Has America become relegated to third world status in recent years?

joseywhales

Deleted User wrote: »

Based on what? Yup. Nothing. Apart from posturing and stupid remarks, he hasn't actually done anything dangerous.

Bush Jnr started a war that has only recently begun to wind down.

Trump just pardoned a convicted friend(with 7 felonies)

If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is.

mr_fegelien

joseywhales wrote: »

Trump just pardoned a convicted friend(with 7 felonies)

If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is.

Is there any first world country that has had an administration as unstable and corrupt as the Trump administration?

YellowBucket

Every day it looks more and more like your stereotypical strongman populist presidential republic, as you'd find in Latin America, parts of Africa and of course Russia and more recently Turkey.

There's far, far, too much power concentrated in one individual.

All he's short of doing at this stage is organising a military parade, waving all the nuclear weapons down the National Mall.

joseywhales

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Is there any first world country that has had an administration as unstable and corrupt as the Trump administration?

Yeah, personally I would be for some constitutional changes and a reduction at least in political judicial appointees and the executive powers of a president but I am a newcomer here, still learning.

James Brown

It's not a third world country but it is for many of it's people.
America is a warning of what can happen to a country if corporate interests take charge, which is why we need be vigilant.
The corporations behind private prisons were the ones lobbied for the 3 strike rule and the plea bargain system which ensures poor black people are less likely to fight a bogus charge.
Walmart's employees are subsidised by the welfare system because their salaries are not livable.
That's just off the top of my head.
I love visiting but would never live there. It's a country that doesn't care for it's people IMO.

joseywhales

joseywhales wrote: »

Trump just pardoned a convicted friend(with 7 felonies)

If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is.

haha.. that's dangerous? Pardoning someone?

Take a good long look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_president_of_the_United_States#:~:text=The%20plenary%20power%20to%20grant,an%20impeachment%20process%3A%20%22The%20president

Funny. In any case, dangerous was related to his actions as a president towards the "bigger picture". Certainly not about pardoning one person, especially considering he's pardoned a lot less than his predecessors.

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

haha.. that's dangerous? Pardoning someone?

Take a good long look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_president_of_the_United_States#:~:text=The%20plenary%20power%20to%20grant,an%20impeachment%20process%3A%20%22The%20president

Funny. In any case, dangerous was related to his actions as a president towards the "bigger picture". Certainly not about pardoning one person, especially considering he's pardoned a lot less than his predecessors.

As with everything, such things don't cancel each other out. Pardoning your pal is crony and not very ethical.

Sean.3516

YellowBucket wrote: »

They’ve the world’s most expensive healthcare, which has been growing more and more expensive every year, while producing no better outcomes and even a falling life expectancy.

I think it's definitely fair to say the US does get what it pays for in terms of healthcare. They have the best cancer survival rates in the world. They have more innovation in medical technology and procedures than anywhere else. Their life expectancies have been driven in the last couple of years mainly by high suicide rates and automobile accidents. When you factor these out, the US has one of the best life expectancies in the world.

There is a reason that we in Europe often hear of people fundraising to send sick family members to the US to receive state of the art treatment for diseases unavailable anywhere else in the world.

YellowBucket wrote: »

The cost of healthcare in the USA is heading rapidly toward being unsustainable. It needs to be be totally reformed or it will end up being too expensive to function and the costs, so far, really haven’t even plateaued.

Increase in US healthcare costs is due mainly to the gradual introduction of more programs subsidising the healthcare costs of low income people. By removing more and more people from the private market you increase the prices paid by those who remain in it. It should be noted that none of the public programs (Medicare/Medicaid/ObamaCare) actually provide healthcare. They simply subsidise the costs for people who supposedly can't afford it. All US healthcare is privately provided. This is why quality has never deteriorated in spite of the government's poaching people from the private market. Prices would most certainly decrease if companies were allowed to compete for low income customers. Will low income customers be able to get all the top line coverage that high income customers will? Definitely not. But it certainly wouldn't be worse than what they're getting from Medicaid or any of the proposed Medicare For All programs. And they would certainly be paying less.

