How do we break the welfare cycle?

LegallyAbroad

Wanderer78 wrote: »

according to mcwilliams, our central banks can actual create money, as this is permitted under eu rules and regulations

The Irish Central Bank does produce money (i.e. banknotes), but this production is authorized by the ECB.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

Yes and inflation will go through the roof and not worth the paper it’s printed on.

central banks have been trying to create inflation since the last crash via qe, its largely failed, the only inflation they got was further asset price inflation as we re in a deflationary period, i.e. its highly unlikely it would cause rare situation such as hyper inflation, the old neoclassical economics cook book is toast!

LegallyAbroad

gailforecast wrote: »

Yes and inflation will go through the roof and not worth the paper it’s printed on.

This hasn't happened in the West in the last decade, despite literally trillions having been magicked in to being by the ECB/Fed/BoE through QE.

Eric Cartman

KiKi III wrote: »

Before Covid we were close to full employment.

Of the small proportion of the population that was unemployed many of them would have been legitimately between jobs. The number of people on the dole for life is very small, and definitely not worthy of the level of outrage we see week in week out on Boards.

The best way to tackle intergenerational poverty, and subsequent reliance on welfare, IMO would be to invest heavily in free childcare to the age of five, with nutritious meals provided.

Two reasons:

1. It doesn’t pay for a parent to work 40 hours a week for €450 if they immediately have to hand over €200 of that for childcare. The inflated cost of childcare in Ireland discourages people from working. If I was in that situation I would much prefer to live off the €203/week and spend all that time with my child than go out to work, get very little time with my child and be essentially no better off.

2. If a small child is growing up in an environment that is less than ideal; where abuse, addiction, mental health issues or poverty are rife, free childcare with a meal provides them a safe place to be looked after and nourished, socialized and shown a different way things can be. Kids growing up in difficult environments deserve that.

As stated before, 'full employment' is a bit of a fudge , due to the rampant abuse of the disability system, carers allowance and endless courses in full time education we only get to see the 'tip of the iceberg' in intentional unemployment. We get to full employment by allowing this rampant abuse, which is the governments problem to solve. Our labour force participation rate is a lot lower than most countries.
Labor Force Participation Rate in Ireland averaged 62.86% to 2019

Wanderer78

Eric Cartman wrote: »

As stated before, 'full employment' is a bit of a fudge , due to the rampant abuse of the disability system, carers allowance and endless courses in full time education we only get to see the 'tip of the iceberg' in intentional unemployment. We get to full employment by allowing this rampant abuse, which is the governments problem to solve. Our labour force participation rate is a lot lower than most countries.
Labor Force Participation Rate in Ireland averaged 62.86% to 2019

boring!

LegallyAbroad

Eric Cartman wrote: »

As stated before, 'full employment' is a bit of a fudge , due to the rampant abuse of the disability system, carers allowance and endless courses in full time education we only get to see the 'tip of the iceberg' in intentional unemployment. We get to full employment by allowing this rampant abuse, which is the governments problem to solve. Our labour force participation rate is a lot lower than most countries.
Labor Force Participation Rate in Ireland averaged 62.86% to 2019

According to the OECD Ireland's Labour Force Participation Rate is above average (79.4%).

Eric Cartman

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

According to the OECD Ireland's Labour Force Participation Rate is above average (79.4%).

Irelands labour force participation rate was at an all time high of 66.70 percent in the first quarter of 2007, it hasn't beaten that since.

KiKi III

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Irelands labour force participation rate was at an all time high of 66.70 percent in the first quarter of 2007, it hasn't beaten that since.

And in the US, the country you’d have us emulate, it was about 63% in 2019.

LegallyAbroad

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Irelands labour force participation rate was at an all time high of 66.70 percent in the first quarter of 2007, it hasn't beaten that since.

I'm working off the OECD stats. What are you working off?

https://data.oecd.org/emp/labour-force-participation-rate.htm

Eric Cartman

KiKi III wrote: »

And in the US, the country you’d have us emulate, it was about 63% in 2019.

I wouldn't emulate the US, even their welfare programs are too generous.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lfs/labourforcesurveylfsquarter42019/

in Q4 2019 there were 23,000 men and 31,000 women long term unemployed.

