Has America become relegated to third world status in recent years?

Ultima Thule

We are in a moment in time where things are what we say they are, not what they really are. I guess US somehow being a 3rd world country is one of them.

Kaybaykwah

threeball wrote: »

Its a continent. Hardly surprising there's a bit more to see. No single state in the US would have the scenery or diversity we have. Lots of them have next to nothing to see.

I love Ireland, don't get me wrong, but NY State is a relatively small state next to Quebec where I live and is bigger than Ireland and has great geographical diversity. California has an exquisite coastline and an incredible variety of climates. Ireland's big plus is in its historical depth, not so much in its geographic diversity.

Hannibal36

YellowBucket wrote: »

The US is going through a strange period. In many ways its political systems are more like those you’d find in Latin America and parts of Africa - full executive presidency with relatively few limits on power.

Basically all other (almost all) developed democracies use some form of parliamentary system, often with various flavours of proportional representation. Even France is a modified quasi presidential system. The presidential powers are much more moderated than in the US.

For most of the history of the US, it has relied on the fact that the president would be someone who would always act in a “presidential” manner. There was an assumption that he or she would be someone who would fulfil that role with a certain degree of gravitas, dignity, competence and would have a temperament and even intellect suited to the office. Not only that but most presidents have at least attempted to become bigger than politics and reach out to the whole nation.

Then along came their first serious populist in 2017. He’s been utterly partisan, he doesn’t care what he does as long as he gets his way and he has driven a bust through all the norms and assumed limits of how the presidency works.

The system of checks and balances have been shown to largely be not worth the paper they’re written, as they simply have not worked.

Now the US looks like many other full presidential executive systems - an unstable country, led by a populist who is driving total chaos and governing on a whim, funnelling money and influence into his family and governing based on whatever whim comes into his head.

It’s just become a lot more like some of its more chaotic South American neighbours.

It probably needs to dilute the presidential and even at state level gubernatorial powers and rebalance them in favour of the legislatures.

This left wing narrative that Trump is destroying the country sounds like it come straight from CNN.

Again i don't love Trump at all and don't support him in any way whatsoever but for Americans he has been a good President.Liberal Europe or the rest of the World might not love him but he has been good for Americans compared with previous Presidents.

He isn't driving any chaos,the media have completely lost all sense of reality and are taking people along on their fantasies.I used to think FOX News was hilarious way back,but CNN has gone completely off the deep end now too.The Sci-fi channel would be a more apt name for CNN nowadays,these are the people driving chaos.

Trump just wants to keep tweeting,making money and being President he has no real designs on creating chaos or destroying anything,he just does what his backers tell him to do.When he goes too far they reign him in when they want him out tweeting annoying people they let him off his leash,but he himself has very little say in anything,to believe otherwise is naive.

ILoveYourVibes

Hannibal36 wrote: »

T
Again i don't love Trump at all and don't support him in any way whatsoever but for Americans he has been a good President.

:pac:

Overheal

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

I love Ireland, don't get me wrong, but NY State is a relatively small state next to Quebec where I live and is bigger than Ireland and has great geographical diversity. California has an exquisite coastline and an incredible variety of climates. Ireland's big plus is in its historical depth, not so much in its geographic diversity.

Just in SC you have coastal island communities, marshes, grassland, valleys, gullies, mountain ranges, waterfalls, countless acres of forest, wetland, prairie, hills, lakes, it’s easily as diverse, with the upstate in particular making you feel as though it’s just a warmer version of the majority of Ireland. Not to belittle Ireland’s diversity, it is diverse between places like Kerry or the Burren, Lough Derg, the east coast, the giants causeway, etc.

ILoveYourVibes

Overheal wrote: »

Just in SC you have coastal island communities, marshes, grassland, valleys, gullies, mountain ranges, waterfalls, countless acres of forest, wetland, prairie, hills, lakes, it’s easily as diverse, with the upstate in particular making you feel as though it’s just a warmer version of the majority of Ireland. Not to belittle Ireland’s diversity, it is diverse between places like Kerry or the Burren, Lough Derg, the east coast, the giants causeway, etc.

He has a point.

Hannibal36

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

:pac:

Their economy had been booming before Covid,he didn't start any more wars causing death for American soldiers.

Was life so much better under Bush or Obama the previous 16 years?I would say no,but i guess its an opinion.

