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More from Roderic O'Gorman (MOD NOTE IN OPENING POST)

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    #302
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    When I was going up I was obsessed about things. I saw my sister obsessed about things more than I. I had a thing about the way I styled my hair. It had to be just so and was very self conscious about it when in school and in public. My sister would get obsessed about a certain pop group just for one thing. Multiple posters of the same group on her wall, a few stickers of same on her school bag. Y
    ou see young adults get obsessed about things all the time. Whether it be tattoos, or getting totally obsessed about football or whatever. I even see people in my demographic being totally obsessed about being gay. Rainbow flags on every twitter/facebook post, never missing a pride event, only going on gay destination holidays, all that sorta thing.

    One of they joys of getting older is most ppl grow out of that sorta one track mind / obsessive mentality. I find myself being interested in things which are far removed from what I was interested in when I was younger. I couldn't care less about being anywhere near a 'vibrant' gay scene when once upon a time I was out 3 times a week on it and if it wasn't for work I'd have gone out more.

    I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. I don't think that the law should be facilitating kids making decisions like this under 18, which is the same age for lots of other legal stuff. They are just not mature enough. I don't see much legal importance for it either if passports and the like is 'just' what it's all about. I really don't blame ppl for the thinking the government have an agenda to get ppl to change their gender as quickly as possible rather than as slowly as possible which Is the way I think it should be. The optics of it gives the impression there are those who want young people to subscribe to libertarian lefty politics, in a opportunistic move. In fact, imo that's where the whole LGBT+ term comes from - get all of these people together and make them all one homogeneous group (a single entity rather than a diverse one in effect, ironically) thereby increasing their politician weight.

    On a different tack, but I think relevant, personally I have never met a transgender person in my life. Knowingly anyway. The gay scene I frequented, the bars the clubs, were full of men only. Some of the bars had men only policy. Most gay bars/clubs I seen in the listings and frequented were like this. There were virtually no lesbians in them either, no mind transgender. There might be the odd lesbian night set aside to cater for them and I suppose they have their own bars but much fewer in number than men bars. Seen drag queens and cross dressers, yes, occasionally. Still men though. Point being I have, and neither do most gay men, have any direct natural connection with transgender people. Further than that what gay men want and transgender people want bare no similarity to each other whatsoever, other than to say we want rights. But everyone wants right's. I have no more insight to the transgender cause than does anyone else who isn't transgender. Virtually everything I know comes from this forum. Yet, I am told that transgender activists have some insight/connection with my cause/needs, have worked to sort that out (historically), that I should be grateful and fight for their cause in return. That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Two causes completely disjointed working as one. The term LGBT+ to me reads as Lefty/Gay/Bisexual/Trans/+, and I don't think there is a single thing 'inclusionary' about it if you're not fully on board with the L, as a former Wimbledon champion would testify. Splintering of activism, of which I have never gotten involved in myself, is here to stay imo.


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    #303
    wildeside
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭wildeside


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Again, what are you on about? You seem to be caught up in being fearful of something that isn't happening.
    https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/community/138273/scotland-will-become-the-first-country-in-the-world-to-add-lgbtq-history-to-school-curriculum/

    You know trans activism is a thing don't you? And that activists naturally have an agenda? And that agenda might just involve getting into schools and spreading highly dubious and potentially (very) harmful claims about sex, gender and identity? (I'm specifically calling out the core transgenderism claim as problematic, not anything regarding LGB)


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    #304
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    wildeside wrote: »
    I said I would have a conversation with my primary age school kid if they came home and told me one of their class mates said they were transgender.

    You intimated that a not insignificant [not your words] number of parents would not have such a conversation with their child.

    Now you don't know that, you can't make that claim. You're just wildly speculating.

    But I'll grant you that 'some' parents may not discuss it in-depth, maybe even just brush it off, dismiss it or handle it as they otherwise see fit.

    Furthermore, I do not see what right a school has (particularly primary level) to bring in an "outside speaker" to speak on such a highly contentious issue let alone tell my child what he/she should think about it. What makes you think the school has such a right?

    Eh have you not heard about schools bringing in religious groups to do sex education
    https://jrnl.ie/5034268

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #305
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    The one thing I remember from sex education in 6th class was sex within "the framework of marriage" being harped on about it over and over again


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    #306
    wildeside
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭wildeside


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Eh have you not heard about schools bringing in religious groups to do sex education
    https://jrnl.ie/5034268


    Yes I would have a problem with that. Would you have a problem with outside speakers coming into primary schools to discuss transgenderism?


