PV Feed In Tariff

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984520#Comment_119984520

I haven't paid out for any juice in about 14 months. I reckon I can make that last til August next year.

Bobeagleburger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985392#Comment_119985392

That's impressive!

Erekon

Received my bill from SSE Airtricity this morning for 10 Oct to 5 Dec for Gas and Electricity.

Government credit (€200 inc VAT) which was very welcome, but no FIT payment. I'm now owed for about 2,800 kWh of export at (€0.14-0.24) according to my smart meter and the esb networks site.

Guess SSE Airtricity will have to update their microgeneration help page!

When can I expect to receive payment?

From August 2022 we'll start to credit your SSE Airtricity account with your export payment. This will then appear on your following statement. From November 2022 payments will be credited onto your SSE Airtricity account in the months of November and May. Once this credit is applied to your account, this will appear on or after your next invoice date.

To be fair, the sentence says after November 2022 they will credit in November and May. They didn't say if it was November and May 2022, 2023 or 2024! Not impressed at all.

Galego

sseairtricity

It sounds like no smart meter no FIT for those in 24 hour meters. It will be just a matter of time till that applies to the day/night too I guess.

yankinlk

/sadface

SO they want to force everyone to a more expensive rate using a (not-smart) smart meter so they can charge you more money. They might pay you some FIT (eventually) - but it wont even offset the difference of being forced to use a SM.

ELM327

That's not strictly in line with the CRU decision paper, which states that if you are not MCC02 (so you are MCC01 or MCC12 or MCC16) you must either have a smart meter OR not have refused one. If you have an old 24 hr meter but havent been contacted for smart meter upgrade you should get the deemed fit

yankinlk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119991243#Comment_119991243

The CRU is a paper regulator. None of the providers seem to follow anything from it. None are providing a similar experience and none have met any of the original targets. All of them have different vague and complex ways to block FIT or make it not worhtwhile to pursue the rights the CRU say we all have.

Advice? Never build your system for FIT. By the time it gets figured out likely it will be dropped to a zero or negligble payment anyway. Self Consume is the only way IMHO.

slave1

Absolutely, self consumption is the mantra, too little PV and you'll be importing, too much and you've invested too much money up front into your PV system. Unfortunately every house is different both in terms of PV suitability and usage so there's no formulae. That's why the monthly and annual threads are great for gleaming information from ...

ELM327

For sure. By the time you're making any money from FIT you;'re many thousands in so the few crumbs back mean very little.

KCross

FiT is the just the icing on the cake.

No PV install decisions should be made based on FiT.

DaveyDave

I see the solar grant no longer allows batteries, I think you'd be mad to upgrade without a battery. We generate 6-7kW in the Summer with our crappy 1.2kW panels and even that kills me, neither of us work from home so can't even use it.

In a perfect world nobody would export anything.

silver_sky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119992051#Comment_119992051

It's not that it no longer allows batteries, you don't get any extra for a battery. That change is in a while. Personally I think unless you've got a tiny system, you should have a battery.

Erekon

Guys, I spent a good bit of time looking into batteries, reading studies and watching videos and I have to respectfully disagree with several posts on the financial benefit of buying batteries for a PV system in late 2022/23 in Ireland. Importantly, I'm taking about buying batteries now, not if you have batteries already at a lower price and/or you received SEAI support - in which case, you are very lucky!

My assumptions/research is:

• Right now, batteries are expensive per lifetime kWh -- For example, a Pylontech US3000 battery has a cost of €1500+vat, a usable capacity of 3.2kWh, and a 6000 cycle expected lifetime (not at full discharge). The lifetime cost per kWh is €1,845/(3.2*6000) = ~€0.10 per kWh assuming it does not degrade. (Building your own battery and BMS would be cheaper, but that's really on an option for expert users).
• On SSE Airtricity, I purchase energy at €0.34 kWh and export at €0.24kWh. Therefore, if I take one unit of 'free' PV energy and place it in the battery it would cost €0.34. (as I would have received €0.24 for export and the battery degradation would cost €0.10). They are equal, even ignoring energy conversion costs. I'm on a smart meter 24hr tariff. I don't recommend smart time-of-use tariffs after the recent price rise.
• The setup capital cost is expensive as the hybrid inverter will be €500-€1000 more expensive, or a new AC coupled battery inverter could be €2k+ before any batteries are even added. That capital cost has to be recouped over 10-15 years or so to be safe.

Other factors:

• Vehicle to Grid (V2G) is coming and if you are considering an EV in the next few years, then this could replace your battery capacity with a much greater capacity (60-70kWh and wear levelling) before you have recouped your (3-10kWh) home battery capital cost.
• New Na-ion batteries are coming (3-5 years). They are heavy and less energy dense than lithium batteries, but they are perfect for home installations and they should be dramatically cheaper, given how cheap salt is to mine versus lithium.

