If there was no IRA....

blanch152

By the early 1970s, there was a realisation that things needed to change in Northern Ireland. Dialogue between the Dublin and London governments made that clear.

Once Sunningdale was negotiated, a formula for peace into the medium and long-term was in place. Little changed between Sunningdale and the GFA, with Seamus Mallon calling it Sunningdale for slow learners. If we had had no PIRA, we would have had peace and prosperity in the North over 40 years ago. All-Ireland co-operation would be further advanced, and the two economies would be much better off.

Not only did thousands suffer and die at the hands of the PIRA, but millions would be living better lives if they had never existed.

gossipgirl123

mordeith wrote: »

Grammar Nazi and then followed the 'the Brits was doing' ...tsk, tsk.

Hands up I cant get my head around the theres and wheres I really tried just doesn't sink in.

gossipgirl123

At what point do you decide I will pick up a gun and kill or become a bomb maker.

Zebra3

blanch152 wrote: »

By the early 1970s, there was a realisation that things needed to change in Northern Ireland. Dialogue between the Dublin and London governments made that clear.

Once Sunningdale was negotiated, a formula for peace into the medium and long-term was in place. Little changed between Sunningdale and the GFA, with Seamus Mallon calling it Sunningdale for slow learners. If we had had no PIRA, we would have had peace and prosperity in the North over 40 years ago. All-Ireland co-operation would be further advanced, and the two economies would be much better off.

Not only did thousands suffer and die at the hands of the PIRA, but millions would be living better lives if they had never existed.

So the IRA were to blame for Loyalists bringing down the Sunningdale Agreement?

grayzer75

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

We would also still be ruled by the Brits

Most of the ones on here would love that........

Zebra3

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

At what point do you decide I will pick up a gun and kill or become a bomb maker.

For most members of the British army, 17.

They then proceed to take their terror around the world.

Bob Harris

SlowMotion321 wrote: »

The question referred to the IRA, not the UVF, VHS, Betamax or any of the others

One only existed because the others did.

whisky_galore

There would be an IRB, or an ARI, or perhaps a RAI.

seamus

It's a complicated topic. Assuming you're just talkng about the IRA that appeared in the 1950s/60s, then I expect we probably wouldn't be a million miles away from where we are now. The economic damage in Northern Ireland was caused by British policy well before any armed struggle broke out, so we can't assume NI would be a prosperous wealthier statelet without the IRA.

The British apartheid policies in relation to religion would still have persisted, and would still have created considerable tension. IRA activity likely caused the UK to escalate their policies and dig the heels in, but even with them, there would have remained spurts of civil unrest and clashes between Catholic communities and the RUC/BA. There may still have been no-go areas at some point and without the organisation of the IRA may have resulted in a much more desperate Tianemen square-style outcome for the residents.

Without the justification of an insurgency, the UK would have far less international support for a jackboot approach to Northern Ireland, and the inevitable wave of human rights would have forced the same changes that we today.

However, one big difference would be that without the Good Friday Agreement, Stormont would be very different. Devolution probably would have happened, but gerrymandering and other anti-democratic policies would likely have remained in place, with the DUP holding a strong perennial majority and stifling a lot of the progress we have seen. It would mean that NI could still to this day be struggling with civil unrest and much greater deprivation and inequality for its non-loyalist population.

Risingshadoo

Is he talking about the PIRA or the original IRA during the twenties. Without the first version of it, we wouldn't have a State. Without the second version of it, we wouldn't have the Good Friday agreement.

I don't support Sinn Fein or the Provos by the way (but I can understand why they did what they did), I'm just trying to answer your question.

It would have been interesting to see the result of Brexit if the whole of Ireland was still in the UK.

StupidLikeAFox

bubblypop wrote: »

Which IRA?

I think Pepe are fooling themselves if they think they can tell the difference between the real IRA and "I Can't Believe it's not the IRA"

SlowMotion321

Bob Harris wrote: »

One only existed because the others did.

That may be true but the question didn't refer to them! Don't get me wrong I am no fan of those either! Just staying OT

If there were NO IRA there would still be a lot of underlying malais and sectarianism. The later disempowerment of the Catholic church would metastasise this:

I remember something from "Ireland's Own"
back in the day, many years ago.

In the 19th century, this musical entertainer had a great routine in a circus like atmosphere.

He then proceeded for his final act to combine the "Irish" Flag at the time in one hand with the Union Jack in the other hand, with a little ditty.

The crowd went mental and turned on him, and each other.

There would be no DELOREAN CAR FACTORY:

FACT: John DeLoroean set up his factory in Northern Ireland, because he got UK Government grants (because he was going to employ both IRA as well as Loyalist "gang members" on his production line) as the factory would be located in a sort of war zone (cheapest location to build)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mln2SymT73s&t=1103s

rdwight

rdwight wrote: »

If there had been no IRA we would probably be 5-10 years away from a United Ireland as dictated by demographics.

chicken foot wrote: »

This is a very, very simplistic view based on your personal opinion of what you view as "the IRA". The six counties were chosen strategically. The quality of the land and the Protestant to Catholic ratio - which was higher there and would allow voting in their favour. But, as with all oppressors, they pushed too far and the people fought back (with absolutely no help from the South i might add). They were subjected to "No Catholics need apply", they were forced out of their homes and were dehumanized completely. Had they of just lay down and took it, you have no idea where the current border would lie today..who's to say they wouldnt have pushed down further into the 26? We will never know but you implying that the IRA slowed the process down is completely down to your own dislike of what they currently represent.

