How do we break the welfare cycle?

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

In fairness, trickle down economics doesn’t exist in Ireland. Salaries have to be paid before profits, if any, are accrued.

does it exist at all?

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

does it exist at all?

Supply side/Reganomics existed in the US for a brief period. Not so much anymore.

Dyr

gailforecast wrote: »

How do we stop generational welfare recipients?

Do CE schemes or other work programs work? Or is there another approach we can take which will be effective?

Good training schemes really work, especially in conjuction with industry support and ongoing assesement of course success

You start investing in poverty infrastructure with NGOs etc. all you wind up with is professionals who's interest it's in to perpetuate the problem rather than solve it

cgcsb

gailforecast wrote: »

So your plan is to just sell it to another billionaire? I don’t understand what you want here.

I also don’t know what you mean by rich mans dole? Why would anybody pay more tax than is absolutely necessary?

No problem with a person who earns a billion honestly, some people earned it through corruption (effectively have taken it from the tax payer in far greater amounts than the tax payer).

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

Supply side/Reganomics existed in the US for a brief period. Not so much anymore.

did it really, or did it just cause a large scale asset price inflation, low wage inflation, stagnant in some cases, and overall increasing worker insecurities?

Pinoy adventure

With seetec gone,will the CE scheme go next ? Paying people €20 on top of the dole too work 20hours a week.
Slave labor that is.
The unemployed need/deserve more money NOT less money.

LegallyAbroad

Withdraw the massive tax breaks for those in receipt of generational asset transfers.

Ringface the additional money for early child development for those in the most at risk socio-economic categories.

LegallyAbroad

Geuze wrote: »

I often wonder do we have the highest % of the pop on welfare?

It was 50%.

By 2019 it was about 45%.

Hard to get good comparative data, so hard to compare with other countries.

But we do know that we lead Europe in jobless households, that's for sure.

We are high for lone parenthood.

We are really high for disability, I often wonder why?

This is good, though. It stops us having the massive social problems other countries have.

We have the most re-distributive tax system in Europe. Can you imagine the problems we would have otherwise?

gailforecast

Pinoy adventure wrote: »

With seetec gone,will the CE scheme go next ? Paying people €20 on top of the dole too work 20hours a week.
Slave labor that is.
The unemployed need/deserve more money NOT less money.

How do figure that? My dad found himself unemployed for a grand total of 6 months, excluding 3 months during the pandemic. Both times he gladly undertook CE schemes.

Why do unemployed people “deserve” more money? Should our taxes go up to cover this?

amadangomor

The thing that makes no sense for me is that people who have contributed get the same as long term unemployed.

I had a serious injury and have had to come back to work prematurely at risk to my health because I was getting 203 measly euro a week. After 20+ years of PRSI contributions this is a kick in the teeth.

Cutting JSA and upping JSB and sick benefit would be fairer to the people who make an effort.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

How do figure that? My dad found himself unemployed for a grand total of 6 months, excluding 3 months during the pandemic. Both times he gladly undertook CE schemes.

Why do unemployed people “deserve” more money? Should our taxes go up to cover this?

hmmm covid payment increased to 350, hmmm maybe its kinna difficult to survive on 200?

an increase in taxation may not be required for such things, if government borrowed money is used well to stimulate the economy, to create a growing economy, hence increasing overall tax revenue, little or no extra taxes would be needed

Dempo1

It's an interesting question and with a looming end to the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, there's going to be a big increase in unemployment and by default welfare supports,, indeed THE TWSS, is also a red herring, whilst it offers employers an opportunity to retain staff and have payroll heavily subsidised there is clearly 1000's on this scheme who remain furloughed, basically businesses closed, not trading and staff earning up to €2800 pm. Its a false and unsustainable economy.

I hope to god, Sectac and Tua Nua don't return, both an horrendous waste of tax payers money and an absolutely not fit for purpose , albeit Leo's pet project so they may return. I had first hand experience of Tua Nua a few years back and it was beggars belief what was going on.

It may be unpalatable but I think in the future a gaurenteed monthly income for every citizen is the only way forward. Its also likely reduced working week is coming and it seems more sensible to create a system whereby every citizen gets a basic monthly wage. Beyond that additional earnings would yield taxes and pay for services. No I'm not suggesting encouraging no one to work but a basic sustainable level of support with heavily incentivised encouragement to remain in employment etc. I'm no expert but I've experienced both sides of the fence, successful career and unemployment. One thing for sure, the current system is broken and needs fixing.

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

hmmm covid payment increased to 350, hmmm maybe its kinna difficult to survive on 200?

an increase in taxation may not be required for such things, if government borrowed money is used well to stimulate the economy, to create a growing economy, hence increasing overall tax revenue, little or no extra taxes would be needed

The Covid payment was introduced because hard working people found themselves out of work beyond their control, and had commitments that people who have never worked wouldn’t have. It has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever.

Besides, the Covid payment so far has cost the equivalent of the past 4 years welfare bill, so it’s completely unsustainable.

LegallyAbroad

I always find when looking at issues such as tax, welfare, etc., it's best to ignore subjective feelings such as "fairness" and look purely at outcomes.

I think in the long-run, particularly with climate change and if we want to ensure a just transition, a universal basic income has to be looked at.

Most people will want to work anyway, as it is central to their identity. For those who don't fine.

KiKi III

Before Covid we were close to full employment.

Of the small proportion of the population that was unemployed many of them would have been legitimately between jobs. The number of people on the dole for life is very small, and definitely not worthy of the level of outrage we see week in week out on Boards.

The best way to tackle intergenerational poverty, and subsequent reliance on welfare, IMO would be to invest heavily in free childcare to the age of five, with nutritious meals provided.

