Has America become relegated to third world status in recent years?

mr_fegelien

It seems that though the US is still considered a superpower, there are a growing number of people around the world who no longer view living there in a favorable manner. In fact many people I know (even relatives who live in Africa) say they'd prefer to live in European countries, Australia, NZ, Canada.

I wonder, where did it all go wrong? America is only 240 years old and life in the country was arguably the best after WWII between 1940-60 but 60 years later, things have gone completely sour. Healthcare is non-existent, Families have to work two jobs, The justice system is ****ed up, Mass shooting, riots everywhere.

Is this the end for the American Empire?

YellowBucket

It’s just going though a period of temporary insanity. I suspect the Coronavirus response, or lack there of, will destroy the populist politics for several generations.

Unfortunately there’s likely to be an absolutely grim few months ahead in the US.

They need to cop on and snap out of it and I suspect they will, eventually.

As for its role in the world, it’s also about other economic entities re-emerging (Europe) and growing rapidly (Asia). When the US was in its most dominant position, Europe was really still only digging itself out of World War II, the Cold War was brewing and peaking, meanwhile most Asian countries were only beginning their industrialisation journey.

So really it’s a changed world with more poles of power.

The US needs to decide to reengage with the world again, in a positive way. It isn’t really able to just throw weight around like it used to, nor does it have any serious moral authority anymore.

Eric Cartman

They have the worlds best healthcare for those who can afford it and they subsidise development costs for most of our medicines and surgery techniques around the world.

Its still a great place to live for most. As good as a lot of european countries.

A bit of a problem with bullying other countries but if theyre a ‘third world’ country, so is china, russia etc.. streets ahead of almost any other country with that kind of population

Mr. Karate

No. Economically the US was thriving until the shutdown. I believe they added jobs in May despite major cities like NYC still being locked down.

YellowBucket

They’ve the world’s most expensive healthcare, which has been growing more and more expensive every year, while producing no better outcomes and even a falling life expectancy.

If you compare US and wealthy EU countries healthcare spending in $ per capita, they were very similar in the 1970s and 80s and then the US starts to rocket upwards in the 1990s.

The money is following where the profits are being made and unfortunately, that isn’t areas like public health, which is where COVID-19 battles are being won or lost.

In general European systems are probably more balanced in that regard.

The cost of healthcare in the USA is heading rapidly toward being unsustainable. It needs to be be totally reformed or it will end up being too expensive to function and the costs, so far, really haven’t even plateaued.

It’s a domestic political issue which will ultimately come to a head when that does happen, probably not that far way.

But to describe the US as a third world country is nonsense. It’s absolutely not. It’s just differently organised to Western Europe & the EU in terms of social and political priorities. In many respects it’s more like pre WWII Europe. A lot of the social democratic models in Europe emerged in reforms after the war and there weren’t really the same pressures to do so in the US.

Both places provide opportunity for an extremely good quality of life, Europe just places more emphasis on providing social safety nets & makes more effort to redistribute wealth around the economy for social reasons.

Populists like Trump and his kind of politics happen. They also can melt away again. Plenty of European countries, Italy for example, have been through similarly low quality leadership.

My view of it is that the US is going to have a horrible 2020 and some very hard lessons will be learned.

uptherebels

Eric Cartman wrote: »

They have the worlds best healthcare for those who can afford it and they subsidise development costs for most of our medicines and surgery techniques around the world.

Its still a great place to live for most. As good as a lot of european countries.

A bit of a problem with bullying other countries but if theyre a ‘third world’ country, so is china, russia etc.. streets ahead of almost any other country with that kind of population

Source for susidising development costs!
And by what metric do you consider it as good as alot if European countries?

YellowBucket

uptherebels wrote: »

Source for susidising development costs!
And by what metric do you consider it as good as alot if European countries?

It’s just a regularly trotted out Trump line to conflate being ripped off with jingoistic rhetoric because they’re paying way over the odds for a lot of things, and that’s being driven by lobbying & politics.

The old blame everyone else approach that populists love.

Harry Palmr

Another term of Trump and they'll be classified as an "undeveloping nation"

suicide_circus

a million documented plus unknown qualities of undocumented immigrants make the US their home every year. Cant be that bad.

YellowBucket

suicide_circus wrote: »

a million documented plus unknown qualities of undocumented immigrants make the US their home every year. Cant be that bad.

