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More from Roderic O'Gorman (MOD NOTE IN OPENING POST)

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    #332
    Brian Hartman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 78 ✭✭Brian Hartman


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Both of you seem to be answering a different question. Just to remind you, the question I asked was 'What problems does recognising people who have changed their gender cause for you?'.

    I can only assume therefore that the answer is 'no problems'.

    The problem is being told accept 2+2=5. And I do not accept transgenders being allowed in to women's spaces.


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    #333
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Brian Hartman wrote: »
    The problem is being told accept 2+2=5.
    Still not answering the question as to what problem it causes for you - so it looks like there is no impact on your life.
    Brian Hartman wrote: »
    And I do not accept transgenders being allowed in to women's spaces.
    Legislation has no impact on this. If you can do a good job at dressing, make-up, you'll be 'allowed in' to women's spaces, regardless of what legislation is there. Unless you're suggesting that there are ID checks at every toilet and every changing room?


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    #334
    Brian Hartman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 78 ✭✭Brian Hartman


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Still not answering the question as to what problem it causes for you - so it looks like there is no impact on your life.


    Legislation has no impact on this. If you can do a good job at dressing, make-up, you'll be 'allowed in' to women's spaces, regardless of what legislation is there. Unless you're suggesting that there are ID checks at every toilet and every changing room?

    No you won't be allowed into women's spaces just because you're a bloke in a dress.

    You're a man, you don't have to worry about sexual violence. Women don't have that luxury.


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    #335
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Brian Hartman wrote: »
    No you won't be allowed into women's spaces just because you're a bloke in a dress.

    Is there security checks on any of these women's spaces? Who's going to stop a transgender person from going in? And who's going to stop a man from going in?
    Brian Hartman wrote: »
    You're a man, you don't have to worry about sexual violence. Women don't have that luxury.
    That's factually untrue, and I have been sexually assaulted in the past.


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    #336
    Brian Hartman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 78 ✭✭Brian Hartman


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Is there security checks on any of these women's spaces? Who's going to stop a transgender person from going in? And who's going to stop a man from going in?


    That's factually untrue, and I have been sexually assaulted in the past.

    Women will stop men from entering their spaces. People are not going to accept this gender neutral crap.

    Most men don't worry about sexual violence but they know full well there are dangerous men out there who will abuse these idiot self ID laws.


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    #337
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,215 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Both of you seem to be answering a different question. Just to remind you, the question I asked was 'What problems does recognising people who have changed their gender cause for you?'.

    I can only assume therefore that the answer is 'no problems'.

    No your confused about sex/gender it's why you don't understand us. I'm 100% positive a man is a man and a woman is a woman. Your trying to make us eat chocolate chip icecream when we know right well it's strawberry ice cream as there's nothing only a pair of strawberries and some vanilla ice cream in the bowl.
    There's a multitude of problems it brings, I'll ask you again explain it to me like I'm 6 so I can try and understand as I can't get my head around trans lobbyists infatuation with changing reality for people with no mental health issues.


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    #338
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Brian Hartman wrote: »
    Women will stop men from entering their spaces.

    So how are these women going to recognise transgender women?

    Brian Hartman wrote: »
    People are going to accept this gender neutral
    Yes, I agree.
    Brian Hartman wrote: »
    Most men don't worry about sexual violence but they know full well there are dangerous men out there who will abuse these idiot self ID laws.

    The vast majority of dangerous men out there won't be abusing self-ID. The vast majority of dangerous men will be dangerous anyway - in the home, in the workplace, in the pub, on the walk home. They don't need to change gender to get access to women.

    Have there been many dangers arsing in Ireland in the five or so years of self-id?


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    #339
    Tokyo
    Registered Users Posts: 22,655 ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    Mod: thread has gone ridiculously off topic at this stage. If you wish to continue the above line of discussion, please do so elsewhere.


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    #340
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,215 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Have there been many dangers arsing in Ireland in the five or so years of self-id?

