Irish Property Market 2020 Part 2

PropQueries

schmittel wrote: »

For a start we're not talking about Facebook. We're talking about Irish SMEs making widgets or whatever.

Facebook is based in Silicon Valley, one of the highest cost of living places in the world. To date to attract the talent they have had to pay the Silicon Valley salaries.

This is a world away from the small insurance broker who has 5 employees taking calls in Wexford.

Maybe, but I was replying to this post:

"Originally Posted by Mic 1972 - Work from Home doesn't work like that.
Salary is based on skills, experience and seniority. Any position being advertized at the moment taht is full home-based doesn't require to indicate your home address and nowhere during the interview process you are being informed that your salary will change depending on locaation"

awec

schmittel wrote: »

For a start we're not talking about Facebook. We're talking about Irish SMEs making widgets or whatever.

Facebook is based in Silicon Valley, one of the highest cost of living places in the world. To date to attract the talent they have had to pay the Silicon Valley salaries.

This is a world away from the small insurance broker who has 5 employees taking calls in Wexford.

Ok my bad, in my example I was mostly talking about large companies / MNCs.

There are some sectors where it could work quite well, like the example you gave.

PropQueries

PropQueries wrote: »

............. I think the next big impact, admittedly about 10 -15 years away, is the self-driving car. This is what will truly open up every rural home to a potential buyer. And, apparently, there's tens of thousands of them right there, already built and ready to go.

Surely most folk still won't want to commute long distances, even if the car is driving itself you are still adding the hours to your day.

awec

Never mind self driving cars, just wait until our cars can fly and we can all commute as the crow flies.

IF WFH and where you live dictates your salary I imagine plenty companies will aim to hire folk living in cheaper areas. ,

Mic 1972

awec wrote: »

Of course they will. This is exactly how it works.

Salary is set based on your skills and experience in the market local to where you live. There is no reason to pay someone living in a village a NYC salary.

Within Ireland, remote working hasn't yet been much of a thing. We don't have many Irish based companies that really do it.

We actually do have irish companies hiring for WFH jobs and they don't do what you say above.
I work for one that hires home-based only and salaries are not benchmarked by location.

awec

awec wrote: »

Never mind self driving cars, just wait until our cars can fly and we can all commute as the crow flies.

A subsidised Kona EV still costs €40k, I reckon the flying cars for the average commuter are very far away

Mic 1972

Augeo wrote: »

IF WFH and where you live dictates your salary I imagine plenty companies will aim to hire folk living in cheaper areas. ,

they dont do that, don't worry. You can apply from Dublin to companies hiring WFH in Cork and your salary won't be affected by the fact that you are in Dublin

awec

Augeo wrote: »

IF WFH and where you live dictates your salary I imagine plenty companies will aim to hire folk living in cheaper areas. ,

They do but it is more difficult to find talent in cheaper areas as the number of applicants is usually pretty small.

PropQueries

Mic 1972 wrote: »

We actually do have irish companies hiring for WFH jobs and they don't do what you say above.
I work for one that hires home-based only and salaries are not benchmarked by location.

Not yet. Once both employers and employees adjust to the new reality and the employer can point to the facebooks etc. of the world as real world examples of the practice, they will start to use that information as a bargaining chip.

It may be more difficult to make the change for existing employees, but for new hires it will probably become accepted practice.

awec

Mic 1972 wrote: »

We actually do have irish companies hiring for WFH jobs and they don't do what you say above.
I work for one that hires home-based only and salaries are not benchmarked by location.

Yes, but not many.

The whole remote work market hasn't really hit here. People who work remotely here tend to do so for MNCs rather than Irish companies. There is no real functioning remote-work market here at the moment.

If / when remote work really kicks in here it is truly delusional to think that everyone will get Dublin salaries. That is absolutely not how it works.

Mic 1972

awec wrote: »

They do but it is more difficult to find talent in cheaper areas as the number of applicants is usually pretty small.

