Hagia Sophia Istanbul turned back into a Mosque

suicide_circus

biko wrote: »

Just like the Kaaba, the Hagia Sofia belonged to another religion but is now used by Islam.

No church is safe - a Christian association called Friends of the Protestant Church in Berlin published a report on the conversion of ten churches in Germany into mosques 2019. It said the phenomenon was not new but it was repeated and deliberate. SRC

I suppose thats just a function of the decline of traditional christianity and the rise of Islam in Europe, if that concerns you, i'm afraid you're literally Hitler.

beggars_bush

biko wrote: »

Make Istanbul Constantinople again.

https://youtu.be/20uXjti9h4I

Hotblack Desiato

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Will they also remove the ladder that has been there for hundreds of years and no one was to touch? I dont think it is a step in the right direction but Muslim majority country will always do things that in the end favor themselves.

Turkey is a muslim majority country yes, but the modern state (succeeding the Ottoman Empire) founded by Ataturk was always intended to be a secular state i.e. everyone has freedom of worship and the government does not promote a particular religion.

Now Erdogan is busy reversing all that and taking his country further and further back into the dark ages.

It didn't seem too fanciful about 20 years ago that Turkey might eventually join the EU, it is impossible now and they are rapidly reversing away from civilised democratic norms.

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Muslims are all about Minority rights when they're the minority. Not so much when they're the majority.

Catholic church is all for a secular state in countries where it's a minority, not so much in the countries where it's a majority, they want to run the show for catholics and non-catholics alike...

biko wrote: »

Just like the Kaaba, the Hagia Sofia belonged to another religion but is now used by Islam.

There's a cathedral in Cordoba in Spain which used to be a mosque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque–Cathedral_of_Córdoba

No church is safe - a Christian association called Friends of the Protestant Church in Berlin published a report on the conversion of ten churches in Germany into mosques 2019. It said the phenomenon was not new but it was repeated and deliberate. SRC

So what. We have plenty of disused Protestant churches here converted into offices, apartments etc.

The mosque on South Circular Road in Dublin used to be a Protestant church. It's not like it was seized :rolleyes: it was sold.

The RCC seems determined to hang onto its underused properties at all costs - for now, anyway.

riclad

This was done because the ruling party wants to appeal to hard-line Muslims.
This is no ordinary Church its a very large building 100 s of years old. It's was built as a Christian church . Right now it's a museum, visited by Christians and Muslims.
Turkey used to be more secular country its being pushed further to a Muslim society by the government in order to get more votes.
It's a insult to Christians and non Muslims in Turkey.
Many church's in Ireland and the UK are closed and sold as they no longer have people going to church in the no needed
This is different its government action to
take over a building that is symbolic and was built by Christians .
It's like saying there's nothing we cannot do
to erase any symbol of Christian art or place that is open to anyone of any religion and make it into a mosque.
This would be like the Irish government selling the gpo and allowing it to be turned into a British
Supermarket.
It's not as if there's not a lot of mosques all over Turkey.
The present Turkish government is not noted for its respect for human rights.
As in many country's Christians are not being forced to leave or arrested but they don't recieve any official support because they are a minority.

WrenBoy

This wouldn't be such a big deal if it were becoming a Jewish Synagogue or Buddhist temple but a supposed dominance of islam in a country spells bad news for the other religions. Teachings in Islam teach the subjugation of other religions, this instruction is not present in the Jewish and Christian faiths.

ohnonotgmail

WrenBoy wrote: »

This wouldn't be such a big deal if it were becoming a Jewish Synagogue or Buddhist temple but a supposed dominance of islam in a country spells bad news for the other religions. Teachings in Islam teach the subjugation of other religions, this instruction is not present in the Jewish and Christian faiths.

islam is already the dominant faith in turkey

Yurt2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

islam is already the dominant faith in turkey

Wow. Thanks for the knowledge drop

ohnonotgmail

Yurt! wrote: »

Wow. Thanks for the knowledge drop

it is a bit silly to be complaining about increased islamic unfluence in a country that is already 99% muslim. especially concerning a building that was a mosque for 500 years up until only 85 years ago.

