The decline of Irish journalism

sid waddell

Invidious wrote: »

What nonsense. Using the terms "progressive" or "woke" to describe people obsessed with identity politics, political correctness, and competitive victimhood doesn't make someone far-right. .

It's just that they pretty much always turn out to have far right views.

As well as being crap at the English language, relying as they do on meaningless American buzzwords.

sid waddell

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

There are some very funny posts here recently with people who have obviously been taken in by far left conspiracy theory websites and actually believe there are evil Nazis hiding around every corner. These are the types that sign up for antifa and go to rally to cause violence on someone they have never heard of who somebody else incorrectly labels a Nazi because of a disagreement of opinion, and as they cause destruction, violence and terrorize their victim they keep whispering to themselves "At least I am on the right side of history"

In regards to the posts in other threads you do not like, if you see someone post something you disagree with then argue your position, if you cant then maybe question yourself, Maybe you are in the wrong.

This is satire, right? Chris Morris could barely do any better.

Wibbs

sid waddell wrote: »

Be nice if when posters denigrated "multiculturalism" they would actually be honest about what their real views are.

Look, we all know it's code for race hatred. Alright? You know it, we know it, everybody knows it.

It's quite ironic to see the freeze peach crowd cloak their real views. I thought they hated that? Yet they are the biggest participants in something they say they hate!

Be honest - as you might say yourselves - man up.

Man you really do see reds Fascists!! under the bed.

And I just got it cleaned too.



Persil non bio is your only man for the whites I find. It's a bugger to iron mind you.

No hidden conspiratorial "code" involved I'm afraid. You may have missed the part where I said "racism and tribalism if about the biggest issue with it"[multiculturalism]. Funny, I've said it repeatedly and often, but I suppose some just want to see what they want to see. Blinkers set to full.

As for "race". Well it doesn't exist in the older, if still all too accepted sense, but let's imagine it did, then answer me this if you would be so kind? If Ireland, Europe and the West in general is in such dire need of diversity to be a better society, would you say the same of Ghana, or Saudi Arabia, or Korea, or Tanzania? Do they require the same multiculturalism and need to import say a hundred thousand White or Asian folks? When Irish NGO's discuss immigration and diversity they pretty much never even mention the 150,000 odd pale faced non Irish folks living here. It does seem that so called multiculturalism is just as "race" aware and focussed and blind as any skinhead racists are.

Never mind that the same "cabal" of right winger business types also argue for more open borders and more migration. Hardline capitalists and socialists make for strange bedfellows indeed.

As well as being crap at the English language, relying as they do on meaningless American buzzwords.

I don't think Yeats is under any threat from any of us to be fair. Never mind that you criticise others for imported American guff and yet roll out the same re the whole Koch/Buchanan cabal angle. You're also reading from the Yank playbook, just from the "other side". Then again political self awareness is rarely to be found in ideologues of all stripes. QV your earlier example of only fascists curtail the press.

CBear1993

Sorry if a bit off-thread topic -

I'm in my mid 20s and I really still enjoy lifting a newspaper once or twice a week in the shop and reading it. It's a great break from technology, instead of getting our news through social media or the headlines that pop up on iphones.

Just find it quite therapeutic, all the different sections, even the ones I'm not interested in.

I have to admit though I don't think there are many like me under 40? My friends/girlfriend laugh at me for reading them still today

If you subscribe to one of the irish newspapers, it's what €3/4 per month? I don't know.

I just don't want to spend more time scrolling through a newspaper on an ipad or laptop, god knows we do enough of that during the day.

Danno

What the left don't seem to grasp is that by demonising anyone that doesn't share their views as "pick-your-victim"-ophobe, deplorables, racists, nazis, God-botherers, etc... is that they are effectively pushing people towards electing Trump, Johnson, Duda, etc...

The media have skin in the game here. Take this article this morning: https://www.thejournal.ie/poland-election-duda-rule-of-law-result-lgbt-5148992-Jul2020/

Not one person who voted for Duda was interviewed, let alone asked why would someone vote for Duda.