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    #307
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If anyone ever claims slippery slope arguments should be disregarded I think they can be dismissed out of hand.


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    #308
    paw patrol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    These are schools where they have to bring in outside speakers to cover basic facts on sexuality, because they know that a fair proportion of parents can't or won't educate their kids on these matters.


    you may think this, it's probably not true - i can only go on my peers.
    But the big problem is that morality including sexuality should be the taught by the parent and not the school. I understand the basic science aspect by taught in school but the other stuff - thats my responsibility as a father.


    Because some parent may fail to do this , is not a reason for my kids (or the rest) to be taught a load of gobble-di-gook by some numpty.


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    #309
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    paw patrol wrote: »
    you may think this, it's probably not true - i can only go on my peers.
    But the big problem is that morality including sexuality should be the taught by the parent and not the school. I understand the basic science aspect by taught in school but the other stuff - thats my responsibility as a father.


    Because some parent may fail to do this , is not a reason for my kids (or the rest) to be taught a load of gobble-di-gook by some numpty.

    This. The responsibility of sex education lies with parents, not some NUIG graduate with pink hair and pronouns in their Twitter bio.


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    #310
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,600 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If anyone ever claims slippery slope arguments should be disregarded I think they can be dismissed out of hand.

    I know people mention slippery slopes, etc.
    Something I wondered about is. When Ireland legalised homosexuality in 1993 was there any talk about same sex marriage/gay adoptions or were people told that might happen or never happened/don’t try and scare people.

    Jut to not I’ve no issue with gay marriage, adoption, etc.


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    #311
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    keano_afc wrote: »
    This. The responsibility of sex education lies with parents, not some NUIG graduate with pink hair and pronouns in their Twitter bio.

    So definitely no outsiders coming in for sex education then?

    https://www.accord.ie/services/schools-programmes/dublin-schools-programme

    Or is it just the pronouns and the blue hair that bugs you?


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    #312
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    wildeside wrote: »
    Yes I would have a problem with that. Would you have a problem with outside speakers coming into primary schools to discuss transgenderism?

    No.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #313
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    I know people mention slippery slopes, etc.
    Something I wondered about is. When Ireland legalised homosexuality in 1993 was there any talk about same sex marriage/gay adoptions or were people told that might happen or never happened/don’t try and scare people.

    Jut to not I’ve no issue with gay marriage, adoption, etc.

    Yes

    Divorce, Condoms, Abortion and Gay Marriage were all bought up in 1993


    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1993-06-23/26/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #314
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    keano_afc wrote: »
    This. The responsibility of sex education lies with parents, not some NUIG graduate with pink hair and pronouns in their Twitter bio.

    Ah fook it NUIG/UCG has gone to hell.
    No fookers with pink hair in my day.
    Now jet black hair ala Robert Smith of The Cure yes.
    Oh and lots of ginger :o
    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    wildeside wrote: »
    Yes I would have a problem with that. Would you have a problem with outside speakers coming into primary schools to discuss transgenderism?

    No.

    I'd bet you a halting site full of rubbish that you would if it was one of Justin Barratt's followers ;)

    I am not allowed discuss …



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    #315
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    jmayo wrote: »

    I'd bet you a halting site full of rubbish that you would if it was one of Justin Barratt's followers ;)

    Why would anyone want fascist scum preaching at kids?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #316
    oyvey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭oyvey


    wildeside wrote: »
    Yes I would have a problem with that. Would you have a problem with outside speakers coming into primary schools to discuss transgenderism?

    I would. And that's without a shred of phobia towards LGBTQ people.


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    #317
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    So basically you suggest trans people cant and shouldnt have any legal recognition of their status?

    Legal recognition of their preferred gender but not their sex.

    Sex has a huge role to play in scatistics, public health epidemiology and cancer screening.


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    #318
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    oyvey wrote: »
    I would. And that's without a shred of phobia towards LGBTQ people.

    Why? I'm wondering?


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    #319
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Apparently we voted for change.
    Hey presto, literally the law for that is to be brought in...


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    #320
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rodin wrote: »
    Legal recognition of their preferred gender but not their sex.

