the Irish state got a 20% cut.

its a smarter solution to even out the tax base so half the workforce actually start paying , and gets some money from those sending money abroad.

xenophobic rubbish, Polish people all have cars, rent or own houses here and are as fond of gadgets and white goods as anyone else, do you actually know any Poles or are you just running on stereotype dung from the likes of Gemma

Eric Cartman

RandomViewer wrote: »

xenophobic rubbish, Polish people all have cars, rent or own houses here and are as fond of gadgets and white goods as anyone else, do you actually know any Poles or are you just running on stereotype dung from the likes of Gemma

its not a stereotype or common amongst them all, its just an example.
if there was any group id say of whom the 'majority' do it it would be the Brazilians or the Romanians

In 2017 there was almost 800 million sent 'home' by foreign nationals working and for the most part paying very little in taxation. Wouldn't it be nice if the Irish state kept some of that money here.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/migrants-sent-785m-home-to-their-families-886927.html

Eric Cartman

RandomViewer wrote: »

Half of actual jobs aren't real jobs, lots of grants to employ more people than you need. Also there is huge dead wood in many companies and public services, reality is if we went mad on for efficiency in every area we would lower the workforce down to less than a million,

I would love to see those stats. Outside of the civil service theres very little overhead for these 'fake jobs'

HamSarris

20% of earners paying 80% of tax shocks online poster who’s never heard of the pareto principle

The only point of taxing low paid healthcare assistants, hotel workers etc. is to make the poor poorer in order to make the middle class feel more smug.

I'm going to print that opening post out, frame it, and hang it beside my copy of Poblacht na hÉireann.

"Pay more tax and then turn to the State to make ends meet."

Belter.

suicide_circus

HamSarris wrote: »

20% of earners paying 80% of tax shocks online poster who’s never heard of the pareto principle

The only point of taxing low paid healthcare assistants, hotel workers etc. is to make the poor poorer in order to make the middle class feel more smug.

so would you say that any society in which everyone pays income tax will be notable for the smugness of its middle class?

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Relying on VAT over income tax just leaves those remunerating money to foreign countries and discourages people from buying from local business.

There's a bigger issue. People stop spending during periods of recession and other concerns. It's a big problem for a variety of Gulf states whose revenue is heavily invested in their public buying products, with the government making their revenue off the VAT. But with the oil crisis and Covid, people aren't spending as much on products which has drastically decreased their revenues (on top of the losses in oil sales)

Relying too much on VAT is dangerous because there are just too many times when people stop spending money past their immediate needs, and higher vat intake is usually due to the taxes on "luxuries"/"wants".

I don't think the migrants from Europe are a real issue since they are likely to spend quite a bit of their incomes here, in addition to sending money home.

Fred Cryton

HamSarris wrote: »

20% of earners paying 80% of tax shocks online poster who’s never heard of the pareto principle

The only point of taxing low paid healthcare assistants, hotel workers etc. is to make the poor poorer in order to make the middle class feel more smug.

Explain why German taxes are so high on lower earners then. The Germans are wrong, but the Irish left are right?....hahaha thanks for the laugh.

Fred Cryton

antimatterx wrote: »

More important, everyone should pay something from their wages. I hate the counter argument of "but they pay VAT when they spend their money". So does everyone else.

Yep, it's a very childish argument. Everyone in every country pays VAT on goods. But the Irish left think they should get away with paying nothing on their income while demanding fantastic public services paid for by someone else. Childish is indeed the right word.

suicide_circus

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Explain why German taxes are so high on lower earners then. The Germans are wrong, but the Irish left are right?....hahaha thanks for the laugh.

Germany is well known for its smug middle class laughing at the poor

RandomViewer

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Explain why German taxes are so high on lower earners then. The Germans are wrong, but the Irish left are right?....hahaha thanks for the laugh.

Posted link earlier but seeing its you you probably ignored it. German living costs are much lower so the disposable income of the Germans is probably more, instead of preaching about making poor people poorer work on making Ireland a cheaper place to live