Read the headline: Doom, no optimism.
Read the content: Demonising LGBT is one of the first ports of call. It seems to be the yardstick of how "progressive" a country is - how society there fawns over what two people get up to between the sheets. No mention of how Duda's progressive welfare reforms have lifted many Poles out of poverty. Cause none of that matters to the media as it's never highlighted.
Further down the article it fawns again over how some Poles in Ireland "suggested that a younger population, used to marriage equality and abortion rights gaining widespread mainstream support, would be much less likely to support the populist Duda"
Again, all liberal issues pushed to the fore.

Tell me how

What strikes me across various threads over at least the last couple of years is that on many arguments x number of posters don't put any great time in to thinking about ideologues or where exactly something is on any sort of political spectrum. It seems to me, many are motivated very much from the perspective of 'what will this mean to me' and as a consequence rail against social welfare supports, because they're not getting them, are against immigration or positive action to correct gender imbalance because they like things pretty much as they are and are against any sort of conversation about meaningful change to tackle climate issue because that will definitely impact on them or their pocket. Is this right wing? Maybe not, in the conventional sense, but neither is it correct to say that those more accepting of positive action in terms of the above are identifiable as definitely 'Left' or 'Woke' or whatever other term of choice is in flavour.

I've taken to somewhat lightheartedly identifying some posters as members of the Status Quo fan club as I think that is really what their focus is more so than any great political position arrived to after analysis and reflection.

And I'm sure they would no doubt view any advocate for change as being a member of some hippie group or whatever and maybe they are right. But, which is better, a world where people advocate for someone other than themselves, or a world where power is king, and you've either got it, or you don't and if not, c'est la vie? The answer isn't definitively one or the other, but if it had to be, I'd rather be reaching out to help someone than putting my boot on their neck to keep them down.

Brian?

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

This is what happens when people aren't prepared to pay for stuff. Same thing has been happening in music for the last 20 years. Standards slip!

I appreciate that the Irish Independent may not be to everyone's liking but I am more than happy to pay a couple of euro each week/month to keep it going.

It’s funny, I worked for the Indo in the late 90s and wouldn’t read it when it was free in front of me. I’d buy the Irish Times on my days off.

The Indo has been a sensationalist rag for years.

Wibbs

Danno wrote: »

The media have skin in the game here. Take this article this morning: https://www.thejournal.ie/poland-election-duda-rule-of-law-result-lgbt-5148992-Jul2020/

Not one person who voted for Duda was interviewed, let alone asked why would someone vote for Duda.

Read the headline: Doom, no optimism.
Read the content: Demonising LGBT is one of the first ports of call. It seems to be the yardstick of how "progressive" a country is - how society there fawns over what two people get up to between the sheets. No mention of how Duda's progressive welfare reforms have lifted many Poles out of poverty. Cause none of that matters to the media as it's never highlighted.
Further down the article it fawns again over how some Poles in Ireland "suggested that a younger population, used to marriage equality and abortion rights gaining widespread mainstream support, would be much less likely to support the populist Duda"
Again, all liberal issues pushed to the fore.

Pretty much and very transparently with it. Even the pic of him. Jaysus. Should have photoshopped horns on his head and be done with it. Not asking those who voted for him is pure bias indeed and shows they're afraid to, just in case someone didn't come out with "death to de gaaays". Would I have voted for this Duda eejit? Nope. However I prefer not to have bias and propaganda pushed so obviously, while claiming to be an unbiased organ of news. That's the blatant dishonest hypocrisy of it right there. Then again it is the Journal, an outlet that appears to be staffed by right on first year students of journalism who got their hands on something more than a blog or photocopier so no shock really.

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

The Indo has been a sensationalist rag for years.

True enough and doesn't live up to its title either.

MrMusician18

sid waddell wrote: »

They're straight out of the Charles Koch/James Buchanan US Republican party playbook. Koch and Buchanan were extremely clear when discussing matters of media and political strategy among their cabal of anarcho-capitalist loons that they they would lie as to their real aims, which was to destroy all forms of social security and regulation, and create a Lord Of The Flies type society of the ultra rich versus serfs.

