Single-Sex Schools

s1ippy

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/it-s-time-to-wave-goodbye-to-single-sex-schools-1.4299095?mode=amp

The white line analogy is flogged to death a bit, but this is an interesting perspective from this young student teacher, on how gender relationships are stunted by a lack of exposure to the opposite sex in school.

Many of the lads I know who struggle with relationships clearly don't know how to act normally around girls. A lot of girls I know who are typically not in relationships have no idea how to interact with lads. I don't know anyone who went to a mixed school with issues like this to the same extent.

Just to note as well, I do know a few people who are happy out remaining single and I think this is an admirable quality in a person; being happy in yourself. Perhaps not so healthy if it's due to being unable to communicate with the opposite sex.

Personally, I went to a single-sex school and found it completely suffocating, although I was lucky to make some good friends who I'm still close with. I wouldn't consider them to be among my best friends though. I feel much more comfortable around the opposite sex and I wonder sometimes if this would be different if I'd gone to a mixed school and wasn't completely surrounded all the time.

Another issue which actually isn't addressed in the article is the normalisation of sexual violence towards women in porn and how children have access to this from a very young age. This came to light hugely in the Ana Kriegel case. My 10 year old nephew was telling me the other day about a 13 year old lad on their road who was walking around showing all the other kids a video of a woman being violently and forcibly penetrated while being choked, that young lad thought it was brilliant but it absolutely traumatised my nephew.

Men and women are all just people at the end of the day, mostly with anxieties and aspirations that they have in common with everyone else. When they're divided and encouraged to compete and dominate each other it seems you get a society full of people who don't know how to relate to those with different genitals to them, which is quite a sad outcome.

jam_mac_jam

I don't think it's a healthy atmosphere for teenagers or anyone really. I mean what's the point.

You need both to balance each other out I think. Especially during your teenage years.

DublinWriter

I can't believe single sex schools are still a thing in this country. It's idiotic and stupid.

corks finest

DublinWriter wrote: »

I can't believe single sex schools are still a thing in this country. It's idiotic and stupid.

Each to his / her own,I went to one,my son also goes to the same one,he's no relationship problems ref opposite sex( Christian ethos school, Cork)

Annasopra

I think research shows that academically boys perform better in mixed sex schools and girls perform better in all girl schools.

I think it's probably better to have more mixed at this stage.

A friend of mine attended an all girls convent and came out as a trans male in 5th year. To be fair the school and even the nuns handled it quite well and he had an ok experience in the end.

blanch152

It is much better to have integrated schools, and this is not something just confined to gender and sex, schools need to be more integrated on race and religion grounds as well.

Exposure at a young age to others who are different is good at producing well-rounded tolerant individuals.

corks finest

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think research shows that academically boys perform better in mixed sex schools and girls perform better in all girl schools.

I think it's probably better to have more mixed at this stage.

A friend of mine attended an all girls convent and came out as a trans male in 5th year. To be fair the school and even the nuns handled it quite well and he had an ok experience in the end.

I'd have thought otherwise TBH, school my kid is in is one of the best in Munster year in/ out non fee paying, single sex, excellent results yearly

corks finest

corks finest wrote: »

I'd have thought otherwise TBH, school my kid is in is one of the best in Munster year in/ out non fee paying, single sex, excellent results yearly

Pupils randomly assigned to single-sex schools outperform their counterparts in coed schools. ... For boys, school-level exposure to mixed-gender peers makes a difference. • For girls, class-level exposure to mixed-gender peers is important.

One eyed Jack

s1ippy wrote: »

The white line analogy is flogged to death a bit, but this is an interesting perspective from this young student teacher, on how gender relationships are stunted by a lack of exposure to the opposite sex in school.

...

Men and women are all just people at the end of the day, mostly with anxieties and aspirations that they have in common with everyone else. When they're divided and encouraged to compete and dominate each other it seems you get a society full of people who don't know how to relate to those with different genitals to them, which is quite a sad outcome.