To my mind, batteries would only be cost effective in Ireland if:

• Batteries prices fall by 50% or more. This is highly likely with Na-ion based batteries (come back in 5 years!)
• Feed in tariffs are reduced dramatically (say under €0.10 kWh) or are they are removed.
• We are all forced into time-of-use tariffs with extreme peak-use costs (and very low off-peak rates).
• An Octopus energy-like service is introduced into Ireland with real-time demand pricing and we could arbitrage.

Also note: If you are on the gas network and not on a time-of-use tariff, then you should not purchase an Eddi heat diverter (or equivalent) as you are paying €0.10 kWh for gas versus exporting at up to €0.24 kWh (even discounting the roundtrip electricity->heat efficiency and the €500+ set-up cost). Doing this for environmental reasons or to get real-time energy consumption monitoring is of course different.

Saying all this, I will likely buy a battery in the future as I do believe feed-in-tariffs will reduce as PV mainstreams (see Australia!) but I hope that Na-ion batteries or V2G will be in place by then. Currently, my advice is that instead of spending on batteries, increase the size of your PV array and keep in mind that DC oversizing of 50% works very well in Ireland (e.g., having 9kWp of panels on a 6kW inverter) and export more. Eventually you can use that capacity to charge your Chinese EV if feed-in tariffs are cut!

Hopefully I'm not being too forward in these views, as it's only my 3rd post on Boards, but I just want to try and give something back after learning so much great information from this discussion in particular.

(Edited to change NaCl to Na-ion)

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993145#Comment_119993145

I concur! 😉

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119522527/#Comment_119522527

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993145#Comment_119993145

NaCl? are they the molten salt batteries? They have to be kept pretty toasty dont they?. for Grid scale i'll see it but not domestic.

But I'd be agreeing with a lot of what you say, Off the shelf batteries are very expensive, Really nice to have though..

Although your on a 32c day rate, but someone signing up now cant get that, and you need to be on a smart meter (either a 24 hr tariff or a smart tariff)

that peak rate.. no wonder we are holding on to the day night for deal life... Long may it last and getting a deemed export.

Batteries are lovely to have. making them pay. thats another thing.. unless you get them a lot cheaper.

Erekon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993544#Comment_119993544

Thanks. Apologies, I meant Sodium-Ion (Na-Ion) batteries, not NaCl. There have been recent breakthroughs on developing a suitable electrolyte that looks really promising. I'll edit. Search "PNLL and sodium ion" (I'm not allowed to post links yet)

Yes, my current unit rate of €0.34 is on a 33% sign up discount that will last until next September 2023. The cut to the discounts is fairly recent and I hadn't factored it in, but even at the new rate €0.4341 it will take a long time to write off the capital cost of the hybrid inverter as the saving is 43.5 - 24 - 10 = 9.5c per kWh saving.

Yes, the 5pm-7pm rate is crazy. SSE increased it 72% in the last round of increases, compared to 45% on the standard rate. Stay well away if that is the way 'smart' time-of-use tariff customers are treated! (Search SSE rate increase August 2022)

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993909#Comment_119993909

Looks promising. Maybe i'll pick some up in 10 years!

full disclosure: I'm sitting on 40kwh of DIY batteries, which has cost me about 5k for the cells.

Started at 10, then went 20 for a bit more buffer, now at 40 and plan to charge the car from them overnight in the summer! the diminishing returns of the payback come in fast. the last expansion was just because I could A hobby now, They'll not pay back much but wont lose a huge amount of value either.

the only thing currently muddying the water is the d/n meters, Its having your cake and eating it too regarding the deemed FIT. but that wont be there forever either.

slave1

Ereton, nothing new in your post, from a financial perspective it’s never been worth buying likes of Pylontech setups, we’ve ALWAYS advocated DIY battery as the only financiallly justified route

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119994185#Comment_119994185

we’ve ALWAYS advocated DIY battery as the only financiallly justified route

You must be reading a different forum! 😀

I was ploughing a lonely furrow here a while back when I was saying that people should drop the batteries from their quotes. Loads of people supporting batteries “to get the grant” etc, some still supporting it even in recent threads.

yankinlk

In RL I tell everyone don't bother with a battery at today's prices and without a grant. I ask people to at least ask for two quotes from every supplier, with and without a battery.... So they can do the math....

But I think people still say, "I know I know, but I'm going to add a battery anyway."

When prices were cheaper there was a grant... Then prices went up and the gov took the battery grant away... It should have been the opposite. Instead many people are getting advice from people with battery systems... And just trying to copy build.

ELM327

Anyone paying thousands for 3kwh pylontech needs their head examined

yankinlk

I finally get t the email from EI :

As you may know, the Microgeneration Support Scheme came into effect with the introduction of the Clean Export Guarantee (CEG) on the 15th Feb 2022. 