Yurt2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it is a bit silly to be complaining about increased islamic unfluence in a country that is already 99% muslim. especially concerning a building that was a mosque for 500 years up until only 85 years ago.

With apologies, but only someone with the most simplistic understanding of the relationship between the modern Turkish state and Islam would come up with the above post and shrug their shoulders. The dial has moved and it's not without huge controversies within and without Turkey and the region over the past couple of decades.

biko

Atatürk that founded modern Turkey, was secular.
Turkey is still a secular country (officially).

Since Erdoğan's Islamist-rooted "Justice and Development Party" (AKP) came into power in 2002 it's been downhill.

Turkey’s president has said he wants to create a “pious generation” to change the nation.
So the government is pouring money into schools that teach Islamic values.

Atatürk made Turkey modern, Erdogan wants to unmodernise it.

ohnonotgmail

biko wrote: »

Atatürk that founded modern Turkey, was secular.
Turkey is still a secular country (officially).

Since Erdoğan's Islamist-rooted "Justice and Development Party" (AKP) came into power in 2002 it's been downhill.

Turkey’s president has said he wants to create a “pious generation” to change the nation.
So the government is pouring money into schools that teach Islamic values.

Atatürk made Turkey modern, Erdogan wants to unmodernise it.

in the normal course of events the military would stage a coup and push the country back towards secularism. that failed miserably the last time they tried it but i wouldn't bet against them trying again.

ohnonotgmail

Yurt! wrote: »

With apologies, but only someone with the most simplistic understanding of the relationship between the modern Turkish state and Islam would come up with the above post and shrug their shoulders. The dial has moved and it's not without huge controversies within and without Turkey and the region over the past couple of decades.

with apologies, only somebody distracted by bright shiny things would be overly concerned by one building. Edrogan has been running a mosque building programme for a number of years now. Nobody outside turkey has given a monkeys about that but suddenly get aroused because it is the only building in turkey that they can name.

biko

Pope Francis is the latest religious leader to condemn Turkey’s decision to convert Hagia Sophia into a mosque.

“My thoughts go to Istanbul. I think of Hagia Sophia and I am very saddened,” he said during his weekly blessing in St. Peter’s Square.

https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/07/13/pope-francis-i-think-of-hagia-sophia-and-i-am-very-saddened/

WrenBoy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

with apologies, only somebody distracted by bright shiny things would be overly concerned by one building. Edrogan has been running a mosque building programme for a number of years now. Nobody outside turkey has given a monkeys about that but suddenly get aroused because it is the only building in turkey that they can name.

Its a massive symbolic statement.

ohnonotgmail

WrenBoy wrote: »

Its a massive symbolic statement.

thank you for repeating my point for me.

WrenBoy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

thank you for repeating my point for me.

:rolleyes: continuing your stellar level of discourse I see.

donaghs

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Turkey is a muslim majority country yes, but the modern state (succeeding the Ottoman Empire) founded by Ataturk was always intended to be a secular state i.e. everyone has freedom of worship and the government does not promote a particular religion.

Now Erdogan is busy reversing all that and taking his country further and further back into the dark ages.

It didn't seem too fanciful about 20 years ago that Turkey might eventually join the EU, it is impossible now and they are rapidly reversing away from civilised democratic norms.

Agree. And its four years since Erdogan crushed that bizarre (fake?) coup. Although the coup was more of an internal Islamist civil war, the secularists became the main target of the post-coup revenge.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Catholic church is all for a secular state in countries where it's a minority, not so much in the countries where it's a majority, they want to run the show for catholics and non-catholics alike...

In the past sure, hardly nowadays? Trying to think of what countries nowadays the Catholics Church imposing their will on everyone? In Poland, it seems to be the Catholic politicians, not the actual church.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There's a cathedral in Cordoba in Spain which used to be a mosque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque–Cathedral_of_Córdoba

And it was a Church before it was a mosque. Just saying.

mossie

donaghs wrote: »

Agree. And its four years since Erdogan crushed that bizarre (fake?) coup. Although the coup was more of an internal Islamist civil war, the secularists became the main target of the post-coup revenge.