It’s neither an interesting perspective, nor is it a particularly new one, nor is your own perspective as though people’s interactions or experiences are solely based upon their genitalia or indeed lack of exposure / too much exposure to people with the opposite set of genitalia... :rolleyes:

Schools are fine the way they are, it’s the children’s parents who will decide where they wish to send their children to school, whether that be to a mixed sex school or to a single sex school, and this idea that either one does people harm because one can think of examples where they are someone or they know someone who has issues relating to the opposite sex? Utter rubbish to suggest that the type of education they received is responsible.

statesaver

I was of the understanding that girls do better in single sex schools.

Edgware

statesaver wrote: »

I was of the understanding that girls do better in single sex schools.

Research shows certainly that girls perform better in single sex schools.

Iscreamkone

I thought that all boys and girls did better in grind schools

mr_fegelien

Is Ireland's dating problem caused by single sex schools? People can attend them from primary school for 18 years and then when going into college, have absolutely no social skills and can't chat to the opposite sex.

screamer

Life is not segregated and I think that success in life is more than just based on academia. Most bosses are male and I think it’s important that girls learn how to deal with boys, so that they gain the skill sets needed to deal with male colleagues and bosses, and to be able to successfully negotiate and advocate for themselves.
I think all girls schools are catteries and very unhealthy with endemic bullying going on. Mixed schools tend to dilute the bitchiness.

mr_fegelien

screamer wrote: »

Life is not segregated and I think that success in life is more than just based on academia. Most bosses are male and I think it’s important that girls learn how to deal with boys, so that they gain the skill sets needed to deal with male colleagues and bosses, and to be able to successfully negotiate and advocate for themselves.
I think all girls schools are catteries and very unhealthy with endemic bullying going on. Mixed schools tend to dilute the bitchiness.

I disagree. I went to a mixed school then had to move to a single sex school cause of bullying.

I've heard studies show there's less bullying in single sex schools (in particular for males) cause there's no women around that boys feel the need to validate their masculinity through machoness/violence.

screamer

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I disagree. I went to a mixed school then had to move to a single sex school cause of bullying.

I've heard studies show there's less bullying in single sex schools (in particular for males) cause there's no women around that boys feel the need to validate their masculinity through machoness/violence.

I’m referring to all girls schools. The bullying there is not physical like in boys schools, it’s subtle and really nasty, and in my experience goes very much under the radar. Still I believe society is mixed, schools should be also. Segregated education is a fake construct.

Galwayguy35

Is it not just the fee paying schools that are single sex?

oyvey

blanch152 wrote: »

Exposure at a young age to others who are different is good at producing well-rounded tolerant individuals.

With all the mixed schools we have already it doesn’t feel like there are that well-rounded tolerant people.

GreeBo

We should have mixed schools but single sex classes, best of both worlds.

s1ippy

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s neither an interesting perspective, nor is it a particularly new one, nor is your own perspective as though people’s interactions or experiences are solely based upon their genitalia or indeed lack of exposure / too much exposure to people with the opposite set of genitalia... :rolleyes:

Schools are fine the way they are, it’s the children’s parents who will decide where they wish to send their children to school, whether that be to a mixed sex school or to a single sex school, and this idea that either one does people harm because one can think of examples where they are someone or they know someone who has issues relating to the opposite sex? Utter rubbish to suggest that the type of education they received is responsible.

Studies have been done on potential impact on students’ mixed-gender interactions and friendships. This particular study was not conducted in Ireland but in Hong Kong, "where single-sex schools were common during the British colonial era in the 1900s and still represent a sizeable portion in the education system today (e.g., approximately 16% of high schools)".