    This is a UK case but we've had the same thing here I'm just not I reserach mode https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/a-predator-and-highly-manipulative-transgender-prisoner-jailed-after-sexually-assaulting-women-in-prison-37411500.html
    So to answer your question, yes men can take liberties when disguised as a woman.


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    #341
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    I think we should get rid of m/f public toilets. A bathroom is a bathroom. Into the cubicle do your business and go


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    #342
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    This is a UK case but we've had the same thing here I'm just not I reserach mode https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/a-predator-and-highly-manipulative-transgender-prisoner-jailed-after-sexually-assaulting-women-in-prison-37411500.html
    So to answer your question, yes men can take liberties when disguised as a woman.

    So when you say 'we've had the same thing', what thing are you referring to - are you referring to assaults or the presence of transgender people in prisons?

    Men can take liberties at all times, whether they are transgender or not.


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    #343
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,215 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    amdublin wrote: »
    I think we should get rid of m/f public toilets. A bathroom is a bathroom. Into the cubicle do your business and go

    It's heading the other way. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/visitors-kick-up-a-stink-over-unisex-toilets-at-cliffs-of-moher-39337137.html


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    #344
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    It's heading the other way. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/visitors-kick-up-a-stink-over-unisex-toilets-at-cliffs-of-moher-39337137.html

    And that would strike me as an issue of the bathrooms not being cleaned enough. Plenty of countries have unisex toilets and it's not exactly a new idea.


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    #345
    oyvey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭oyvey


    amdublin wrote: »
    Why? I'm wondering?

    I haven’t seen a consistent line of thinking about some things regarding LGBTQ. I’ve heard people say there’s no biological difference between sexes - if that’s the case, what even is a sex change or a trans person then? And when it comes to gender being a spectrum - I just don’t agree.

    Again, no phobia towards LGBTQ people.


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    #346
    VillageIdiot71
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭VillageIdiot71


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    I dunno, you might need to ask her. I don't speak for her.

    What do you think she should do in that situation?
    Hard one to manage, but can I suggest that it doesn't help a person who has a delusion about their weight if we join in the delusion.

    Equally, I'd wonder how it helps a man with a delusion about being a woman if we join in the delusion.


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    #347
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Drunk Monkey suggests that trans people should not be legally recognised in their preferred gender just because. This isnt possible as Ireland was found in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights for not doing so and was forced to legislate.

    I'm not sure why peoole are getting so hung up on statistics given that we are talking about 420 people out of 4.75 Million.

    Because males can't become females and females can't become males and no amount of shouting people down and trying to rewrite the laws of biology can change that.

    And if the number is really that few, why are we constantly hearing about it in the national discourse? Why do people want it taught in primary schools?


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    #348
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rodin wrote: »
    Because males can't become females and females can't become males and no amount of shouting people down and trying to rewrite the laws of biology can change that.

    And if the number is really that few, why are we constantly hearing about it in the national discourse? Why do people want it taught in primary schools?

    No amount of shouting down will change the fact trans people exist though and they exist legally in Ireland for the last 5 years.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #349
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It's also pretty accepted that all generations have had transgender people. It's not a new phenomena and I see no issue with recognising them as their gender.


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    #350
    oyvey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭oyvey


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's also pretty accepted that all generations have had transgender people. It's not a new phenomena and I see no issue with recognising them as their gender.

    Would that mean the sex they were born as could never be referred to?


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    #351
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    oyvey wrote: »
    Would that mean the sex they were born as could never be referred to?

    Why do you feel the need to refer to it? Outside of medical reasons, it's not really anyone's business.


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    #352
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Why do you feel the need to refer to it? Outside of medical reasons, it's not really anyone's business.

    It is. If as a woman you want
    A female only doctor including gynaecologist
    A female only strip searcher or prison warden
    A female only refuge shelter from rape or violence
    A female only prison accommodation
    A female only communal shower at the swimming pool or gym
    A female only dormitory in a hostel while traveling
    A female only sporting competition or scholarship category in any sport.
    A female only ownership of meaningful language that pertains to the actual living experience of being a woman that has all the words like breasts and vagina and menstruation and lactation and so on, including woman and girl, that cannot in any way be censored as exclusionary
    A female only sex attraction
    Etc etc

    Same for males, with different emphasis.