In the past sure, hardly nowadays? Trying to think of what countries nowadays the Catholics Church imposing their will on everyone? In Poland, it seems to be the Catholic politicians, not the actual church.



And it was a Church before it was a mosque. Just saying.

There may or may not have been a church on the site pre the Moors, but the current building was never a church before becoming a mosque. The present church was built in the middle of the mosque after the reconquest of Spain by the Christians. It's an incredible building well worth a visit.

Hotblack Desiato

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it is a bit silly to be complaining about increased islamic unfluence in a country that is already 99% muslim. especially concerning a building that was a mosque for 500 years up until only 85 years ago.

Not really, it's been supposed to be a secular state since almost 100 years ago, but has taken a turn for the worse in the last few years

You might as well say the same thing about the Islamic revolution in Iran, or the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan, they were muslim dominated countries before these things happened...

Hotblack Desiato

donaghs wrote: »

In the past sure, hardly nowadays? Trying to think of what countries nowadays the Catholics Church imposing their will on everyone?

It's clear they'd like to though. You only have to think back to the two referendums in the last few years, the position of the RCC bishops was very clear, priests sermonising about the evils of gays and abortion, nasty leaflets in the back of the churches, No campaign groups heavily linked to the same hardcore of ultraconservative Catholic laity that have been trying to poison this place for the last 40 years (yes, 40 years ago there were people who thought Ireland was already far too liberal :rolleyes: )

Don't forget the anti-gay and anti-abortion propaganda in many schools, too. Schools which the church doesn't pay for, we do. They are desperate to hang onto control of the schools despite the spoof Diarmuid Martin comes out with.

The only difference between the past and today is that most people ignore what the RCC says.

Yakov P. Golyadkin

biko wrote: »

Turkey’s president has said he wants to create a “pious generation” to change the nation.
So the government is pouring money into schools that teach Islamic values.

Thankfully he appears to be failing miserably; the young are increasingly irreligious, or at least not religious in the way Erdoğan would like. That also applies to those in the state run religious schools.

Yakov P. Golyadkin

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

in the normal course of events the military would stage a coup and push the country back towards secularism. that failed miserably the last time they tried it but i wouldn't bet against them trying again.

Following the last 'coup attempt' the military was gutted of those felt to be less than fully loyal to Erdoğan. Sadly it seems the military is now under his control. Anecdotally the police are also increasingly loyal to Erdoğan and he recently created an auxiliary force of sorts - there has long been a 'night watchman' force who would patrol and sought to combat crime by announcing their presence, they had no real power but in the last month or so they have been armed and are now allowed to detain people for the purposes of identifying them.

donaghs

Yakov P. Golyadkin wrote: »

Following the last 'coup attempt' the military was gutted of those felt to be less than fully loyal to Erdoğan. Sadly it seems the military is now under his control..

The Turkish military was already gutted of moderates and secularists before the "coup" 4 years ago.

Erdogan's people invented a military secularist plot in 2003: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan)

Promoting Islamists in their place seems to have led to an Islamist split and the 2016 coup shambles. Erdogan easily crushed that and then went on to further strengthen his power.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The only difference between the past and today is that most people ignore what the RCC says.

In the developing world the RCC pushes a hard anti-abortion and anti-homosexuality line - in several Latin American countries a woman can be jailed for having a miscarriage unless she can prove it wasn't an abortion. In countries like Uganda, RCC was at the forefront pushing for the recently introduced laws to persecute gay people. In Poland they are pushing a hard nationalist, anti-gay, anti-liberal line, "LGBT free zones" are being established, and the RCC is trying to get Poland's already very limited abortion law removed entirely.

Where they have the power, they're not shy about using it, and in other countries where they're the dominant influence, Protestant Evangelicals/Anglicans are doing the same. It's quite possible African and American churches will split off from the Anglican communion in the next few years, because they see the Church of Ireland, Church of England etc. as far too tolerant.