Less attractive than than the EU then. 2.4 million immigrants (documented) to the EU-27 (excluding UK) in 2018 and roughly 672,000 people becoming citizens of member states.

EU population 445 million (excluding U.K., which left this year)
Pop USA : 328 million (so far, no states have left ... )

Harry Palmr

suicide_circus wrote: »

a million documented plus unknown qualities of undocumented immigrants make the US their home every year. Cant be that bad.

They go north because the USA is still better than the Republic of Banana Republic.

hotmail.com

Parts of the US are and always have been third world. They don't provide health care on a universal basis and only provide very basic social welfare for their poorest citizens.

YellowBucket

hotmail.com wrote: »

Parts of the US are and always have been third world. They don't provide health care on a universal basis and only provide very basic social welfare for their poorest citizens.

That’s not 3rd world though. It’s 1st world & rich but with social values of the 19th century.

hotmail.com

YellowBucket wrote: »

That’s not 3rd world though. It’s 1st world & rich but with social values of the 19th century.

Same thing?

Brussels Sprout

mr_fegelien wrote: »

and life in the country was arguably the best after WWII between 1940-60

Not if you were black in the segregated south it wasn't.
Not if you were a homosexual who was forced to live a closeted life for fear of arrest or attack.
Not if you were a woman who wanted a life beyond domestic duties.

I don't disagree that the USA has lost its way as a country but let's not pretend that the post-war era were halycon days for all of society.


As for why it has lost it's way. I can think of 3 events in particular from relatively recent times that are at the root of a lot of the issues:

1. Reagan's slashing of taxes for the wealthy under the banner of "trickle down economics" started the country down a path where it now ranks as the worst country in the OECD for income inequality.
2. In tandem with this, the elimination of the FCC fairness doctrine in 1987, allowed for the creation of partisan media outlets to emerge. These more so than anything else are fuelling the division in the country to this day.
3. Finally, the Citizen's United supreme court ruling in 2010 has been an utter disaster for democracy in that country. This was the ruling that allows wealthy donors to inject unlimited amounts of money into political campaigns via the use of Super PACs.

Put that all together and you have the current scenario where billionaires are able to use their money to influence the population via partisan media and politicians via campaign donations. This typically leads the general population pitted against each other over social issues while the laws are changed to help the rich siphon more and more money out of the economy.


The USA is not a developing country but on its current path it's going to end up being more like one for a larger and larger amount of its citizens.

Quantum Erasure

South America probably

YellowBucket

The US is going through a strange period. In many ways its political systems are more like those you’d find in Latin America and parts of Africa - full executive presidency with relatively few limits on power.

Basically all other (almost all) developed democracies use some form of parliamentary system, often with various flavours of proportional representation. Even France is a modified quasi presidential system. The presidential powers are much more moderated than in the US.

For most of the history of the US, it has relied on the fact that the president would be someone who would always act in a “presidential” manner. There was an assumption that he or she would be someone who would fulfil that role with a certain degree of gravitas, dignity, competence and would have a temperament and even intellect suited to the office. Not only that but most presidents have at least attempted to become bigger than politics and reach out to the whole nation.

Then along came their first serious populist in 2017. He’s been utterly partisan, he doesn’t care what he does as long as he gets his way and he has driven a bust through all the norms and assumed limits of how the presidency works.

The system of checks and balances have been shown to largely be not worth the paper they’re written, as they simply have not worked.

Now the US looks like many other full presidential executive systems - an unstable country, led by a populist who is driving total chaos and governing on a whim, funnelling money and influence into his family and governing based on whatever whim comes into his head.

It’s just become a lot more like some of its more chaotic South American neighbours.

It probably needs to dilute the presidential and even at state level gubernatorial powers and rebalance them in favour of the legislatures.

hotmail.com

YellowBucket wrote: »

The US is going through a strange period. In many ways its political systems are more like those you’d find in Latin America and parts of Africa - full executive presidency with relatively few limits on power.

Basically all other (almost all) developed democracies use some form of parliamentary system, often with various flavours of proportional representation. Even France is a modified quasi presidential system. The presidential powers are much more moderated than in the US.

For most of the history of the US, it has relied on the fact that the president would be someone who would always act in a “presidential” manner. There was an assumption that he or she would be someone who would fulfil that role with a certain degree of gravitas, dignity, competence and would have a temperament and even intellect suited to the office. Not only that but most presidents have at least attempted to become bigger than politics and reach out to the whole nation.

