PV Feed In Tariff

JTMan

Thanks. Anyone know how big a difference is there between Longi and Denim? Thanks.

unkel

None. Except the one is more expensive than the other. Look, all panels are the same, makes absolutely no difference and don't get swayed by any 20 year warranties. Panels are all good and will all last for many decades. In other words: get the cheapest ones.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119659546#Comment_119659546

Mine came 2 days ago, Heres the deets anyway

handpref

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119658666#Comment_119658666

Nice one 👍🏻

Checked yesterday and it doesn’t go backwards !! It just stops dead ((

phil_space

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119659984#Comment_119659984

Thanks. That was my plan. The smart meter seems to be the worst of all worlds until we have proper TOU tariffs.

MAULBROOK

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662004#Comment_119662004

That's a win. I do miss my old spinning backwards meter.

SD_DRACULA

Saw an article in the indo the other day saying that CRU has been made aware how 🐕️💩 the smart meter tariffs are and they will look into it.

Wonder how many years that will take...

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665685#Comment_119665685

They'll just make the DN& 24 hr more expensive, see now they are cheaper!

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665685#Comment_119665685

The Moriarty tribunal will probably look short by comparison

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665685#Comment_119665685

They've had an Indo article, a PrimeTime slot and it was on Newstalk last week as well..... Pat Kenny is going talking about smart meters again in a few mins.

I'd say the CRU are not looking at what's happening on the ground at all. They are taking a high level, hands off approach. The belief is that the "market" will sort itself out.... if that were true there would be no need for a regulator in the first place!

bullit_dodger

It's very easy to be negative here, especially with the historical evidence that's gone on over the last couple of months/years, but while maybe I'm naive, I'm hoping that this is a "Wake up call!" for the CRU. Being on the Irish indo, prime time, etc. these have got to be alerts that whatever they are doing isn't working and that they need to improve.

Like many on here, if they had a fixed standing charge across all the suppliers.....that would be a start. Ideally €100/year, but I'd settle for €250 and annually review it. Then leave the suppliers to fight it out in the market place with unit tariffs (which is what most people look at). This obfuscation of how much you pay with "discounts", and what not is nuts. It shouldn't take knowledge of Excel to figure out how much I'm goign to pay.

Setting the PV FIT too would help. 80% of wholesale or something.....

unkel

@bullit_dodger - "Setting the PV FIT too would help. 80% of wholesale or something"

So 80% of 5 cent? 😂

Laughing about it now but for years that's the sort of rate I was expecting.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667294#Comment_119667294

I guess the standing charge is NOT the cost of having a grid connection. It does include that, but its not just that. It also includes some of the fixed "cost of business" that the provider has.... call centre, billing systems, etc. So it will be a different value for every provider.

The regulator could force the providers to list the grid standing charge separately but you still wouldn't be any better off as the provider would still need to have their own standing charge. It would be more transparent, but you'd still have to feed it into your excel spreadsheet to figure it out.

This is why bonkers and switcher price comparison websites exist. Enter your unit rate and how much you use per year and it will do all the calculations for you and tell you who is the best for you. No confusion then.

curioustony

Enter your unit rate and how much you use per year and it will do all the calculations for you and tell you who is the best for you.

@KCross there will be lots of confusion. No options for solar, no options for deviations from the standard load profile, no option for battery, EV, load shifting, hot water diversion...

They ESBN & CRU are at least starting to move. Getting a portal to see smart data will help-- without the need to sign up for a smart plan. Long long way to go.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667560#Comment_119667560

No options for solar, no options for deviations from the standard load profile, no option for battery, EV, load shifting, hot water diversion

hmm..

"solar".... right, that needs to be added to the price comparison sites alright. I bet they will do that. The FiT values were only recently announced so that is likely being done.

"no options for deviations from the standard load profile".... what does that mean? When using bonkers I always enter the exact amount of kWh's that I used for day and night. I dont use default values as that would be meaningless.

"no option for battery, EV, load shifting, hot water diversion"... what difference do any of those make to a price comparison? All that matters is what you import and export.

without the need to sign up for a smart plan. Long long way to go.

I agree. The issue really is, why are the smart tariffs such poor value. In particular why are their night rates so high. The CRU need to sort that out somehow.

munsterfan2

Slightly off topic, but newstalk lunchtime had someone on talking up smart meters. Said her bill could tell her how much she spent on cooking, heating, fridge etc. Surely this is just rubbish guestimates on her bill and if so why are people spouting this rubbish on national radio unopposed.

curioustony

The standard load profile is when you use electricity. It is published each year based on each meter type. Comparison sites and suppliers must use this. So if you cook your dinner at 8pm the value calculated will be skewed. Not too bad until you bring in the other things. And I think quite misleading if you are looking at smart plans.

Smart meters are not evil. I would still go for a D/N of I could.

Smart plans are seriously lacking in choice. My suggestion to the CRU and the minister is for the regulator to mandate that any plan provided by a supplier must have a 'smart' market equivalent.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667699#Comment_119667699

The standard load profile is when you use electricity.

You dont have to use those values.

This is how you do it on bonkers.

So, you tell it what your total for the year is, what % is night time and your current per kWh rates and it will give you a perfect answer then. You should not use the default value which is to use the "national average". If that's what people are doing then they are not getting a good answer from bonkers.

idc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667652#Comment_119667652

I'd seen this before and assumed they have algorithms which can detect this at a basic level - baseload is easy to work out, fridge if it periodically spikes throughout the night then can account for that during the day. Things like oven/dryer possibly can similarly be estimates based on pattern of use. Did a quick google and found this

https://www.smart-energy.com/regional-news/europe-uk/metering-appliance-level-finally-possible/

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667371#Comment_119667371

Me too mate - I was expecting FIT of 5 cents (or there abouts), but we can't expect to get more than the market value....can we? and give them a slice for doing the middle work (as much as that galls me)

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667512#Comment_119667512

Ohh I get that suppliers have overheads even if you use zero units a year. You are still a customer of theirs. They have to produce a bill for you, have a support staff there etc. Totally get that they have fixed overheads that need a standing charge to support. However, I think the comment that there will be different values for every suppliers is probably not on the money.