This is now by far the dominant ideology of the Republican party.

Similarly here, we have a cabal of far right posters who are entirely disingenuous as to their real aims for society, because if they voiced them, they know they'd get thrown off the forum, because they're essentially white supremacist, fascist views.

On the topic of the thread, journalism is in trouble because of the capitalist ideology of cut, cut, cut and working the ever diminishing group of remaining staff to the bone, often on stupid things which are more about keeping their employer's publication in the public eye such as social media presence.

Journalism costs money.

Let's be clear here though - both right-wing and fascist ideology utterly opposes and despises the concept of actual journalism because those of such ideology hate scrutiny.

You have to ask yourself, why would the fascist, racist, shamelessly corrupt and traitorous Donald Trump hate journalism?

Why would the corrupt, racist Boris Johnson hate journalism?

Why would the Nazi-loving Irish fascist Justin Barrett and his small band of cultists (many of whom populate this forum) hate journalism?

An interesting corollary to this point is why are so many Irish politicians comfortable with journalists?

KiKi III

MrMusician18 wrote: »

An interesting corollary to this point is why are so many Irish politicians comfortable with journalists?

They were all in the same debating society in college.

Wibbs

KiKi III wrote: »

They were all in the same debating society in college.

And if journalists want to keep in the loop and have access to politicians they have to play the game. If they don't, well they don't get invited back.

Invidious

Tell me how wrote: »

It seems to me, many are motivated very much from the perspective of 'what will this mean to me' and as a consequence rail against social welfare supports, because they're not getting them, are against immigration or positive action to correct gender imbalance because they like things pretty much as they are and are against any sort of conversation about meaningful change to tackle climate issue because that will definitely impact on them or their pocket.

Few would argue for removing all social welfare supports. But when the public sees cases like Margaret Cash, whose life plan involves having endless children to increase her welfare entitlements, and demanding that the state provide her with a foreva home in the area of her choosing, it's not surprising that some people look at their PAYE tax deductions and feel that the system is biased against them.

What does it mean to be "against immigration"? Few would argue that bringing educated, qualified, hardworking people into the country is a bad idea. But when only 40% of adult African immigrants to Ireland are employed, it's legitimate to ask why we've let so many people come here, not work, and avail of generous social welfare supports.

Positive action to correct gender imbalance? At a time when girls outperform boys at school, earn the majority of third-level qualifications, and enter high-earning professions like medicine and law at a higher rate, it's natural to ask why we need gender quotas and women-only jobs.

Tackling climate change? Most are happy to do their bit, but climate activists demand Greta-level zealotry that most people find unfeasible. Never fly anywhere? We live on a small island. Stop driving and use public transport? Fine for D4 urbanites, but entirely impractical across large stretches of the country.

In any case, people may and do disagree on these issues, but that doesn't make them far-right extremists, as one poster keeps insisting. The Irish political spectrum tends to run from far left to centre-right, with a few outliers on the far right, and that's reflected on this forum. To act like the "majority" of posters are promoting some alt-right or far-right ideology is patently absurd.

Tell me how

Wibbs wrote: »

And if journalists want to keep in the loop and have access to politicians they have to play the game. If they don't, well they don't get invited back.

Carole Cadwalladr would agree with you.

Danno

Wibbs wrote: »

Pretty much and very transparently with it. Even the pic of him. Jaysus. Should have photoshopped horns on his head and be done with it. Not asking those who voted for him is pure bias indeed and shows they're afraid to, just in case someone didn't come out with "death to de gaaays". Would I have voted for this Duda eejit? Nope. However I prefer not to have bias and propaganda pushed so obviously, while claiming to be an unbiased organ of news. That's the blatant dishonest hypocrisy of it right there. Then again it is the Journal, an outlet that appears to be staffed by right on first year students of journalism who got their hands on something more than a blog or photocopier so no shock really.

Yes! I meant to highlight that too, but rushed my post a bit!