Then along came their first serious populist in 2017. He’s been utterly partisan, he doesn’t care what he does as long as he gets his way and he has driven a bust through all the norms and assumed limits of how the presidency works.

The system of checks and balances have been shown to largely be not worth the paper they’re written, as they simply have not worked.

Now the US looks like many other full presidential executive systems - an unstable country, led by a populist who is driving total chaos and governing on a whim, funnelling money and influence into his family and governing based on whatever whim comes into his head.

It’s just become a lot more like some of its more chaotic South American neighbours.

It probably needs to dilute the presidential and even at state level gubernatorial powers and rebalance them in favour of the legislatures.

As stated above, the most influential US president of the past 50 years was Reagan.

He moved America further to the right, believing in even lower taxes and an even smaller government. His biggest achievement was not only convincing the Republicans of this ideology but also the Democrats.

Trump has not changed this system. Most of the criticisms of Trump revolve around style - being unpresidential and just saying whatever comes into his head. Great for headlines and the drama but whether he will leave a lasting imprint the way Reagan did is unclear at the moment.

Eric Cartman

hotmail.com wrote: »

As stated above, the most influential US president of the past 50 years was Reagan.

He moved America further to the right, believing in even lower taxes and an even smaller government. His biggest achievement was not only convincing the Republicans of this ideology but also the Democrats.

Trump has not changed this system. Most of the criticisms of Trump revolve around style - being unpresidential and just saying whatever comes into his head. Great for headlines and the drama but whether he will leave a lasting imprint the way Reagan did is unclear at the moment.

Raegan was and still is Americas greatest modern president. America had a lot more backbone then.

threeball

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Raegan was and still is Americas greatest modern president. America had a lot more backbone then.

Reagan just cemented the position that America is a country run by the wealthy for the wealthy. Its a great place to live if you can manage to break in to this bracket that makes up 10 to 15% of the population. The rest are either busting their balls to stay afloat whilst living on credit or worse again living in 3rd world conditions and living in mini war zones.

Its an incredibly broken country that I cannot see heal as the opposing sides are so far apart in ideology and so great in number. Countries with demographics like that generally don't survive, they splinter, mostly violently.

joseywhales

I've lived and worked in Ireland, UK, Canada and now USA(collecting passports). Theres no comparison financially, I've never been paid more or taxed less than here in the us. Once you have the income, the quality of life is the highest I've experienced. I would say finding healthy food can be a bit more challenging. I do miss Irish veg(which is grown locally)and the quality of Irish beef and lamb. You can find farmers markets here but it's hit and miss. Also the US and canada are spectacular for nature compared to ireland, hiking, boating biking skiing, it's pretty amazing.

Brian Hartman

It's the most economically, militarily and culturally dominant world power that has existed since the British Empire.

Maybe some bitter lefties think it's a declining power but it ain't so.

threeball

joseywhales wrote: »

I've lived and worked in Ireland, UK, Canada and now USA(collecting passports). Theres no comparison financially, I've never been paid more or taxed less than here in the us. Once you have the income, the quality of life is the highest I've experienced. I would say finding healthy food can be a bit more challenging. I do miss Irish veg(which is grown locally)and the quality of Irish beef and lamb. You can find farmers markets here but it's hit and miss. Also the US and canada are spectacular for nature compared to ireland, hiking, boating biking skiing, it's pretty amazing.

Its a continent. Hardly surprising there's a bit more to see. No single state in the US would have the scenery or diversity we have. Lots of them have next to nothing to see.

joseywhales

threeball wrote: »

Its a continent. Hardly surprising there's a bit more to see. No single state in the US would have the scenery or diversity we have. Lots of them have next to nothing to see.

I would agree, I love Ireland first amongst all others because it is my home and it is an amazingly country with great culture and people and natural beauty. However the deforestation of Ireland is the biggest travesty and our current land usage of farming rocky soil for pittance in the less fertile terrain is .....strange, would love to see more wilderness. I also agree there are boring parts of the USA but I would never live there.

