Irish Property Market 2020 Part 2

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

So, erm, in your 'opinion', how long should it take to build 215 apartments on a relatively small site?

Back in December 2016, "With the piling works close to completion, work has also started on pouring the basement concrete slabs in preparation for the construction of 215 apartments in a pavilion-style development."

Link here: https://www.irishbuildingmagazine.ie/2016/12/14/first-tower-crane-comes-to-lansdowne-place-ballsbridge/

You should post the same link multiple times more often

PropQueries

Cyrus wrote: »

You should post the same link multiple times more often

First time posting the link.

hometruths

Hubertj wrote: »

I just can’t get my head around why someone would pay that much for an apartment. Would be an interesting comparison to see what houses were for sale at €1.5m when the purchaser chose a 2 bed apartment instead.

Popular with folk who have to spend less than 180 days in the country.

awec

PropQueries wrote: »

So, erm, in your 'opinion', how long should it take to build 215 apartments on a relatively small site?

Back in December 2016, "With the piling works close to completion, work has also started on pouring the basement concrete slabs in preparation for the construction of 215 apartments in a pavilion-style development."

Link here: https://www.irishbuildingmagazine.ie/2016/12/14/first-tower-crane-comes-to-lansdowne-place-ballsbridge/

I don't know how long it should take, but in construction delays happen all the time.

I am very confident that no developer is purposefully going slow. This would be an excellent way to lose a lot of money.

PropQueries

Ok, back to the original question before some of the regulars here were assuming it takes 4-5 years to build 215 apartments on a relatively small site.

Original question:

Looks like one of the few that did buy is now looking to sell.

They're seeking €1,495,000 according to MyHome.ie (link below). According to the PPR, this apartment sold for €1,431,718 in August 2019.

As the PPR for new build homes is listed ex.VAT at 13.5% (I'm open to correction if that's not true, but I read that here before), would that mean they originally paid c. €1,600,000 for the apartment?

Link to MyHome.ie here (Apartment 12 The Templeton, Lansdowne Place): https://www.myhome.ie/residential/br...dublin/4461339

IAmTheReign

PropQueries wrote: »

Ok, back to the original question before some of the regulars here were assuming it takes 4-5 years to build 215 apartments on a relatively small site.

Original question:

Looks like one of the few that did buy is now looking to sell.

They're seeking €1,495,000 according to MyHome.ie (link below). According to the PPR, this apartment sold for €1,431,718 in August 2019.

As the PPR for new build homes is listed ex.VAT at 13.5% (I'm open to correction if that's not true, but I read that here before), would that mean they originally paid c. €1,600,000 for the apartment?

Link to MyHome.ie here (Apartment 12 The Templeton, Lansdowne Place): https://www.myhome.ie/residential/br...dublin/4461339

In answer to your question, yes, that is how PPR works. New build price is listed ex VAT. It says so on the PPR website. Hardly surprising that if they're selling now they expect to make a loss considering there is still new units available. Why would anyone buy a second hand apartment for the same price as a new one?

So how long do you think it would take to build 215 luxury apartments? It was reported as far back as 2019 that the project was behind schedule.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chartered-land-to-reboot-plans-for-lansdowne-place-apartments-6x6gtk3pl

PropQueries

IAmTheReign wrote: »

In answer to your question, yes, that is how PPR works. New build price is listed ex VAT. It says so on the PPR website. Hardly surprising that if they're selling now they expect to make a loss considering there is still new units available. Why would anyone buy a second hand apartment for the same price as a new one?

So how long do you think it would take to build 215 luxury apartments? It was reported as far back as 2019 that the project was behind schedule.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chartered-land-to-reboot-plans-for-lansdowne-place-apartments-6x6gtk3pl

Thanks. I wonder what the delay was? Back in December 2016, they were well under way. The only thing really left to do was build those apartments on top of each other: "With the piling works close to completion, work has also started on pouring the basement concrete slabs in preparation for the construction of 215 apartments in a pavilion-style development."

Just to add. I have passed by that site regularly over the past number of years and those apartments were under construction 3 years ago.

Hubertj

PropQueries wrote: »

Thanks. I wonder what the delay was? Back in December 2016, they were well under way. The only thing really left to do was build those 'luxury boxes" on top of each other: "With the piling works close to completion, work has also started on pouring the basement concrete slabs in preparation for the construction of 215 apartments in a pavilion-style development."

Just to add. I have passed by that site regularly over the past number of years and those apartments were under construction 3 years ago.