Tell me how

Invidious wrote: »

In any case, people may and do disagree on these issues, but that doesn't make them far-right extremists, as one poster keeps insisting. The Irish political spectrum tends to run from far left to centre-right, with a few outliers on the far right, and that's reflected on this forum. To act like the "majority" of posters are promoting some alt-right or far-right ideology is patently absurd.

And anyone who thinks positive action can be a positive thing is not necessarily a libtard, woke, SJW, 'the left' etc, etc, etc.

It's not just one group that is categorised in a dramatic fashion.

mariaalice

The big thing I find in the Irish context is that the right has no intellectual depth its mostly is prejudice or pandering or loonies of one sort or another.

Can anyone name a conservative or right-wing public intellectual in Ireland? economist, historian, a lawyer, a serious intellectual politician, etc

There are a small few journalists but only two could be considered a serious journalist and are often most concerned with traditional family values.

And it is not becaue they are not given a platform.

Silentcorner

mariaalice wrote: »

The big thing I find in the Irish context is that the right has no intellectual depth its mostly is prejudice or pandering or loonies of one sort or another.

Can anyone name a conservative or right-wing public intellectual in Ireland? economist, historian, a lawyer, a serious intellectual politician, etc

There are a small few journalists but only two could be considered a serious journalist and are often most concerned with traditional family values.

And it is not becaue they are not given a platform.

Can you point to the people on the intellectual left you seem to think are out there who aren't pandering or riddled in prejudice?

Nermal

Tell me how wrote: »

It seems to me, many are motivated very much from the perspective of 'what will this mean to me' and as a consequence rail against social welfare supports, because they're not getting them, are against immigration or positive action to correct gender imbalance because they like things pretty much as they are and are against any sort of conversation about meaningful change to tackle climate issue because that will definitely impact on them or their pocket.

The answer isn't definitively one or the other, but if it had to be, I'd rather be reaching out to help someone than putting my boot on their neck to keep them down.

Your examples of 'progress' are just re-allocation. Taxation and 'positive' discrimination.

Effectively, reaching out to help someone, while also putting the metaphorical boot on someone else's neck.

We see through it.

Grow the pie. Don't try to steal someone else's slice.

Tell me how

Nermal wrote: »

Your examples of 'progress' are just re-allocation. Taxation and 'positive' discrimination.

Effectively, reaching out to help someone, while also putting the metaphorical boot on someone else's neck.

We see through it.

Grow the pie. Don't try to steal someone else's slice.

And around and around we go....

Invidious

Tell me how wrote: »

And anyone who thinks positive action can be a positive thing is not necessarily a libtard, woke, SJW, 'the left' etc, etc, etc.

That is true — and yet, when we see Irish Times articles such as "Toppling statues is just the beginning: How to make Irish culture less racist," it's clear that the woke cultural revolution is making inroads in Ireland, especially among the young educated urban population. It's not wrong to note that people with such views are adopting the same ideological stance that animates one side of the current American culture war.

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

Can you point to the people on the intellectual left you seem to think are out there who aren't pandering or riddled in prejudice?

Do you see any prejudice in assuming that anyone concerned with improving the lives of others is 'pandering'?

Tell me how

Invidious wrote: »

That is true — and yet, when we see Irish Times articles such as "Toppling statues is just the beginning: How to make Irish culture less racist," it's clear that the woke cultural revolution is making inroads in Ireland, especially among the young educated urban population. It's not wrong to note that people with such views are adopting the same ideological stance that animates one side of the current American culture war.

Do you really think that the author, a black Irish woman, needed a woke cultural revolution to suggest to her that there may be a need for steps taken towards inclusivity in Ireland?

MrMusician18

Wibbs wrote: »

And if journalists want to keep in the loop and have access to politicians they have to play the game. If they don't, well they don't get invited back.

That's a valid point, but some of the chummy behavior as seen on Twitter during covid goes well beyond maintaining mutually beneficial professional relationships.

Silentcorner

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you see any prejudice in assuming that anyone concerned with improving the lives of others is 'pandering'?

I didn't use those terms I repeated them, maybe you should ask the poster I quoted.