Your statement is not correct.
You can easily check jobs advertised in Cork for all the major IT companies based in there. Most are hiring WFH now and salaries are all the same

IF you have leverage for negotiation during the hiring process that's a entirely different conversation

hometruths

awec wrote: »

They do but it is more difficult to find talent in cheaper areas as the number of applicants is usually pretty small.

Again, the whole point is we are not talking about a job being advertised today.

Next year, in 5 years time, in 10 years time.

And the talent does not necessarily have to be living in Ballygobackwards when they apply for the job. They might live in Dublin, and choose to take the job precisely because it allows them to move to Ballygobackwards.

Mic 1972

Mic 1972 wrote: »

they dont do that, don't worry. You can apply from Dublin to companies hiring WFH in Cork and your salary won't be affected by the fact that you are in Dublin

Indeed, I can't see someone's location in Ireland being a factor in their salary. Interesting to see how things will go.
Back in March lots of folk reckoned they'd be back in the office in a few weeks etc, 6 months later we are still being advised to WFH if possible.

Mic 1972

awec wrote: »

Yes, but not many.

The whole remote work market hasn't really hit here. People who work remotely here tend to do so for MNCs rather than Irish companies.

Most multinational company actually advertise WFH jobs at the moment, that's more than a few.

awec

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Most multinational company actually advertise WFH jobs at the moment, that's more than a few.

MNCs like Facebook, that said your salary will be adjusted if you relocate to a cheaper area?

awec

schmittel wrote: »

Again, the whole point is we are not talking about a job being advertised today.

Next year, in 5 years time, in 10 years time.

And the talent does not necessarily have to be living in Ballygobackwards when they apply for the job. They might live in Dublin, and choose to take the job precisely because it allows them to move to Ballygobackwards.

Even in 10 years time, the number of applicants in cities will outnumber those in rural areas, and cities with higher costs of living will attract higher salaries.

But as I said, salary alone is a useless figure. Earning 50k in Wexford could leave you better off than earning 100k in Dublin.

Browney7

cubatahavana wrote: »

Ok, first of all, I just realized 5 miles out of Dublin the countryside starts. I’ve been living in the countryside all this time without knowing it!

Is Dublin accommodation comprised of only 2 bed apartments? Last time I checked there are plenty of houses with gardens to sit in from Crumlin to clongriffin

No green space in the city? Last time I checked, Phoenix park is the largest city park in Europe. Plenty of houses with fantastic gardens within 5-10 minutes from city center by car

What havoc are you talking about in crèches? AFAIK only one case happened recently

Havoc in creches is the capacity and whether or not they will reopen and the price per child. WFH may prompt people to question whether it is worth paying a grand a child for childcare if they can move close to family (Granny minding a few hours a day whilst parents work remote).

People will allocate their resources and spend accordingly - if you have 300k to spend you'd get a very decent house 10 mins from Limerick, Cork, Galway. What would 300k buy in Dublin? 2 bed apartment in D15 or clongriffin or maybe a small three bed ex corpo in crumlin or Cabra or ballyer - a lot of these options wouldn't be appealing to some people just as rural living may not be attractive to you.

Phoenix park is a fantastic amenity but sitting out in your half acre site and gardening (albeit with maintenance) is different to going to the park as is keeping pets etc. There are pros and cons to rural vs urban and people will continue to weigh them up

awec

awec wrote: »

MNCs like Facebook, that said your salary will be adjusted if you relocate to a cheaper area?

I'm in a large MNC pharma plant a few days most weeks, staff (lots) are being encouraged to WFH. Lots of them aren't from Dublin, there's a few I know of gone back to their county of origin, no talk of adjusting remuneration packages.
Can't see how it would work really, 10% less if you go to Kildare, 20% if you go to Roscommon .......

Mic 1972

awec wrote: »

MNCs like Facebook, that said your salary will be adjusted if you relocate to a cheaper area?