Sure, depending on the level of services provided, one supplier may have a different cost structure over another as effectively you are getting two different "products", but having one supplier in the market today doing it for €200 and another as we saw either in this thread or over in another €700, seems just "wrong" to me.

Generally it should be the same fixed costs for them across the board. if it isn't, then they are probably doing something wrong at their side.

Makes sense to have a fixed cap on the standing charges. Make it generous (considering it was €100-200 mainly across the board 12 months ago) set it to €250 or something, and then the heavy users get to pay more for their use and it becomes more of a clearer picture of unit charges. Course a supplier could offer a LOWER standing charge (if they wanted to differentiate themselves), but most will go the max one suspects.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667962#Comment_119667962

However, I think the comment that there will be different values for every suppliers is probably not on the money.

Not really. When you scale it up the standing charge is a big chunk of their revenue. If the standing charge is small it means it’s alot harder to get into the market as you are then wholly dependent on signing customers quickly.

an incumbent with 500k customers can make it near impossible for you to enter the market unless you have real deep pockets that you can take a couple of years to get your customer base up.

You could also end up with a load of low usage customers who you make very little out of because they aren’t using kWh’s and you have a bare bones standing charge.

They need to make money and we’ve had several leave the market because they weren’t, so this isn’t necessarily price gouging.

Ultimately, the customer needs to decide who gives them best value like they do with any other purchase.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119668068#Comment_119668068

Well to turn it around, having a fixed standing charge would mean that suppliers are forced to deliver maximum value to their customers through unit rates.

So you might see a provider entering the market with a massive discount and a big marketing campaign to sign up a load of customers quickly

I agree that the big suppliers can effectively squash the opposition, but again that's something the regulator is supposed to stop from happening

Also I'm not really convinced that running costs for an energy supplier are that high. I mean they don't do any real work on infrastructure, as far as I can tell they just have a call center and some software for managing their systems

I know there's fees for being able to access the energy market, but those are fixed costs and not really something that would be going up and down

bullit_dodger

Not really. When you scale it up the standing charge is a big chunk of their revenue. If the standing charge is small it means it’s alot harder to get into the market as you are then wholly dependent on signing customers quickly.

an incumbent with 500k customers can make it near impossible for you to enter the market unless you have real deep pockets that you can take a couple of years to get your customer base up.

Yup some of those are fair points, although it doesn't explain the €700 standing charges for some companies, nor would it explain why standing charges have increase in general by 100-150% over the last 12 months. What's changed in their cost model in the last 12 months to explain that? Sure wages have gone up a little, but nothing that would justify that level of rise in standing charges?! Suppliers are using it as a way to hide the rate increases. They were making money last year off €100 standing charges, now apparently it has to be €300 or they aren't making profit? Nahh, something odd there. Absolutely has to be standing charges, but it's the level/rate of increases I have issue with

Might be going a little off the "PV Feed in tariff" point though.....but it is interesting.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667652#Comment_119667652

A friend of mine was on a research project to determine which appliances in a house were running based on the load profile.

So it is guesswork, but machines are a lot more predictable than people so it's quite possible to make a good estimate

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667371#Comment_119667371

Didn't they determine the CEP using a formula based on average market rates?

I mean it's 5c in the middle of the night, but at 5pm the market price is presumably much higher (especially given Eirgrid keep moaning about people using electricity in the evening)

yankinlk

...

Tree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667741#Comment_119667741

That doesn't happen for smart plans, you get the standard breakdown and as @curioustony said, if you don't cook your dinner at 6pm then you won't match their estimates. So you can't even say "i use 80% of my power at night".

wexfordman2

Anyone on a smart meter should be able to download their usage profile and use that as a tool in price comparison, not just total usage, but how much by the hour etc!

The electricity market is so closely alligned in how it works to the telecoms market...comreg regulates line rental, yet the cru has no regulatory role in standing charges ?

curioustony

@wexfordman2, if the comparison sites start to use the ESBN data for individual users, brilliant. That covers a big chunk of the input data. Will not help anybody with solar -- as it will only cover the electricity you buy. To do solar, you also need to get solar data from somewhere (e.g. PVGIS).

@KCross, that bonkers snip works great for D/N. Here is an input form (prices are out of date, early August, sorry) that I did for smart plans (you will not find all the smart plans on the comparison sites):

It was too big to fit on a single page so the bit at the top covered the other inputs:

There is a lot of freedom for suppliers to play with the rates -- I'm waiting for a smart plan to have seasonal rates too. If the comparison sites start to support this I will be very happy indeed. They can even reuse a (fantastic 😁) open source tool from github if they like.

Smart meters are not bad. Smart plans are somewhat lacking. The CRU and industry have been unforgivably slow in getting ready.

I would love to see a standard format (like this) and registry of all supplier plans in one place -- that would be a big improvement.

For me standing charges are pure slight of hand to (1) comply with the regulator w.r.t. advertising prices and (b) to make the headline rate look better.

As KCross says:

Ultimately, the customer needs to decide who gives them best value like they do with any other purchase

The problem is the complexity (of smart plans + solar + battery + EV + HP) and education required to do that well.