Of those persons not in the labour force, the number classified as being in the potential additional labour force was 98,700

Wanderer78

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I wouldn't emulate the US, even their welfare programs are too generous.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lfs/labourforcesurveylfsquarter42019/

in Q4 2019 there were 23,000 men and 31,000 women long term unemployed.

Of those persons not in the labour force, the number classified as being in the potential additional labour force was 98,700

hahahaha fcuk sake!

KiKi III

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I wouldn't emulate the US, even their welfare programs are too generous.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lfs/labourforcesurveylfsquarter42019/

in Q4 2019 there were 23,000 men and 31,000 women long term unemployed.

Of those persons not in the labour force, the number classified as being in the potential additional labour force was 98,700

So we’re in agreement that the number of people who are long-term unemployed is very, very small.

Can you point to any country worldwide that has a system with minimal/ no benefits and where society has improved as a result?

atticu

KiKi III wrote: »

So we’re in agreement that the number of people who are long-term unemployed is very, very small.

Can you point to any country worldwide that has a system with minimal/ no benefits and where society has improved as a result?

The long term unemployed figures do not include the people who do not want to work.

Wanderer78

atticu wrote: »

The long term unemployed figures do not include the people who do not want to work.

so they dont claim welfare?

ELM327

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so they dont claim welfare?

They probably don't claim JSA, more likely to have "sick"/disability pay for alcoholism or a "back pain".

KiKi III

ELM327 wrote: »

They probably don't claim JSA, more likely to have "sick"/disability pay for alcoholism or a "back pain".

Can you point to any evidence that a significant number of those on disability payments don’t deserve?

Most people I know who are or have been on it were very seriously ill or are permanently disabled. Stigmatising then based on the minority who might abuse the system is horrible.

ELM327

KiKi III wrote: »

Can you point to any evidence that a significant number of those on disability payments don’t deserve?

Most people I know who are or have been on it were very seriously ill or are permanently disabled. Stigmatising then based on the minority who might abuse the system is horrible.

Ireland has a higher prorata amount of people (along with UK) compared to the rest of europe.
Are we all disabled, or is it that we do less checks?

ELM327

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I wouldn't emulate the US, even their welfare programs are too generous.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lfs/labourforcesurveylfsquarter42019/

in Q4 2019 there were 23,000 men and 31,000 women long term unemployed.

Of those persons not in the labour force, the number classified as being in the potential additional labour force was 98,700

It's a good start though.
Time limits on welfare is a great idea, which those in power in this socialist banana republic dont want to introduce.

At this point, like begat like and all that, the social welfare neaveau riche class are a substantial voter base.

joxer1988

KiKi III wrote: »

So we’re in agreement that the number of people who are long-term unemployed is very, very small.

Can you point to any country worldwide that has a system with minimal/ no benefits and where society has improved as a result?

Canada. You get your healthcare and a job-benefit equivalent, that's it. Some co-op housing which typically an apartment block in less than prime locations, but definitely not a 3-bed semi for all wherever they want it, and much lower tolerance for ASB.

Wanderer78

ELM327 wrote: »

They probably don't claim JSA, more likely to have "sick"/disability pay for alcoholism or a "back pain".

so your more or less saying they more than likely have complex mental health issues with addiction problems, baring in mind the stigma with such issues, many, rather admitting they have psychological issues, will default to a common physical issue, i.e. back pain.

ELM327 wrote: »

Ireland has a higher prorata amount of people (along with UK) compared to the rest of europe.
Are we all disabled, or is it that we do less checks?

i believe we re not testing enough, i suspect most if not all long term unemployed have undiagnosed psychological issues

ELM327 wrote: »

It's a good start though.
Time limits on welfare is a great idea, which those in power in this socialist banana republic dont want to introduce.

At this point, like begat like and all that, the social welfare neaveau riche class are a substantial voter base.

what about making sure they re properly assessed for any complex psychological issues they may have, offer sufficient help if needed, train and educate for employment, community work or volunteering etc

again, we re a fairly average free market economy, we must certainly aint a socialist one, thank god

very few wealthy on the dole, if any, many have a fairly ****e life to be honest

mafitz

Eric Cartman wrote: »

fantastically for those who work and contribute, miserably for those who do not.... so how it should really. With the exception of access to healthcare, the US is great for almost anyone working above minimum wage.