ILoveYourVibes

Hannibal36 wrote: »

Their economy had been booming before Covid,he didn't start any more wars causing death for American soldiers.

Was life so much better under Bush or Obama the previous 16 years?I would say no,but i guess its an opinion.

:pac:

Did you just Shoulda Coulda Woulda corona virus? IF only ..i would have ..in another reality..THIS is reality

This is reality.

Also Trump has nothing to do with the economy being ok before. But he sure has something to do with it tanking now.

Hannibal36

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

:pac:

Did you just Shoulda Coulda Woulda corona virus? IF only ..i would have ..in another reality..THIS is reality

This is reality.

Also Trump has nothing to do with the economy being ok before. But he sure has something to do with it tanking now.

I was just saying on the face of it,for people that blame him for everything the economy had been doing well.

Personally I don't really give him credit for any of it,good or bad,he is just a figurehead.I do be amazed at the amount of intellectuals who genuinely believe he does anything other than tweet and hold rallies.

I also don't see what he's doing now to cause the economy to tank,not enough face masks?dunno how Democrats can with say with a straight face that Covid was handled badly by Trump considering how Cuomo handled things in NY and some of their other democrat states the same.

But I do believe how badly they can make him look in regards the virus is the only thing they got to stop him romping home in the election,BLM just strengthened his position no matter what the polls say but Covid is what this election is gonna hinge on,hopefully when they done their election some normality will be resumed worldwide.

ChelseaRentBoy

No. Still a great country.

ChelseaRentBoy

Hannibal36 wrote: »

Their economy had been booming before Covid,he didn't start any more wars causing death for American soldiers.

Was life so much better under Bush or Obama the previous 16 years?I would say no,but i guess its an opinion.

It's one most lefties will ever agree with. To them Obama was a Saint and orange man bad.

Wanderer78

mr_fegelien wrote:

Is this the end for the American Empire?

Quite possibly, the neoliberal/neoclassical era has been it's 'debt' nail!

Wanderer78

Hannibal36 wrote:

Their economy had been booming before Covid,he didn't start any more wars causing death for American soldiers.

The economy of the minority was booming, for the majority it wasn't, markets truly only represent the economy of the minority

ILoveYourVibes

Hannibal36 wrote: »

Personally I don't really give him credit for any of it,good or bad,he is just a figurehead.I do be amazed at the amount of intellectuals who genuinely believe he does anything other than tweet and hold rallies.
.

You are forgetting that he lines his back pocket.

jam_mac_jam

No it's not a third world country, remotely. It's still the most powerful and influential country in the world with a huge military.

It's coming to the end of its superpower status in future years and its its likely to loose it's power to China, although I hope it doesn't.

Not remotely near a third world country even if some of the poorest live in third world conditions.

volchitsa

joseywhales wrote: »

I've lived and worked in Ireland, UK, Canada and now USA(collecting passports). Theres no comparison financially, I've never been paid more or taxed less than here in the us. Once you have the income, the quality of life is the highest I've experienced. I would say finding healthy food can be a bit more challenging. I do miss Irish veg(which is grown locally)and the quality of Irish beef and lamb. You can find farmers markets here but it's hit and miss. Also the US and canada are spectacular for nature compared to ireland, hiking, boating biking skiing, it's pretty amazing.

I think that depends where you live and on your personal situation though. I lived for 2 years in Chicago (well paid ex pat job for O/H but I couldn’t work which made a difference to income) and I’m general people with children were far worse off than in most European countries because of how the tax system works.

MonkstownHoop

Harsh on the Third world tbh

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are forgetting that he lines his back pocket.

And you're forgetting that they all do so. It's been a part of American politics for decades. All US presidents have left office with far more than when they entered. The same can be said for their administration. The system of lobbyists and the connection with the corporations ensures that all US political leadership will "benefit".

"The Obamas are worth 30 times more than when they entered the White House"

"Historically, the presidency acts like an elevator, taking officeholders from lower to higher tiers of wealth, often beginning immediately upon leaving the Oval Office. According to the data, each of the last eight presidents had a higher net worth after vacating the office. Bill Clinton has done the most to cash in during his post-political career"

The above being the legal side, but consider the Clinton charity scam, it's easy to see that they make money from all manner of sources.