It found that:

Reduced exposure to mixed-gender interactions was suggested to predispose individuals to experience mixed-gender anxiety [34,35], which may lead to future avoidance of mixed-gender situations, thus disrupting the process of social skills acquisition and relationship formation, resulting in a vicious cycle [29]. Interest in mixed-gender anxiety, sometimes termed “dating anxiety” or more generally “heterosocial anxiety”, has resurged recently [36]. It was found that higher mixed-gender anxiety is related to less initiatives, satisfaction and poorer performance in mixed-gender interactions [34,37], as well as delayed first dating relationship, fewer dating and sexual experiences, and more difficulties in romantic relationships for heterosexual individuals [31,32]. Besides, mixed-gender anxiety negatively affects psychological and physical well-being, including lower self-esteem and non-assertiveness and increased depression and loneliness [38–40]. However, it is important to note that not all individuals are heterosexual and mixed-gender anxiety may affect both romantic and non-romantic situations. While mixed-gender anxiety in romantic situations (referred to as dating anxiety in this study) is more relevant to heterosexual individuals, the more general form of mixed-gender anxiety in non-romantic situations (referred to as general mixed-gender anxiety) may affect individuals of any sexual orientation. Therefore, it would be meaningful to not only study dating anxiety, but also the general mixed-gender anxiety in non-romantic situations.

girls in single-sex schools to feel more gender-typical and pressured to conform to gender norms, but Kessels and Hannover [26] found girls in single-sex classes to have less accessible gender-related self-knowledge (lower endorsement of feminine traits and longer reaction time responding to these traits), a finding taken to reflect lower gender salience in single-sex classes.

When it comes to educational outcomes,

"About a third of Ireland's post-primary school are single-sex. By international standards, this is unusual."

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-its-time-to-abolish-single-sex-schools-3787897-Jan2018/
Here's another standpoint on it that I consider worth examining, it may not interest you though seeing as you regard my experience as invalid for some reason.

GreeBo wrote: »

We should have mixed schools but single sex classes, best of both worlds.

That is a hilarious compromise I had never even considered, can you imagine it! I think even from a practical standpoint it would be too cumbersome to implement and I can't see too many advantages... what about subjects where there isn't a large uptake from students and there could only be a class formed with 12 of each gender, would they need to split them!?

Just one example that springs to mind, I just can't really see the benefit of it for the hassle of would cause!

Calhoun

One of the big tangible impacts of having single sex schools is that when it comes to special needs services as an example they get isolated to a single sex. So you literally could have a position where one sex does better than another.

In my local area out of three primary schools only one has a special needs unit and its in the boys only school. Why we have situation in Ireland in 2020 where you dont have equality of service due to sex is ridiculous.

One eyed Jack

s1ippy wrote: »

Here's another standpoint on it that I consider worth examining, it may not interest you though seeing as you regard my experience as invalid for some reason.

I’ve examined much of it already, and I had no doubt that the results of your poll would be skewed towards mixed sex schools as I suspect most of the voters had shìtty experiences in single sex schools and like yourself wonder if it would be different if they had gone to a mixed sex school.

The answer is probably not, they’d still likely be as introverted as they are no matter what type of education they had or who they went to school with. The author of the article you linked to claims to be unable to relate to males, and that certainly is an issue if she is teaching school children who are male. It’s an issue for her, it’s an issue for them if she allows her issues to get in the way of her professional conduct in employment because they’ll be the ones who have to put up with a shìtty teacher.

Shìtty teachers who fail to inspire their students are by no means limited to one sex or the other.

I went to an all girls school and came out the other side ok. I never had problems socialising with females, males or mixed groups after I left.

statesaver

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Is Ireland's dating problem caused by single sex schools? People can attend them from primary school for 18 years and then when going into college, have absolutely no social skills and can't chat to the opposite sex.

Must be tough, have you worked up enough courage to talk to a girl yet ?

s1ippy

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’ve examined much of it already, and I had no doubt that the results of your poll would be skewed towards mixed sex schools as I suspect most of the voters had shìtty experiences in single sex schools and like yourself wonder if it would be different if they had gone to a mixed sex school.