Of course that is a view based on my personal opinion (what else can I express) and of course it's simplistic - projecting counterfactual history forward from a hundred years ago can only be simplistic.

However given that a Home Rule act was on the table a 100 years ago and that Sunningdale was on the table in the early 70's it's hard to imagine that things wouldn't have progressed to where they are now without the violence.

Looking at the changes that have taken place throughout the world and in particular in the Free State over the last 50 and 100 years it's hard not to think that violence has only served to hinder change.

gossipgirl123

I'm more interested in the IRA of the 90s

gossipgirl123

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

Hands up I cant get my head around the theres and wheres I really tried just doesn't sink in.

No hope of you getting your head around the OIRA, PIRA, CIRA, RIRA, NIRA then?

gossipgirl123

bubblypop wrote: »

No hope of you getting your head around the OIRA, PIRA, CIRA, RIRA, NIRA then?

🀣🀣🀣🀣🀣

Hannibal36

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

I'm more interested in the IRA of the 90s

They done nothing,does anybody really believe we would have Gay Marriage in the South here and an Apartheid State in the North,only difference they made is more dead and a few Sein Fein in power,the rest would have happened without violence.

James Brown

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

If we had peaceful marches in the 90s with no IRA would world leaders get involved or did we need the bloodshed.

What makes you think you'd have been allowed gather to protest? Would you have a vote?

What the IRA were changed with the times as we got closer to equality and recognition it ultimately led to peace talks. It's too handy to look at the IRA in the 90's in a bubble. Arguably their own actions with SF towards peace made themselves less relevant.

Chris_Heilong

OP are you asking is violence justified in order to achieve change?

gossipgirl123

Bobby Storey his bio bombing hotels, in jail more often than not. Found with guns, Breaking people out of jail. What was good about the man?

gossipgirl123

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

OP are you asking is violence justified in order to achieve change?

Yeah I guess I am. I'd like to think we would have gotten there in the end without the violence.

facehugger99

The IRA were a collection of criminals, racketeers, murderers and other assorted scumbags and psychopaths.

50% of the people they murdered were either civilians, members of their own group or Irish security personnel.

Rather than that brave resistors against British oppression they like to portray themselves as, their attacks were generally cowardly and against the softest targets they could find to further the criminal operations they were running. The 'I Ran Away' moniker bestowed on them was well-earned.

In summary, if there was no IRA , the would would have been a far, far better place. They made no positive contribution to anything and actually hampered the civil rights movement.

gossipgirl123

facehugger99 wrote: »

The IRA were a collection of criminals, racketeers, murderers and other assorted scumbags and psychopaths.

50% of the people they murdered were either civilians, members of their own group or Irish security personnel.

Rather than that brave resistors against British oppression they like to portray themselves as, their attacks were generally cowardly and against the softest targets they could find to further the criminal operations they were running. The 'I Ran Away' moniker bestowed on them was well-earned.

In summary, if there was no IRA , the would would have been a far, far better place. They made no positive contribution to anything and actually hampered the civil rights movement.

I am inclined to agree. I wasnt sure if I was indeed living in a bubble. How can you comprehend making and detonating a bomb that will kill innocent people inc nationalists.

James Brown

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

I am inclined to agree. I wasnt sure if I was indeed living in a bubble. How can you comprehend making and detonating a bomb that will kill innocent people inc nationalists.

It's a big question for every terrorist, army or freedom fighter the world over.
Do you think no innocents died in 1916, the civil war, WW2, Iraq 1 and 2, at the hands of the BA during the troubles?

gossipgirl123

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

Bobby Storey his bio bombing hotels, in jail more often than not. Found with guns, Breaking people out of jail. What was good about the man?

Nothing as far as I'm concerned

Perhaps he was good to his mammy.......

TheCitizen

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

@TheCitizen.... I don't like Sinn Fein I think they are loudmouthed gob****es who offer nothing. Each to their own but not my type of people

So you start a thread to tell us that? Was there not enough other anti SF threads already where you could have vented your spleen.

In your op you said “if the IRA didn’t exist would we have peace today”. Well seeing as we have peace today and SF played a huge role in the Peace Process I suppose what you’re saying is; if the IRA didn’t or never existed we wouldn’t have peace today. I think that’s what you’re saying even though it mightn’t be what you meant to say.

SlowMotion321

TheCitizen wrote: »

So you start a thread to tell us that? Was there not enough other anti SF threads already where you could have vented your spleen.

In your op you said “if the IRA didn’t exist would we have peace today”. Well seeing as we have peace today and SF played a huge role in the Peace Process I suppose what you’re saying is; if the IRA didn’t or never existed we wouldn’t have peace today. I think that’s what you’re saying even though it mightn’t be what you meant to say.

Is there a limit on the amount of threads on a topic? Why don't you start one where people state an opinion and then you can tell them what they really meant to say!

TheCitizen

facehugger99 wrote: »

The IRA were a collection of criminals, racketeers, murderers and other assorted scumbags and psychopaths.

50% of the people they murdered were either civilians, members of their own group or Irish security personnel.

Rather than that brave resistors against British oppression they like to portray themselves as, their attacks were generally cowardly and against the softest targets they could find to further the criminal operations they were running. The 'I Ran Away' moniker bestowed on them was well-earned.

In summary, if there was no IRA , the would would have been a far, far better place. They made no positive contribution to anything and actually hampered the civil rights movement.

In your opinion and you vent this opinion because it’s likely you vote FFG and you see SF as a political rival