Taking you lived there and experienced this, I lived there and there is no social help what so ever, no heath insurance no treatment, not the kind of environment i want to raise my family in or grow old. Canada has a more fairer system. I think we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater at times, before this pandemic our unemployed figures were near record lows, I agree that there are people scamming the system but that happens in all countries. If we could reduce these figures fine, but i'll rather see people scamming the system then keeping genuine people off entitled benefits.

Pinoy adventure

gailforecast wrote: »

How do figure that? My dad found himself unemployed for a grand total of 6 months, excluding 3 months during the pandemic. Both times he gladly undertook CE schemes.

Why do unemployed people “deserve” more money? Should our taxes go up to cover this?

CE schemes last 12 months not 6.
They deserve more because they need help as they are unemployed 🙄
No your taxes should not go up as the government were running a surplus pre covid 19.

gailforecast

Pinoy adventure wrote: »

CE schemes last 12 months not 6.
They deserve more because they need help as they are unemployed 🙄
No your taxes should not go up as the government were running a surplus pre covid 19.

You’re free to leave a CE scheme whenever you want.

They already get help to the tune of 200 a week plus HAP/housing.

If anything, tax cuts should be given to the middle class who pay for everything yet are entitled to both with said surplus. 200 quid with little to no costs for accommodation is more than enough.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

You’re free to leave a CE scheme whenever you want.

They already get help to the tune of 200 a week plus HAP/housing.

If anything, tax cuts should be given to the middle class who pay for everything yet are entitled to both with said surplus. 200 quid with little to no costs for accommodation is more than enough.

hahahaha, try it!

LegallyAbroad

ELM327 wrote: »

It's a good start though.
Time limits on welfare is a great idea, which those in power in this socialist banana republic dont want to introduce.

At this point, like begat like and all that, the social welfare neaveau riche class are a substantial voter base.

What happens when the time limit is up?

People just become homeless/starve?

That will end up costing the exchequer way more in other costs, such Health and Justice, and also lead to a loss of human resources as, at a minimum, you lose the productivity of children who grow up in such an environment.

Do you want better outcomes or do you want to take away things from people you don't believe are deserving?

RandomViewer

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Or maybe they are too lazy to work because the state does everything for them except wipe their arse.

Lots of mental health cases in unemployed, main reason they dont hold down a job,
There is something else that is overlooked in these dolebashing threads, there are a lot of people who are just slightly above special needs who were never properly assessed, they aren't mentally capable of holding down a job and are not limited enough to be in the disability service arena,

Wanderer78

RandomViewer wrote: »

Lots of mental health cases in unemployed, main reason they dont hold down a job,
There is something else that is overlooked in these dolebashing threads, there are a lot of people who are just slightly above special needs who were never properly assessed, they aren't mentally capable of holding down a job and are not limited enough to be in the disability service arena,

disorders such as developmental disorders, learning disabilities, mental health and addiction issues, personalty disorders and behavioral problems are common

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

hahahaha, try it!

I spend less than 200 a week now, it’s not that difficult. Aldi super 6, plus pasta/rice base. For a single person, 80 euro would by a weeks worth of groceries.

A healthy, balanced diet should generally cost only €57 per week, per adult.

If you have children, child allowance covers additional costs.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

I spend less than 200 a week now, it’s not that difficult. Aldi super 6, plus pasta/rice base. For a single person, 80 euro would by a weeks worth of groceries.

we all have different lives, if you re long term unemployed, theres a very good chance you have an addiction such as alcoholism, drugs(legal and illegal), nicotine, gambling, eating disorders etc etc etc

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we all have different lives, if you re long term unemployed, theres a very good chance you have an addiction such as alcoholism, drugs(legal and illegal), nicotine, gambling, eating disorders etc etc etc

And giving excessive amounts of cash to an alcoholic, gambling addict, or obese compulsive eater, is nothing short of enabling.

Bottom line is that current welfare rates more than cover basic needs. If someone is irresponsible with this cash, that’s their problem.