"In April 2015, The New York Times reported that, during the acquisition, the family foundation of Uranium One's chairman made $2.35 million in donations to the Clinton Foundation. The donations which were legal were not publicly disclosed by the Clintons, despite a prior agreement to do so. In addition, a Russian investment bank with ties to the Kremlin and which was promoting Uranium One stock paid Bill Clinton $500,000 for a speech in Moscow shortly after the acquisition was announced.[1][20]"

People like to make out that Trump is so much worse, but apart from being a buffoon on media, he's not really that much different. They all had their agendas to play, and divisions to enlarge.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

And you're forgetting that they all do so. It's been a part of American politics for decades. All US presidents have left office with far more than when they entered. The same can be said for their administration. The system of lobbyists and the connection with the corporations ensures that all US political leadership will "benefit".

"The Obamas are worth 30 times more than when they entered the White House"

"Historically, the presidency acts like an elevator, taking officeholders from lower to higher tiers of wealth, often beginning immediately upon leaving the Oval Office. According to the data, each of the last eight presidents had a higher net worth after vacating the office. Bill Clinton has done the most to cash in during his post-political career"

The above being the legal side, but consider the Clinton charity scam, it's easy to see that they make money from all manner of sources.

"In April 2015, The New York Times reported that, during the acquisition, the family foundation of Uranium One's chairman made $2.35 million in donations to the Clinton Foundation. The donations which were legal were not publicly disclosed by the Clintons, despite a prior agreement to do so. In addition, a Russian investment bank with ties to the Kremlin and which was promoting Uranium One stock paid Bill Clinton $500,000 for a speech in Moscow shortly after the acquisition was announced.[1][20]"

People like to make out that Trump is so much worse, but apart from being a buffoon on media, he's not really that much different. They all had their agendas to play, and divisions to enlarge.

the only difference with trump is, hes potentially the most dangerous that has been in office in living memory

I think people have kinda lost perspective when it comes to the US.

It's still an incredibly influential nation with a strong economic backbone, and a wide range of private assets through it's established wealthy class of citizens. On the face of things, the US is still strong. It's military is still the best equipped and trained, even if it hasn't been particularly successful... although that's more a failure of the politicial leadership to apply the military to duties it shouldn't have been involved in.

The problem for the US is tied to it's society. It's cohesion is incredibly weak. They've been playing identity politics for so long that it's starting to tear the country apart, with little clear vision of what it means to be American. The racial and minority problems are a major issue, but there are other problems with the lack of investment in many parts of the country, which has led to pockets of almost independent feeling among those left behind.

The political side of the US has degenerated into a cesspit of infighting, corruption, and pandering. This is not Trump. It's been happening since Bush Jnr, and Obama widened many aspects of it (Yeah, I know many here worship him). Trump is merely a symptom of the infection within their system, but it's worth remembering what Bush Jnr was actually like. I think a lot of people have forgotten the sheer amount of "oops" moments he was involved in.

Morally, the US is on shaky ground. They've lost the white knight reputation that they'd spent so much effort creating after WW2, and many nations are understandably wary of US involvement in their affairs. Which weakens the US ability to project power over distance.

The US is nowhere close to being a third world nation, but it is a nation in decline. Not from an economic standpoint (although there are serious issues there too, especially with regards to Oil), but the real problem is their society. It's so divided. The entitlement culture we've seen develop is also a major concern, along with the destructive aspect of activist groups.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the only difference with trump is, hes potentially the most dangerous that has been in office in living memory

Based on what? Yup. Nothing. Apart from posturing and stupid remarks, he hasn't actually done anything dangerous.

Bush Jnr started a war that has only recently begun to wind down.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

Based on what? Yup. Nothing. Apart from posturing and stupid remarks, he hasn't actually done anything dangerous.

Bush Jnr started a war that has only recently begun to wind down.

and this is where it becomes scary, you d be surprised of the amount of intelligent well informed people, such as yourself, believe this! is america more or less stable since trump entered office?

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and this is where it becomes scary, you d be surprised of the amount of intelligent well informed people, such as yourself, believe this! is america more or less stable since trump entered office?

Less. Definitely less. Although I'm unwilling to pin the responsibility entirely on him. Trump inherited many problems that had come about during other presidents terms of office.

"If views of some issues changed markedly during Obama’s time in office, views of the government did not. Americans’ trust in the federal government remained mired at historic lows. Elected officials were held in such low regard, in fact, that more than half of the public said in a fall 2015 survey that “ordinary Americans” would do a better job of solving national problems.