But you're right about one thing. It is unsustainable. If they keep moving closer to a socialised system, they will have the same problems as the rest of the world. Less people will become doctors. Doctors who remain will emigrate somewhere they'll get higher wages. There'll be less medical innovation if the profit incentive is removed. Healthcare rationing will take place. Waiting lists. etc. etc. Even now, more and more doctors are simply refusing to accept Medicare contracts.

Another critique of US healthcare is that they need to get rid of that ridiculous system of healthcare being linked to one's employer. Its a holdover from World War II era wage controls that led to employers paying for their employees' healthcare since it was illegal to give them a raise. A practice which has continued until present.

joseywhales

Deleted User wrote: »

haha.. that's dangerous? Pardoning someone?

Take a good long look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_president_of_the_United_States#:~:text=The%20plenary%20power%20to%20grant,an%20impeachment%20process%3A%20%22The%20president

Funny. In any case, dangerous was related to his actions as a president towards the "bigger picture". Certainly not about pardoning one person, especially considering he's pardoned a lot less than his predecessors.

He commutted a sentence for a crime in which the convicted felon was aiding him personally by performing the crime. He has seriously damaged the us justice system. The system is only as strong as the faith that the citizens have in it. Roger stone is nothing, showing us all that there is no justice at the highest level of us courts if you are friends with the president is a complete disaster, that is both embarrassing and against all Western legal values. After this one can actually make the argument that the us is a totalitarian regime.

Sean.3516

hotmail.com wrote: »

Parts of the US are and always have been third world. They don't provide health care on a universal basis and only provide very basic social welfare for their poorest citizens.

It's strange that people conclude that because a place doesn't have a full redistributionist safety net with all the bells and whistles that the place is therefore "undeveloped" or "third world".

There are countries with little to no redistributionism that provide excellent quality of life. e.g. Switzerland, Singapore, Hong Kong.
There are also countries where the government takes it upon itself to provide citizens with everything from healthcare to housing to high minimum wages that are absolute hellholes. e.g. South Africa, Zimbabwe, Cuba.

That said, the US is a massive piece of territory with over 300 million people, obviously parts of it that would appear third world compared to other places. On the whole however, it's a spectacular country.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

joseywhales wrote: »

Trump just pardoned a convicted friend(with 7 felonies)

If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is.

He hasn't set up torture camps or invaded any countries like his predecessors, on the scale of dangerous a pardon is pretty low. Scrapping the climate accord could actually be the most dangerous things he has done. He's just the honest face of what the US has long been

Bowie

Bowie wrote: »

As with everything, such things don't cancel each other out. Pardoning your pal is crony and not very ethical.

Sure it is, but changing the goalposts is hardly fair either. The point was made that what he did was dangerous. As opposed to all the other pardons made by US presidents... Did you see just how many pardons were done by other presidents compared to Trump? It's insane.

I don't like trump. He's a buffoon, and dodgy to the hilt, but I don't like these attempts to elevate him to something worse than other presidents. It screams ignorance and a desire to hide the ugly history of the US while picking a fall guy in trump.

joseywhales wrote: »

fter this one can actually make the argument that the us is a totalitarian regime.

You could always make that case, but it would be a silly case to make.

It's not a totalitarian regime. I live, for the most part, in a totalitarian regime, ie, China. I swear people have lost perspective completely. The US is hardly a fair democracy, and is extremely biased towards those with wealth. It also monitors, and manipulates it's population, but lets not go into la la land here.

Invidious

joseywhales wrote: »

After this one can actually make the argument that the us is a totalitarian regime.

Hardly.

The US is preparing for an election in November, with the incumbent president trailing his presumptive challenger by 9 percentage points in some polls. Trump's own Supreme Court appointees, Justices Kavanaugh and Gorsuch, recently voted against the president in his tax records case. State governors, even Republican governors, have defied the president on numerous issues. The House of Representatives is controlled by the opposition, making it difficult for Trump to pursue his agenda. Trump faces massive public criticism on a daily basis, and currently has an approval rating of only 40%.