    Sex has a huge role to play in scatistics, public health epidemiology and cancer screening.

    Drunk Monkey suggests that trans people should not be legally recognised in their preferred gender just because. This isnt possible as Ireland was found in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights for not doing so and was forced to legislate.

    I'm not sure why peoole are getting so hung up on statistics given that we are talking about 420 people out of 4.75 Million.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #321
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,215 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Without going down this rabbit hole again, I'm not anti trans, I juat don't think we should change the world for 420 people the other 4.75 million are happy with reality.
    Gender and Sex are one, feelings are changeable.


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    #322
    Brian Hartman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 78 ✭✭Brian Hartman


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Without going down this rabbit hole again, I'm not anti trans, I juat don't think we should change the world for 420 people the other 4.75 million are happy with reality.
    Gender and Sex are one, feelings are changeable.

    Chromosomes, don't you just hate them?


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    #323
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Without going down this rabbit hole again, I'm not anti trans, I juat don't think we should change the world for 420 people
    What problems does recognising people who have changed their gender cause for you?


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    #324
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Without going down this rabbit hole again, I'm not anti trans, I juat don't think we should change the world for 420 people the other 4.75 million are happy with reality.
    Gender and Sex are one, feelings are changeable.

    You're not anti trans - you dont want them to be legally recognised or have their human rights. Yeah. That doesnt stand up as "not anti trans"

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #325
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,215 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    You're not anti trans - you dont want them to be legally recognised or have their human rights. Yeah. That doesnt stand up as "not anti trans"

    They have the exact same rights as everyone else. Anti-trans would suggest you don't like trans people that's not the case, do I agree with redefining what a male/female or man/woman is, no.
    All you need to do is spend 5 minutes on YouTube to realise this is a mental health issue not a human rights one. People are getting completely screwed up both mentally and physically buying into this idea you can transition from one sex to another, it's not possible, can't happen. If it can't happen in the real world it shouldn't be possible legally.


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    #326
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    They have the exact same rights as everyone else. Anti-trans would suggest you don't like trans people that's not the case, do I agree with redefining what a male/female or man/woman is, no.
    All you need to do is spend 5 minutes on YouTube to realise this is a mental health issue not a human rights one. People are getting completely screwed up both mentally and physically buying into this idea you can transition from one sex to another, it's not possible, can't happen. If it can't happen in the real world it shouldn't be possible legally.

    Basically you are saying pre 2015 trans people in Ireland had all of their human rights recocgnised. This is simply untrue. You are making stuff up.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #327
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,215 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Basically you are saying pre 2015 trans people in Ireland had all of their human rights recocgnised. This is simply untrue. You are making stuff up.

    That's not what I said, I'm saying they have all the rights another male or female have. Should they have the right to choose their own sex, absolutely not, sex isn't something you can change.


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    #328
    Brian Hartman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 78 ✭✭Brian Hartman


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    What problems does recognising people who have changed their gender cause for you?

    I will never accept you can change your sex.


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    #329
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,215 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    What problems does recognising people who have changed their gender cause for you?

    Explain it to me like i'm 6. Here son in the right corner we have an all natural woman in her birthday suit and in the left corner we also have a woman, but daddy why does that woman have man bits. See son some people don't identity with their own sex and choose to be the opposite sex to their bilogical sex.
    Daddy I want to be a woman...but son:confused:


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    #330
    Brian Hartman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 78 ✭✭Brian Hartman


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Explain it to me like i'm 6. Here son in the right corner we have an all natural woman in her birthday suit and in the left corner we also have a woman, but daddy why does that woman have man bits. See son some people don't identity with their own sex and choose to be the opposite sex to their bilogical sex.
    Daddy I want to be a woman...but son:confused:

    Next scene: you are arrested for hate-thought and social services are called in to remove your children from you.


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    #331
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Brian Hartman wrote: »
    I will never accept you can change your sex.
    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Explain it to me like i'm 6. Here son in the right corner we have an all natural woman in her birthday suit and in the left corner we also have a woman, but daddy why does that woman have man bits. See son some people don't identity with their own sex and choose to be the opposite sex to their bilogical sex.
    Daddy I want to be a woman...but son:confused:

    Both of you seem to be answering a different question. Just to remind you, the question I asked was 'What problems does recognising people who have changed their gender cause for you?'.

    I can only assume therefore that the answer is 'no problems'.


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