What kind of a school did you go to, out of interest?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The answer is probably not, they’d still likely be as introverted as they are no matter what type of education they had or who they went to school with.

I'm far from introverted, that's not the issue being discussed at all. There's a difference between being shy generally and being unable to function sensibly around the opposite sex.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The author of the article you linked to claims to be unable to relate to males, and that certainly is an issue if she is teaching school children who are male. It’s an issue for her, it’s an issue for them if she allows her issues to get in the way of her professional conduct in employment because they’ll be the ones who have to put up with a shìtty teacher.

I actually agree with you that she wouldn't be a good teacher for males, again that's not being discussed in this conversation.

Shìtty teachers who fail to inspire their students are by no means limited to one sex or the other.

Also true, and not being debated in this particular conversation.

One eyed Jack

s1ippy wrote: »

What kind of a school did you go to, out of interest?

Primary education was mixed school where there was little understanding of learning difficulties and were it not for the fact that my mother was also a teacher I could have been sent to a school for children with special needs as opposed to a mainstream school. Secondary school was a Christian Brothers School at the tail end of the involvement of the Christian Brothers and corporal punishment. There were as many female as male lay teachers who taught a variety of subjects. The girls from the Convent who were interested in studying higher mathematics and physics would come up for those classes, and the boys who wanted to study Home Economics would attend the Convent. The Vocational School which was co-ed had something of a reputation for being uninterested in academic and sporting development and achievements.

Naturally I’m more biased towards having my own child’s education reflect my own, as most parents are. There are some parents who prefer the idea of co-ed education because they are of the opinion that such schools are better for their children’s personal and social development. I’m not one of those parents, obviously.

s1ippy wrote: »

I'm far from introverted, that's not the issue being discussed at all. There's a difference between being shy generally and being unable to function sensibly around the opposite sex.

If there is, I’m not seeing it tbh. Nothing wrong with being introverted or shy or anything else, but there’s a lot wrong with trying to suggest that your education was the cause of any inability to function sensibly around the opposite sex, and it wasn’t me who introduced the behaviour of the boys in the Ana Kriegel case? I know the wider issue you were getting at is the suggestion that the sexes are unable to relate to each other, but they’re called outliers for a reason. The vast majority of people have no difficulty interacting with the opposite sex, or even those of their own sex.

s1ippy wrote: »

I actually agree with you that she wouldn't be a good teacher for males, again that's not being discussed in this conversation.

Also true, and not being debated in this particular conversation.

It would have to be discussed in this discussion if you’re attempting to draw a correlation between the sexes inability to relate to each other, and the influence of their educational experiences, particularly when you’re putting yourself forward as an example while ignoring the blatantly obvious - there’s far more involved in a person’s personal and social development than just whether or not they attend a mixed or single sex school as a child.

hatrickpatrick

I've always 100% thought single sex education was a bad idea, and I went to a single sex school myself until fifth year. The socialisation and development of social skills you miss out on is unbelievable when you're not regularly interacting with peers of the opposite gender on a daily basis until adulthood.

osarusan

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Is it not just the fee paying schools that are single sex?

In Limerick anyway, plenty of non fee paying schools are single sex. St. Mary's, St. Munchins, Ard Scoil Ris, Laurel Hill, all single sex. The latter two are among the best in the city.

eviltwin

My kids, boy and girl, went to mixed schools and it’s always seemed like the obvious way to do it. I actually don’t have any single sex schools in my area anyway. Both my husband and myself went to single sex schools and we hated them.

king_of_mayo

I went to a mixed primary and all boys secondary. Looking back, I'm happy with that. There's no way I would have done as well if the secondary was mixed.

Hodors Appletart

I was mixed up to First Class, then single sex all the way to leaving cert.

however my peer group was always mixed and I was in scouts which had girls too by the time I was in it

never had an issue with interacting with girls.