 

Microgeneration is the generation of small-scale renewable energy, such as solar PV panels etc. If you produce more electricity than you consume, the surplus will spill onto the grid allowing you to receive a credit for the excess amount you produce.

 

Our records show that the appropriate NC6 connection form has been submitted for your microgeneration installation and we are pleased to confirm that you are eligible for microgeneration credit.

 

We are happy to provide you with some of the important details about how and when you will be paid for your excess electricity.

 

When will my payment start? 

 

We will begin making payment from the 2nd of December onwards. You will receive your first credit on your next scheduled bill after this date. You will then receive a microgeneration credit on each bill thereafter, reflecting the amount of electricity you exported in that period.

 

Smart Meter customers:

 

Smart Meter customers will have first payments back-dated to the latest of the following dates:

• February 15th 2022
• The date your NC6 was processed
• The date your smart meter was installed

If you have yet to receive a smart meter, please note that you have been prioritised for one and ESB Networks will be in contact soon.

 

PAYG customers will have the credit applied to their electricity account.

 

Day & Night Meter customers:

 

If you have a Day & Night meter or for technical reasons, cannot have a smart meter installed you will receive a deemed estimate based on the size of your microgeneration installation.

 

This estimate will be calculated by ESB Networks using an algorithm provided by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities.

 

This payment will be back-dated to the later of the following dates;

• February 15th 2022
• The date your NC6 was processed

What rate will I be paid?

 

As stated above, the rate is now 21c/kWh and we estimate that this payment will range between €80 - €400 per year per household. This is depending on the size and type of your microgeneration system and your electricity usage. As a rough guide, a typical installation of 10 x PV panels on a residential home would result in a payment of about €200 per year.

 

Important update for VAT- registered customers.

 

Please note that microgeneration customers who are VAT registered must inform us of their VAT number in order for payment to be processed. To submit your VAT number we would ask you to please email us at homeinnovation@electricireland.ie with the following:

• Name
• Electricity account number
• Company Name
• VAT number

Galego

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119995177#Comment_119995177

No mention to those in 24hr meters!?

idc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119995193#Comment_119995193

you need to replace your 24 hr meter with a smart one if you want to get fit. you can still stay on 24hr tariff but would need smart meter to record export.

Mr Q

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993145#Comment_119993145

You are making one very big assumption with V2G. I already have an EV but it isn't at home during the daytime, a lot of people would be the same.

There is always a "New" battery on it's way. But until you can actually buy them nobody knows the cost or if they will actually be commercially viable.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119994398#Comment_119994398

Very true - I'm generally pro-battery (even with FIT) but I always tell people to do their own math. While we generally use the same electricity (on average 5,000Kwhr/year) every household is different in how they consume it, be it during the day, evening, etc. is it spikey, or generally constant.

I know many people, incl myself, when learning the solar space always compute the payback timeline of batteries, but in some respect it's not the right way to look at it.

Leaving money aside for a sec and going back to the FIT topic of conversation, batteries help smooth the grid, esp when coupled with smart meters, which of course we're not "really" using properly in Ireland. There is that infamous duck curve (Duck curve - Wikipedia) and FIT sort of encourages people to throw there unwanted Kwhr over the fence and "let the grid operators deal with it".

Don't get me wrong, that's great for the individual user, but not actually a completely great idea for grid management when you have lots and lots of people with solar. It doesn't actually help reduce power station construction, and sometimes fossil fuel based quick reactionary ones too :-(

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119994269#Comment_119994269

Yes/No, get it included in your quote (to avail of the grant) and then sell it to fund DIY route, this is mute now though given the battery grant is gone

KCross

Are these still the latest FiT figures?

Energia - 18c - Pays per billing period. Is already paying out.

SSE - 24c - Pays twice a year (Nov and May).

Bord Gais - 18.5c - Pays once a year

Electric Ireland - 21c - Pays per billing period (starting Dec 2022)

FloGas - 24c - Pays per billing period

Pinergy - 25c - Pays per billing period

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119996369#Comment_119996369

Pinenergy going up to 25c in January

https://pinergy.ie/news/volatile-inflated-wholesale-energy-costs-and-higher-regulated-charges-lead-pinergy-to-announce-price-increase/

wexfordman2

On the battery cost and payback, i currebtly have a 5kwh battery.

I am in energia ev tarrif which i think is roughly 11c night rate, 38c day rate ajd 18c fit.

By my reckoning, with night time charging, i am saving close to 27c per kwh with my battery at night time, so appprox 1.20 per night, or 440 per year ?

If i added another 10kwh that would be another 2.70 saved (985 per year), so with 15kwh i would save nearly 1500 a year ?

I know its a rough calculation, and doesnt include efficeincy losses etc, and potentially other tarrifs might be more effective, but it isnt a small amount! Battery would ciat me 5 to 6 k though i think!