Kivaro

Invidious wrote: »

That is true — and yet, when we see Irish Times articles such as "Toppling statues is just the beginning: How to make Irish culture less racist," it's clear that the woke cultural revolution is making inroads in Ireland, especially among the young educated urban population. It's not wrong to note that people with such views are adopting the same ideological stance that animates one side of the current American culture war.

That genre of publication, continuously propagated by the Irish Times, has only negative consequences. It creates a divisive society because of the constant stream from RTE/Times that the country as a whole is racist.

sid waddell

mariaalice wrote: »

The big thing I find in the Irish context is that the right has no intellectual depth its mostly is prejudice or pandering or loonies of one sort or another.

Can anyone name a conservative or right-wing public intellectual in Ireland? economist, historian, a lawyer, a serious intellectual politician, etc

There are a small few journalists but only two could be considered a serious journalist and are often most concerned with traditional family values.

And it is not becaue they are not given a platform.

Three of the big "heroes" of the Irish right-wing were Kevin Myers, George Hook and John Waters.

Myers outed himself as an anti-Semite.

Hook decided to blame rape victims for their own rape and longed for the days when husbands could rape their wives without sanction.

Waters is now full on fash and best buds with Gemtrails.

And at least two of these styled themselves as "intellectuals".

I think that's the "intellectualism" of the Irish right-wing summed up neatly there.

Now they're left with David "President John Waters" Quinn, Maria "shut up while I shout over you" Steen, the fake news JC McQuaid wannabes of grift.ie, the fake Facebook competitions, data harvesting and plagiarised, distorted stories with a far right slant of Leo "Walter Mitty" Sherlock, and a few barely literate student misfit rags.

Oh, and Nazi-loving Justin Barrett, Soldier F wannabe Tan Torino, Ben of the family Gilroy ("I'll break your ****ing face") and the Burkes of Castlebar, Ireland's answer to the Westboro Baptist Church.

Intellectualism and the self-styled Irish right-wing is a complete oxymoron.

TheCitizen

Kivaro wrote: »

That genre of publication, continuously propagated by the Irish Times, has only negative consequences. It creates a divisive society because of the constant stream from RTE/Times that the country as a whole is racist.

This is totally over the top commentary, typical of what passes for comment around here these days. I think you said you have me on ignore, not surprised when I pull you up consistently on this kind of ott gibberish.

This quoted comment btw is from the op of this thread. I think we can safely say despite his thread title that he wasn't interested in a discussion re "the decline of Irish journalism", but rather he was using that as an opportunity to grind his axe against progressivism etc.

sid waddell

Kivaro wrote: »

That genre of publication, continuously propagated by the Irish Times, has only negative consequences. It creates a divisive society because of the constant stream from RTE/Times that the country as a whole is racist.

Apparently it's very important that we stop objecting to racism.

It's so "divisive" - it greatly offends the racists.

Hey, anti-racists - shut up and know your place!

TheCitizen

sid waddell wrote: »

Three of the big "heroes" of the Irish right-wing were Kevin Myers, George Hook and John Waters.

Myers outed himself as an anti-Semite.

Hook decided to blame rape victims for their own rape and longed for the days when husbands could rape their wives without sanction.

Waters is now full on fash and best buds with Gemtrails.

And at least two of these styled themselves as "intellectuals".

I think that's the "intellectualism" of the Irish right-wing summed up neatly there.

Now they're left with David "President John Waters" Quinn, Maria "shut up while I shout over you" Steen, the fake news JC McQuaid wannabes of grift.ie, the fake Facebook competitions, data harvesting and plagiarised, distorted stories with a far right slant of Leo "Walter Mitty" Sherlock, and a few barely literate student misfit rags.

Oh, and Nazi-loving Justin Barrett, Soldier F wannabe Tan Torino, Ben of the family Gilroy ("I'll break your ****ing face") and the Burkes of Castlebar, Ireland's answer to the Westboro Baptist Church.

Intellectualism and the self-styled Irish right-wing is a complete oxymoron.

The ironically titled "The Liberal.ie". A total cod, like the misleading title of this thread.