None of these things are features of any genuine totalitarian regime.

jmayo

mr_fegelien wrote: »

It seems that though the US is still considered a superpower, there are a growing number of people around the world who no longer view living there in a favorable manner. In fact many people I know (even relatives who live in Africa) say they'd prefer to live in European countries, Australia, NZ, Canada.

I wonder, where did it all go wrong? America is only 240 years old and life in the country was arguably the best after WWII between 1940-60 but 60 years later, things have gone completely sour. Healthcare is non-existent, Families have to work two jobs, The justice system is ****ed up, Mass shooting, riots everywhere.

Is this the end for the American Empire?

There are still nice parts of the US.
I do agree healthcare is a mess and you can be fooked unless you have very expensive health insurance. Even then there are layers that can offer shag all.

And yes the American dream is a bit of a farce at this stage.
It costs a huge amount to get an education and there are no longer the opportunities there once were.
Incomes and standards of living have been dropping generation by generation.
And citing the likes of the internet tech billionaires is cr** because all of them (Dell, Gates, Zuckerberg, Jobs) came from reasonably well off backgrounds.

What the US gave them was opportunity to use their ingenuity.
That is what is good about it, it doesn't penalise failure like some other places.
And they have the capital to invest, the research labs, the educational institutions like MIT, Berkely, Silicon valley, etc.
That helps keep them ahead of the curve in tech and that is where world has headed.

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Not if you were black in the segregated south it wasn't.
Not if you were a homosexual who was forced to live a closeted life for fear of arrest or attack.
Not if you were a woman who wanted a life beyond domestic duties.

Yeah but most of that applies to the rest of the world at the same time.
Ever read about how Irish women up until the 1970w had to resign from public sector jobs when they got married.
When did the UK legalise homosexuality ?

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

...

1. Reagan's slashing of taxes for the wealthy under the banner of "trickle down economics" started the country down a path where it now ranks as the
2. In tandem with this, the elimination of the FCC fairness doctrine in 1987, allowed for the creation of partisan media outlets to emerge. These more so than anything else are fuelling the division in the country to this day.
3. Finally, the Citizen's United supreme court ruling in 2010 has been an utter disaster for democracy in that country. This was the ruling that allows wealthy donors to inject unlimited amounts of money into political campaigns via the use of Super PACs.

Put that all together and you have the current scenario where billionaires are able to use their money to influence the population via partisan media and politicians via campaign donations. This typically leads the general population pitted against each other over social issues while the laws are changed to help the rich siphon more and more money out of the economy.

The USA is not a developing country but on its current path it's going to end up being more like one for a larger and larger amount of its citizens.

What always amazes me is how ordinary Americans support tax cuts for likes of the Buffets, Gates, Kochs and do not want some form of free healthcare.
It is one of the greatest achievements of the rich establishment in conning a chunk of the masses into supporting them.

It is like as if the ordinary people really believe so much in the American dream that they reckon they will all be billionaires in a few years so will benefit from all these tax cuts. :rolleyes:

hotmail.com wrote: »

As stated above, the most influential US president of the past 50 years was Reagan.

He moved America further to the right, believing in even lower taxes and an even smaller government. His biggest achievement was not only convincing the Republicans of this ideology but also the Democrats.

Reagan was the real change.
Carter was hated in the end, not helped by fact in a speech he spelt out how America was living beyond it means and the halycon days were over.
Reagan offered tax cuts and romped home.


People in Ireland, and indeed in lots of parts of the world, loved Clinton and Obama, but within the US they just continued the path set by likes of Reagan.
Obama did try his healthcare revolution, but that was about it.

joseywhales

Invidious wrote: »

Hardly.

The US is preparing for an election in November, with the incumbent president trailing his presumptive challenger by 9 percentage points in some polls. Trump's own Supreme Court appointees, Justices Kavanaugh and Gorsuch, recently voted against the president in his tax records case. State governors, even Republican governors, have defied the president on numerous issues. The House of Representatives is controlled by the opposition, making it difficult for Trump to pursue his agenda. Trump faces massive public criticism on a daily basis, and currently has an approval rating of only 40%.