I’ve noticed they’ve been working there on Saturdays. I can see the crane from my “home office” and it has been moving the last few Weeks

PropQueries

Hubertj wrote: »

I’ve noticed they’ve been working there on Saturdays. I can see the crane from my “home office” and it has been moving the last few Weeks

Thanks. Just trying to figure out what's going on. As you say, you can see the development from your home office. So, it's not like they found some Viking artefacts and had to stop.

You would have probably noticed as well that the ground floor apartments were mostly built or well underway 2 - 3 years ago. All that was left to do was to build on top of those. So, that's where I came up with my original conclusion. But, obviously open to a different conclusion.

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Thanks. Just trying to figure out what's going on. As you say, you can see the development from your home office. So, it's not like they found some Viking artefacts and had to stop.

You would have probably noticed as well that the ground floor apartments were mostly built or well underway 2 - 3 years ago. All that was left to do was to build on top of those. So, that's where I came up with my original conclusion. But, obviously open to a different conclusion.

i walk past them every day there is plenty of work going on,

if you are genuinely interested id imagine there are countless ways to find out that are better than asking people on boards.

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

First time posting the link.

you posted an excerpt from it, same thing.

Cyrus

if you search the PPR by landsdowne place there are two more listed misspelled, im not sure what other mistakes are on there but there will be a few.

PropQueries

Cyrus wrote: »

i walk past them every day there is plenty of work going on,

if you are genuinely interested id imagine there are countless ways to find out that are better than asking people on boards.

Good point. I guess wondering why it takes up to 5 years to build 215 apartments on a relatively small site in Dublin when the shells of the ground floor apartments were mostly complete c. 3 years ago is not worthy of a property forum.

Especially, when there's some evidence that some of the people who have already bought them (10 or 12 out of 215 sold as per the PPR) appear to be placing them back on the market at a discount to what they originally purchased them for last year.

Unless, of course, you also believe that taking 4-5 years to build 215 apartments is not unusual or worthy of comment in itself?

But then again, I'm not involved in the property industry and don't have commissions to worry about.

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Good point. I guess wondering why it takes up to 5 years to build 215 apartments on a relatively small site in Dublin when the shells of the ground floor apartments were mostly complete c. 3 years ago is not worthy of a property forum.

Especially, when there's some evidence that some of the people who have already bought them (10 out of 215 sold as per the PPR) appear to be placing them back on the market at a discount to what they originally purchased them for last year.

Unless, of course, you also believe that taking 4-5 years to build 215 apartments is not unusual or worthy of comment in itself?

But then again, I'm not involved in the property industry and don't have commissions to worry about.

12 of them sold, and probably more as it happens.

im not in the property industry either so i have no idea how long it takes, but i do know in my small development of circa 20 houses the developer was over 2.5 years building them so im not surprised.

TheSheriff

PropQueries wrote: »

Thanks. Just trying to figure out what's going on. As you say, you can see the development from your home office. So, it's not like they found some Viking artefacts and had to stop.

You would have probably noticed as well that the ground floor apartments were mostly built or well underway 2 - 3 years ago. All that was left to do was to build on top of those. So, that's where I came up with my original conclusion. But, obviously open to a different conclusion.

But you never are open to a different conclusion really are you PropQueries ?

PropQueries

TheSheriff wrote: »

But you never are open to a different conclusion really are you PropQueries ?

What different conclusions? Would love to hear them, as I'm sure many others here would too.

enricoh

PropQueries wrote: »

Apologies. You're probably right. The normal time it would normally take to build 215 apartments on a relatively small site is probably at c. 5 years.

Builders shut down a site near me for over a year recently. They had a site in malahide iirc and sent all the lads up there. Got everything built and sold and are back beside me now. The other site must have been more lucrative.

PropQueries

Cyrus wrote: »

12 of them sold, and probably more as it happens.

im not in the property industry either so i have no idea how long it takes, but i do know in my small development of circa 20 houses the developer was over 2.5 years building them so im not surprised.

Apologies. I agree with you. 4-5 years to build 215 apartments in normal. I'm sure if it was back in the Celtic Tiger years, their bankers would have been very very understanding. Actually, they would have loved it. They used to love keeping those interest payments and fees rolling over every year until bonus time.

PropQueries

enricoh wrote: »

Builders shut down a site near me for over a year recently. They had a site in malahide iirc and sent all the lads up there. Got everything built and sold and are back beside me now. The other site must have been more lucrative.

Thanks. That actually makes sense. They probably shut down a site with some of the most expensive selling apartments in Dublin to concentrate on finishing that site they might have out in North Dublin.

Marius34

PropQueries wrote: »

What different conclusions? Would love to hear them, as I'm sure many others here would too.