Two reasons:

1. It doesn’t pay for a parent to work 40 hours a week for €450 if they immediately have to hand over €200 of that for childcare. The inflated cost of childcare in Ireland discourages people from working. If I was in that situation I would much prefer to live off the €203/week and spend all that time with my child than go out to work, get very little time with my child and be essentially no better off.

2. If a small child is growing up in an environment that is less than ideal; where abuse, addiction, mental health issues or poverty are rife, free childcare with a meal provides them a safe place to be looked after and nourished, socialized and shown a different way things can be. Kids growing up in difficult environments deserve that.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

The Covid payment was introduced because hard working people found themselves out of work beyond their control, and had commitments that people who have never worked wouldn’t have. It has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever.

Besides, the Covid payment so far has cost the equivalent of the past 4 years welfare bill, so it’s completely unsustainable.

theres known reasons for long term unemployment, and we re largely ignoring them, this is in fact critical to the thread

as other have stated, we probably need to start looking at things such as ubi etc, and its easily affordable, because money simply is created on magical money trees. id class the covid payment as a type of ubi, and its been successful, a ubi system is sustainable

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

. id class the covid payment as a type of ubi, and its been successful, a ubi system is sustainable

That’s very true....apart from the fact we’re pretty much out of money at this point. It’s cost 30 billion so far. It’s completely unsustainable.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

That’s very true....apart from the fact we’re pretty much out of money at this point. It’s cost 30 billion so far. It’s completely unsustainable.

in the words of alan greenspan and mario draghi, 'central banks can never run out of money'!

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

in the words of alan greenspan and mario draghi, 'central banks can never run out of money'!

Except they can. Greece springs to mind.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

Except they can. Greece springs to mind.

greece didnt run out of money, their banks some how got shut down, very strange situation alright, very odd, maybe they all went on holidays, and somebody forgot to leave on the printing presses!

LegallyAbroad

gailforecast wrote: »

Except they can. Greece springs to mind.

Greece can. It doesn't have a Central Bank.

The ECB and the Fed can't.

gailforecast

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

Greece can. It doesn't have a Central Bank.

The ECB and the Fed can't.

Greece does have a central bank.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Greece

Dempo1

gailforecast wrote: »

The Covid payment was introduced because hard working people found themselves out of work beyond their control, and had commitments that people who have never worked wouldn’t have. It has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever.

Besides, the Covid payment so far has cost the equivalent of the past 4 years welfare bill, so it’s completely unsustainable.

I agree that the PUP and TWSS were completely necessary and yes there's still 400k on the pup not because of their doing, however THE TWSS appears to be continuing and it seems to me to be completly illogical that businesses now back trading normally continue to have their payrolls subsidised, worse, there are business trading that shouldn't be also being subsidised and finally there is literally 1000's on this scheme, furloughed, at home unable to work because their employers availed of the scheme but remain closed.said employees can get up to €2800 pm. (I get the expenses during lockdown, loss revenues etc, but these are separate issues) This is completly unsustainable. Spare a thought for a pup receiptient, either employee or self employed who had to claim themselves and get €350 pw. Yes is unsustainable but a blanket judgement and ceasing of PUP seems to be grossly unfair.

By re-introducing manufacturing.

Covid-19 has shown us how reliant we are on China for the essentials.

kenmm

KiKi III wrote: »

Before Covid we were close to full employment.

Of the small proportion of the population that was unemployed many of them would have been legitimately between jobs. The number of people on the dole for life is very small, and definitely not worthy of the level of outrage we see week in week out on Boards.

The best way to tackle intergenerational poverty, and subsequent reliance on welfare, IMO would be to invest heavily in free childcare to the age of five, with nutritious meals provided.

Two reasons:

1. It doesn’t pay for a parent to work 40 hours a week for €450 if they immediately have to hand over €200 of that for childcare. The inflated cost of childcare in Ireland discourages people from working. If I was in that situation I would much prefer to live off the €203/week and spend all that time with my child than go out to work, get very little time with my child and be essentially no better off.

2. If a small child is growing up in an environment that is less than ideal; where abuse, addiction, mental health issues or poverty are rife, free childcare with a meal provides them a safe place to be looked after and nourished, socialized and shown a different way things can be. Kids growing up in difficult environments deserve that.

Wrong forum. Comments such as this are not generally welcome. Be prepared for someone to rip it apart with all sorts of outrage and false equivalence.

LegallyAbroad

gailforecast wrote: »

Greece does have a central bank.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Greece

It's a financial regulator and representative office of the ECB. None of the eurozone member states have actually Central Banks anymore, they just retained the name after all the actual monetary powers were transferred to the ECB.

If Greece has a Central Bank, why can't it change its interest rates?

Wanderer78

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

It's a financial regulator and representative office of the ECB. None of the eurozone member states have actually Central Banks anymore, they just retained the name after all the actual monetary powers were transferred to the ECB.

If Greece has a Central Bank, why can't it change its interest rates?

according to mcwilliams, our central banks can actual create money, as this is permitted under eu rules and regulations

gailforecast

[Deleted User] wrote: »

By re-introducing manufacturing.

Covid-19 has shown us how reliant we are on China for the essentials.

Another poster argued this point too. I’m of the opinion that Ireland is so overly educated that anyone without a degree is deemed “under-qualified”.

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

according to mcwilliams, our central banks can actual create money, as this is permitted under eu rules and regulations

Yes and inflation will go through the roof and not worth the paper it’s printed on.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

Another poster argued this point too. I’m of the opinion that Ireland is so overly educated that anyone without a degree is deemed “under-qualified”.

opening up our educational system to more citizens has increased our economic activity and overall standard of living, its one of our biggest success stories