None of these things are features of any genuine totalitarian regime.

This is a quote from stone after he was indicted.

"There is no circumstance whatsoever under which I will bear false witness against the president"

Fair enough but he also threatened a witness with death. And tried to Stonewall Congress.

He protected the president from connection to the investigation.

The president commutted his sentence.

The president is above the law because he has saved a man who protected him from prosecution illegally.

Being above the law is at least one facet of a totalitarian regime.And he has effectively done that by pardoning man who protected him.

How could Trump ever be convicted for any crime if he will promise to pardon anyone who obstructs investigations against him? He has clearly put himself above the law


I cannot go through every pardon of every previous president but a fair comparison wo:Duld be the immediate predecessor.

I don't see any of those felons who have a direct connection to Obama, certainly they didn't refer to him and express their loyalty when they were indicted.

Overheal

joseywhales wrote: »

This is a quote from stone after he was indicted.

"There is no circumstance whatsoever under which I will bear false witness against the president"

Fair enough but he also threatened a witness with death. And tried to Stonewall Congress.

He protected the president from connection to the investigation.

The president commutted his sentence.

The president is above the law because he has saved a man who protected him from prosecution illegally.

Being above the law is at least one facet of a totalitarian regime.And he has effectively done that by pardoning man who protected him.

How could Trump ever be convicted for any crime if he will promise to pardon anyone who obstructs investigations against him? He has clearly put himself above the law


I cannot go through every pardon of every previous president but a fair comparison wo:Duld be the immediate predecessor.

I don't see any of those felons who have a direct connection to Obama, certainly they didn't refer to him and express their loyalty when they were indicted.

You'd have to go back to GHWB, Bush Sr. who used his power to pardon/commute the sentences of those convicted in the Iran-Contra affair, a boondoggle which itself GHWB was linked to. But as I said in an earlier post this was a christmas eve pardon after he had already lost the election, he did so attempting to sweep it under the rug of the slowest news cycle in the calendar year. I'm sure the political fallout at the time was still tremendous. If only he'd had Fox News and other scores of sympathetic gaslighting sycophants.

Invidious

joseywhales wrote: »

Being above the law is at least one facet of a totalitarian regime.And he has effectively done that by pardoning man who protected him.

There's a sizable leap from pardoning one man to imposing a totalitarian regime.

If the US is genuinely totalitarian, why are millions of people free to criticize, mock, and ridicule the president on a daily basis without fear of reprisal?

They're in rapid decline.

Wages have been stagnant for several decades yet the cost of living has increased. Pitiful wages and a total reliance on tips to survive.

The cost of healthcare is unconscionable.

They're in dire need of a new FDR.

joseywhales

Invidious wrote: »

There's a sizable leap from pardoning one man to imposing a totalitarian regime.

If the US is genuinely totalitarian, why are millions of people free to criticize, mock, and ridicule the president on a daily basis without fear of reprisal?

Yes I agree it is not a full totalitarian regime but one man having total immunity from the law(through the exercised mechanism of pardoning alleged co conspirators) is one facet of totalitarianism.

Thankfully, the right to assembly is still protected amongst other rights.

ckerryman

Deleted User wrote: »

They're in rapid decline.

Wages have been stagnant for several decades yet the cost of living has increased. Pitiful wages and a total reliance on tips to survive.

The cost of healthcare is unconscionable.

They're in dire need of a new FDR.

Instead of a FDR, the US will get a Biden backed up by BLM Haters instead.

joseywhales

joseywhales wrote: »

Yes I agree it is not a full totalitarian regime but one man having total immunity from the law(through the exercised mechanism of pardoning alleged co conspirators) is one facet of totalitarianism.

Having a flag is one facet of totalitarianism. Doesn't mean the US is a totalitarian regime, which is what was claimed.

Thankfully, the right to assembly is still protected amongst other rights.

The right to congregate and shout slogans during a virus epidemic? Oh yes, that's protected...

Look, they have a solid constitution, with a very loyal population willing to fight to retain that constitution. Politics and stupidity aside, the US is well protected from being legally turned into a totalitarian state.