    You can drone on repeat it is not anyone's business all you like but the reality is, it is.


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    #353
    oyvey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭oyvey


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why do you feel the need to refer to it? Outside of medical reasons, it's not really anyone's business.

    It shouldn't come up in a situation where two people might hook up on a night out?


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    #354
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    No amount of shouting down will change the fact trans people exist though and they exist legally in Ireland for the last 5 years.

    They still aren't the sex they profess to be.
    It isn't possible to change sex.

    No court/legislature in the world has the power to do that.


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    #355
    JJayoo
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭JJayoo


    What about the sexy ones? Keep the sexy ones throw back the non sexy ones?


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    #356
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    oyvey wrote: »
    It shouldn't come up in a situation where two people might hook up on a night out?

    It's up to the two people involved to bring up whatever they like as part of a sensible discussion around consent. There is no legislation and no suggestion of legislation around what two discuss.
    Rodin wrote: »
    And if the number is really that few, why are we constantly hearing about it in the national discourse? Why do people want it taught in primary schools?
    We probably keep hearing about it constantly because whenever there is any suggestion of basic human decency, the 'won't someone please keep of the children' outrage brigade get up on their high horses and shout loudly.

    I guess people might want it taught in primary schools because there are transgender kids in primary schools - so teaching about transgender provides a sound basis for kids in those classes who have never encountered the issue.

    Why would you be afraid about basic education?
    VillageIdiot71 wrote: »
    Hard one to manage, but can I suggest that it doesn't help a person who has a delusion about their weight if we join in the delusion.

    Equally, I'd wonder how it helps a man with a delusion about being a woman if we join in the delusion.

    It might seem like a mad idea, but I'd be inclined to listen to experts in both cases about the best way to deal with them, rather than to the shower on boards.


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    #357
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Did the protest go ahead in Dublin yesterday about this?


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    #358
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »


    We probably keep hearing about it constantly because whenever there is any suggestion of basic human decency, the 'won't someone please keep of the children' outrage brigade get up on their high horses and shout loudly.

    I guess people might want it taught in primary schools because there are transgender kids in primary schools - so teaching about transgender provides a sound basis for kids in those classes who have never encountered the issue.

    Why would you be afraid about basic education?



    It might seem like a mad idea, but I'd be inclined to listen to experts in both cases about the best way to deal with them, rather than to the shower on boards.

    I see recently that the BBC removed Mermaids as a link for trans issues. Mermaids has had input into school training programs re trans in the UK. They promote the absolutely ascientific codswallop that one can be born in the wrong body. There are so very view " trans children" why on earth would one even dream of introducing more generally what is essentially a new religious dreamspeak that can promote ideological mistruths to very small children. There are children who suffer all manner of body dysphorias, and we do not encourage dysphoria positive training in schools. A child is never born in the wrong body. Sex is binary. They may have gender dysphoria and with their parents should seek proper medical care and counselling. To bolster or promote gender theory in schools is nothing short of effing madness.


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    #359
    the immortals
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭the immortals


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Did the protest go ahead in Dublin yesterday about this?

    Yes, I would put the crowd at about 600 maybe more, some of the speeches are up on you tube, not a word from the msm about it,


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    #360
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    the immortals wrote: »
    Yes, I would put the crowd at about 600 maybe more, some of the speeches are up on you tube, not a word from the msm about it,

    post was responded to with video, but was removed for whatever reasons, its always hard to estimate numbers at these things, but i wouldnt be as enthusiastic on those figures, its a small story anyway, only a small percentage of the population are interested in it


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    #361
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users Posts: 15,682 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Did the protest go ahead in Dublin yesterday about this?

    It did and in fairness to john Connors he gave a speech at it - it’s up on YouTube.

    It looked like it was approx 95% anti o Gorman at it from the video, a very small crowd of supporters of him at it. Less than 10.


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