Correct.
Salary benchmark will be reassessed and will apply to everyone who WFH, that's how they are doing it here in Ireland anyway

awec

Augeo wrote: »

I'm in a large MNC pharma plant a few days most weeks, staff (lots) are being encouraged to WFH. Lots of them aren't from Dublin, there's a few I know of gone back to their county of origin, no talk of adjusting remuneration packages.
Can't see how it would work really, 10% less if you go to Kildare, 20% if you go to Roscommon .......

It would not be this granular in a place like Ireland.

It would likely be Dublin + commuter belt vs everywhere else.


Anyway, I don't want to keep dragging this thread off topic, so I'll move on!

awec

awec wrote: »

It would not be this granular in a place like Ireland.

It would likely be Dublin + commuter belt vs everywhere else.

..................

But within Dublin you've folk living in places with wildly varying house prices..... D4 isn't far from Dolphin's Barn etc etc etc

M256

awec wrote: »

MNCs like Facebook, that said your salary will be adjusted if you relocate to a cheaper area?

It has nothing to do with remote working, if they had an office in the middle of nowhere they would pay lower salaries. They don’t pay Silicon Valley salaries in their offices in Poland, India, etc.

PropQueries

Augeo wrote: »

I'm in a large MNC pharma plant a few days most weeks, staff (lots) are being encouraged to WFH. Lots of them aren't from Dublin, there's a few I know of gone back to their county of origin, no talk of adjusting remuneration packages.
Can't see how it would work really, 10% less if you go to Kildare, 20% if you go to Roscommon .......

I think it will work like the current older vs younger teachers. The older (pre-2011) teachers are on higher pay and benefit than the new hires.

So, I reckon it's the new hires that will have to live with the new reality of salaries linked to where you live e.g. if you currently live in Carlow, they will ask you where you're living and advise that the salary will be based on the living costs e.g. housing etc. in that county.

Mercer etc. already does cost of living surveys for multinationals which they use to decide on pay rates based on whatever city their office is based in.

It also then gives rural based employees a hiring cost advantage (from the employers perspective) over city based employees.

M256

Augeo wrote: »

But within Dublin you've folk living in places with wildly varying house prices..... D4 isn't far from Dolphin's Barn etc etc etc

So what? Salaries of those working in the office do not depend on their zip code. Why would that matter when working remotely?

hometruths

According to the 2016 census (apologies to the census deniers!), over half a million people work in Dublin city and suburbs on a daily basis.

Dublin city and suburbs recorded an 10.9 per cent increase in the number of workers commuting from outside the urban area, rising to 130,447 from 117,764 in 2011. Twenty five per cent of Dublin workers commute from outside the city and suburbs.

So 25% of people who work in Dublin have, for whatever reason, chosen to live outside Dublin. Many of those endure a fairly draining daily commute.

Surely if rising are numbers are choosing to live outside the city and commute, it stands to reason that numbers will only increase if WFH becomes an option, i.e live outside the city and work without the commute?

It baffles me that this could possibly be considered an illogical assumption.

PropQueries

M256 wrote: »

So what? Salaries of those working in the office do not depend on their zip code. Why would that matter when working remotely?

I think because employers will use Facebook as an example of a real world, respected company that will have a similar policy in place. It will be difficult for new hires to bargain in such a situation.

hometruths

I think it's unlikely that the Irish SMEs who don't currently model their payscales on Facebook are going to start any time soon.

M256

M256 wrote: »

So what? Salaries of those working in the office do not depend on their zip code. Why would that matter when working remotely?

That is essentially my point "Can't see how it would work really, 10% less if you go to Kildare, 20% if you go to Roscommon ......."

King Cantona

Facebook employees in Dublin have already been told that there will be pay scales based on their location, but it will be at european level, not Irish county level.

i.e if you decide to move to Portugal / Spain, expect your Dublin salary to drop.

If you move from Dublin to Kildare - no difference in salary.

None of this will come into effect until at least Summer 2021.