Kaybaykwah

The United States are a very complex country. Vast and beautiful, and pretty robust as far as democratic checks. There are a lot of clowns about, but there is more to the US than Chumperino.

Harry Palmr

In the end a successful country is one with a "fat and happy" middle class, in the USA that cohort has been gradually squeezed since the aftermath of the oil shocks in the 70s. The Reganomics of the mid 80s when a majority of Americans felt good about themselves in a general sense was a tax cutting fake boom built on massive borrowing like our Celtic Tiger and it's never been unwound as with every GOP admin the borrowing gets raised another notch having been paid down somewhat or at least slowed by the intervening Democrat admins (though Obama had to deal with the fallout from the 2008 crash). It's funny how the more right wing and conservative party always makes the federal debt bigger though it's also the GOP that spends the most on wars they loose or at least don't win.

A couple of sobering facts from Bernie.


https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1282787439040516106

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1283085620647284737

ckerryman

Deleted User wrote: »

A couple of sobering facts from Bernie.


https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1282787439040516106

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1283085620647284737

I can remember the good old days when Bernie spoke out about Millionaires.
Then he became one himself and stopped the hate against them.
Here are his 3 houses.
The "summer" home was payed for in Cash.
https://heavy.com/news/2019/06/bernie-sanders-house-home-photos/

He has done well for himself.

Kaybaykwah

ckerryman wrote: »

I can remember the good old days when Bernie spoke out about Millionaires.
Then he became one himself and stopped the hate against them.
Here are his 3 houses.
The "summer" home was payed for in Cash.
https://heavy.com/news/2019/06/bernie-sanders-house-home-photos/

He has done well for himself.

That is non-news. Worse than fake news.

Kaybaykwah

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

That is non-news. Worse than fake news.

If someone can promote Benie with facts, someone else can seek to discredit him with facts. It's not fake news.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewithorn/2019/04/12/how-bernie-sanders-the-socialist-senator-amassed-a-25-million-fortune/#19d8394836bf

The problem with American politicians is that they tend to be wealthy themselves.

ThunbergsAreGo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A couple of sobering facts from Bernie.


https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1282787439040516106

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1283085620647284737

Do you have a source for the first one?

Kaybaykwah

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone can promote Benie with facts, someone else can seek to discredit him with facts. It's not fake news.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewithorn/2019/04/12/how-bernie-sanders-the-socialist-senator-amassed-a-25-million-fortune/#19d8394836bf

The problem with American politicians is that they tend to be wealthy themselves.

What does it mean that he has 3 houses that are modest in price relative to their location, except for the Washington one?
He is not a communist, he is only fighting for more fairness in Health, Education and all the stuff you knock the US for not having. He has made money from book writing, but he is also a well-paid politician and has been since the days he was the mayor of Burlington, Vt in the seventies. He did a lot of good there, is known as the first socialist mayor of a city in the US. Nothing about Burlington screams that it is commie, but it certainly is known as one of the top small cities in the US for QOL. I know it well, it is close to my home and have gone many times. The Vermonters' mentality is a very cooperative one. His ideas, which are deemed radical in the rest of the country have a more fertile ground there, and in fact, they did implement a state law to balance the federal deficit in Healthcare by creating the first state-wide universal scheme. It was later brought down by an incoming republican Admin in 2015.

I said it was no news, not fake news, but the piece in my mind did nothing to discredit him in spite of the negative intention.

Rodney Bathgate

mr_fegelien wrote: »

It seems that though the US is still considered a superpower, there are a growing number of people around the world who no longer view living there in a favorable manner. In fact many people I know (even relatives who live in Africa) say they'd prefer to live in European countries, Australia, NZ, Canada.

I wonder, where did it all go wrong? America is only 240 years old and life in the country was arguably the best after WWII between 1940-60 but 60 years later, things have gone completely sour. Healthcare is non-existent, Families have to work two jobs, The justice system is ****ed up, Mass shooting, riots everywhere.

Is this the end for the American Empire?

What have your African relatives got against Africa, Mr. F?