Americans felt disillusioned with the way Washington responded to the financial meltdown of 2008. In 2015, seven-in-ten Americans said that the government’s policies following the recession generally did little or nothing to help middle-class people. A roughly equal share said the government’s post-recession policies did a great deal or a fair amount to help large banks and financial institutions."

You say that it's scary, but I find it scarier the way people are ignoring what the US was like under Obama, and instead seeking to pass the blame on the Trump. There's a definite feeling that there is an attempt to whitewash the past so that Trump is elevated to the position of the Arch Villain.

Kaybaykwah

When Chump's handlers get the message it's time to invade or push the button down, they will steer him to do so. He is very much the puppet of right wing interests, and no better, no worse than what came before him, just not driven by the same ideological gobdygoop. He is in it for him and his family, playing the king, and US presidents have quite a lot of leeway in powers that don't need to be checked by the two houses.


There are many ways to look at the US' performance in economic terms. The taxation is high in some states; New Jersey, almost inexistent in others; New Hampshire. The US federal debt is through the roof, and they don't have a universal health system to show for it and their Higher Ed is very expensive. Cities like Chicago and the state of Illinois are on the verge of bankruptcy, and the per capita debt for New York City
is looney tunes.

For a country that boasts the benefits of a hands off policy of government over the economy, it certainly comes off as anythimg but.

shesty

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Would you say that the poor have more difficulty breaking out of poverty in America or Ireland?

Hard to know, that is a very difficult question to answer.I think it might be easier to grab your chances and run with them in America, on the surface.I mean though, you might have to work 2 or 3 jobs for years to work your way up, or before you get a chance to break through somehow.But once you have made it up, I think they just accept you ad having money therefore you are acceptable, probably moreso than we do (well, up to a certain level,that might not be the case in the types of circles that you would find at the top of the Reuplican party or similar).

But equally I think "poor" is a very relative term, particularly here.Education is accessible and encouraged here, there are many, many State supports.The huge difference would be that we do not pay fees the way they do in the States for third level education, which is often the key here for people to pull themselves up the ladder.On the other hand, you could be poor in the States and literally have no access to healthcare or higher education or anything else, whereas here you will always have access, of some sort, without massive bills hanging over your head.

It is a very tricky question, and one without a very straightforward answer.The pros of one country are the cons of the other, in many cases.

normakelle

What is so great about obama, He did nothing for usa except stir up racial divide. BLM movement started on his watch and he encouraged it. He was the hope for the future of america but he only made it worse.
We are constantly fed a narrative by the media here in Ireland Obama as some kind of messiah and Trump the devil incarnate. There are lots of White people afraid in Usa to speak out as they will be targeted as racists.
Follow the money Who funds the BLM organisation? Lots of their followers are college kids brainwashed by liberal professors just waiting to be offended by everything they don't agree with. Willing to ruin people lives, like sheep believing what they are told Every life matters regardless of colour but it seems that there is a portion of society that believe this isn't so.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Eric Cartman wrote: »

They have the worlds best healthcare for those who can afford it and they subsidise development costs for most of our medicines and surgery techniques around the world.

Its still a great place to live for most. As good as a lot of european countries.

A bit of a problem with bullying other countries but if theyre a ‘third world’ country, so is china, russia etc.. streets ahead of almost any other country with that kind of population

China is a third world country, and Russia arguably is too.

osarusan

Stupid thread title and question really (no surprise given the OP).

Does it have some real problems? Of course, every country does.

Is it third world? Of course not.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

China is a third world country, and Russia arguably is too.

Actually, both China and Russia are second world nations. Not third world.

"The United States, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Western European nations and their allies represented the First World, while the post-Soviet Union countries, China, Cuba, and their allies represented the Second World. This terminology provided a way of broadly categorizing the nations of the Earth into three groups based on political and economic divisions"

China is complicated because of it's sheer size and population. Major cities such as Shanghai, Guangzhou, etc are comparable in every way with any first world city, and beats them hands down for population. It's just the countryside that is rundown, poor and often primitive. At the same time, they have some of the best transport/infrastructure links I've seen.
It's a nation of contradictions, and far too complicated to be bound by notions of first world or second world. TBH the US is similar in that respect. So many contradictions and different levels of development within it's territory.