This is very unordinary millionaires project.
How long does it take to build apartment block? well, that's definitely not a project to look at.

Timing belt

On the WFH topic it is interesting to see that UK banks have told all staff to return to UK and not to work from abroad because of TAX and Regulatory issues for the banks by having staff in a different jurisdiction.

https://www.ft.com/content/1650df6e-987a-46dc-b205-d588f23e699f

Cyrus

Timing belt wrote: »

On the WFH topic it is interesting to see that UK banks have told all staff to return to UK and not to work from abroad because of TAX and Regulatory issues for the banks by having staff in a different jurisdiction.

https://www.ft.com/content/1650df6e-987a-46dc-b205-d588f23e699f

and it will be the same for every other large company despite people posting here saying otherwise.

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Thanks. That actually makes sense. They probably shut down a site with some of the most expensive selling apartments in Dublin to concentrate on finishing that site they might have out in North Dublin.

sarcasm doesnt suit you, i prefer when you feign innocence.

PropQueries

Marius34 wrote: »

This is very unordinary millionaires project.
How long does it take to build apartment block? well, that's definitely not a project to look at.

Well, back in December 2016, they were well under way. The only thing really left to do was build those apartments on top of each other. From article in 2016: "With the piling works close to completion, work has also started on pouring the basement concrete slabs in preparation for the construction of 215 apartments in a pavilion-style development."

I'm probably wrong in my original conclusion. Ye all win.

OwlsZat

PropQueries wrote: »

Thanks. That actually makes sense. They probably shut down a site with some of the most expensive selling apartments in Dublin to concentrate on finishing that site they might have out in North Dublin.

This does make sense. A few of the PLC home builders have already said they are going to focus more on the first time buyers part of the market as this is where there is most money to be made.

Timing belt

Cyrus wrote: »

and it will be the same for every other large company despite people posting here saying otherwise.

Yes you are right the work needs to be undertaken in the jurisdiction of the company. People turned a blind eye to it at the start of the pandemic but there will be a bigger focus on it now.

PropQueries

OwlsZat wrote: »

This does make sense. A few of the PLC home builders have already said they are going to focus more on the first time buyers part of the market as this is where there is most money to be made.

Not if the shells of ground floor apartments across most of the site were completed c. 3 years ago. This isn't an empty site. It's a relatively small site and the groundworks were started 4 years ago and the shells of the ground floor apartments were mostly completed 2-3 years ago. All that was left to do c. 3 years ago was to continue building on top of the ground floor apartments.

Housing estates are indeed completed in stages. Each apartment block must be completed in one go.

PropQueries

Cyrus wrote: »

and it will be the same for every other large company despite people posting here saying otherwise.

Read that over the weekend alright. It was interesting that "One senior manager said that rather than forcing his subordinates to return, he has been reminding them that the tax liability will be their own. That’s usually enough of an incentive without ordering them home”.

Maybe someone can explain one thing that confuses me. For example, Google, they have nearly the same number of staff working across other EU countries as they do in Ireland. Many are in R&D etc., so maybe they are not counted as a profit center.

However, many Google employees also work in sales on the ground with their bigger clients across other countries throughout the EU. Given that they work in their respective countries full time and in sales, how would they not be impacted by a potential reason in the article provided from Mazars: "employees who relocated could be considered to have a “permanent establishment” in the country they were working from, exposing the employer and employee to tax in the host country."?

awec

PropQueries wrote: »

Read that over the weekend alright. It was interesting that "One senior manager said that rather than forcing his subordinates to return, he has been reminding them that the tax liability will be their own. That’s usually enough of an incentive without ordering them home”.

Maybe someone can explain one thing that confuses me. For example, Google, they have nearly the same number of staff working across other EU countries as they do in Ireland. Many are in R&D etc., so maybe they are not counted as a profit center.

However, many Google employees also work in sales on the ground with their bigger clients across other countries throughout the EU. Given that they work in their respective countries full time and in sales, how would they not be impacted by a potential reason in the article provided from Mazars: "employees who relocated could be considered to have a “permanent establishment” in the country they were working from, exposing the employer and employee to tax in the host country."?

Are you talking about when someone is sent to another country to work for period of time?

There are specific tax laws for this scenario, when you are temporarily posted to another country.

If you are talking about people employed by Google Ireland in sales, working permanently in another country, then this doesn't really happen. They would be employed by their local subsidiary.

thefridge2006

AIB to cut a string of deposit rates to zero and impose negative rates on more firms

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/banking/aib-to-cut-a-string-of-deposit-rates-to-zero-and-impose-negative-rates-on-more-firms-39614046.html


Where are we headed ????