Also I would argue that California, Texas, Colorado, Oregan have more natural beauty and diversity than Ireland unfortunately but that a matter of taste

shesty

joseywhales wrote: »

I've lived and worked in Ireland, UK, Canada and now USA(collecting passports). Theres no comparison financially, I've never been paid more or taxed less than here in the us. Once you have the income, the quality of life is the highest I've experienced. I would say finding healthy food can be a bit more challenging. I do miss Irish veg(which is grown locally)and the quality of Irish beef and lamb. You can find farmers markets here but it's hit and miss. Also the US and canada are spectacular for nature compared to ireland, hiking, boating biking skiing, it's pretty amazing.

It's a beautiful country, geographically.However for social (and lately political) reasons, I would never consider living there.I would rather pay more taxes and live in a country with some sort of social conscience towards its citizens (and yes, the problems that come along with that), than in the US.I never wanted to bring up kids in a country that thinks metal detectors in schools and kids doing drills for potential mass shootings is normal.The food is not great and fresh stuff is very difficult to come by.It is very insular - worse than here -and all in all, it's a nice place to visit but not to live in, in my eyes.And I have been there quite a bit.I wouldn't quite class it as being third world though.

mr_fegelien

Would you say that the poor have more difficulty breaking out of poverty in America or Ireland?

Brian Hartman

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Would you say that the poor have more difficulty breaking out of poverty in America or Ireland?

The poor in Ireland don't have to break out of poverty. You can spend your life on welfare.

Brussels Sprout

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Would you say that the poor have more difficulty breaking out of poverty in America or Ireland?

Generally, upward social migration is impeded by wealth inequality in a country.
The wealth inequality in the USA makes it more difficult to break out of poverty.

The Planet Money podcast featured a study that showed that it was more difficult to go from the bottom income quadrant to the top in USA than it was in several other OECD countries.

This flies in the face of what Americans are told about themselves with the concept of "The American Dream". In reality the country is full of road-blocks and land-mines for the poor in getting ahead:

• Very high cost of third level education
• Large variation in quality of primary & secondary level schools between different socio-economic areas
• High cost of Health Care (often leading to bankruptcies in those without health insurance - who tend to be poorer). You can see this trend a lot with people setting up Go-Fund Me pages to try and get procedures or medicine that would be covered in most countries
• The erosion of the power of labour unions over the past 50 years.

In fact, "The American Dream" is a useful cudgel for the wealthy in the USA as people tend to assume if they don't make it that it's entirely their own fault. In reality, it's far more complex than that.

joseywhales

shesty wrote: »

It's a beautiful country, geographically.However for social (and lately political) reasons, I would never consider living there.I would rather pay more taxes and live in a country with some sort of social conscience towards its citizens (and yes, the problems that come along with that), than in the US.I never wanted to bring up kids in a country that thinks metal detectors in schools and kids doing drills for potential mass shootings is normal.The food is not great and fresh stuff is very difficult to come by.It is very insular - worse than here -and all in all, it's a nice place to visit but not to live in, in my eyes.And I have been there quite a bit.I wouldn't quite class it as being third world though.

I have similar social concerns however I will point out that the us is a very diverse country, the problems are not ubiquitous among all states. For example, my state, Maine, has never had a school shooting and does not have metal detectors deployed in schools there. Honestly, with a change of accent you could easily think you were in Ireland in the rural (most of) parts of Maine.

Manic Moran

mr_fegelien wrote: »

It seems that though the US is still considered a superpower, there are a growing number of people around the world who no longer view living there in a favorable manner. In fact many people I know (even relatives who live in Africa) say they'd prefer to live in European countries, Australia, NZ, Canada.

If they're living around the world, even in Africa, what's their grounds for understanding what it's like to live here, which isn't around the world or in Africa?

I'm quite happy here and am not about to move back to Europe. Yes, healthcare costs are in dire need of rectifying, and yes, our effectively-two-party system is doing a crappy job of representing the population at large with increasing levels of tribalism.

There is, however, much more to living here than worrying about hospital bills. I am under no uncertainty that my quality of life in the US is better than it would have been had I stayed in Ireland.

Oh, as to the food, it depends on where you are. West Coast will nail Asian food like you wouldn't believe. You may think you have good Chinese or Vietnamese near you in Ireland, you probably don't. Then again, Texas has atrocious Asian, but kills it on BBQ or Eastern European foods. I live in a UNESCO "World City of Gastronomy", how many are in Ireland?

NIMAN

I think a few on here would need to look up the definition of a third world country.

Many of the same folk regularly refer to Ireland as third world as well.