The decline of Irish journalism

Galwayguy35

KiKi III wrote: »

They also have Breda O'Brien as a regular columnist, and often have articles from Bishops etc.

The fact is, as shown in the last three referenda and the recent election, Irish people are far, far less conservative and right wing than they used to be.

If the paper leans more liberal and left-wing, it's because the population does.

Out of interest, what right wing commentators would you like to see given more of a platform?

I want to see more balanced articles reflecting both sides, not just throwing in the odd article from a bishop or Steen.

Depends what you think is liberal, if its the kind of D4 leftie then its definitely not the majority of people unless you are one of them and think thats how people are.

Kivaro

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I want to see more balanced articles reflecting both sides, not just throwing in the odd article from a bishop or Steen.

Depends what you think is liberal, if its the kind of D4 leftie then its definitely not the majority of the people unless you are one of them and think thats how people are.

You see .......... that is what I believe the majority in this country want i.e. an opportunity for both sides to express their views. Then we can make an informed decision.
At the moment with a lot of social issues/questions, there is just the one side that is presented, and if you try to present anything that deviates from that GroupThink, then the "phobe" and racism accusations are hurled at you.

That is not a healthy democracy.

MrMusician18

KiKi III wrote: »

It makes sense to me that newspapers, who closely guard their right to freedom of speech/ expression, would not be quick to criticise protestors exercising the same right in a different way.

And that's fine, they are allowed to take any editorial stance they wish. Just don't expect me to buy their paper or sub or for me to miss them if their businesses fail.

I would however expect a newspapers editor to distinguish between criticising lightning strikes and limitations on freedom of expression (the latter I wasn't advocating).You can call a strike wrong without calling for it to be illegal.

Tork

The pay model is wrong for starters. Why is it an all or nothing approach with the newspapers? Maybe if they let people buy a 24 hour pass rather than forcing them to subscribe, they might take in more money. If I buy a newspaper in the newsagent once a week, it doesn't mean I want to buy it for the other 6 days. All these subscriptions people have mount up after a while and a newspaper one may be a step too far. If you can get an occasional €2 or €3 24 hour pass, for example, it'd be money they'd not otherwise taking in.

KiKi III

Tork wrote: »

The pay model is wrong for starters. Why is it an all or nothing approach with the newspapers? Maybe if they let people buy a 24 hour pass rather than forcing them to subscribe, they might have more success.

My meditation app, my Netflix account, my gym etc are all subscription based services. And there are free alternatives to all of those too. Why is the model wrong for newspapers?

Brian Hartman

TheCitizen wrote: »

How would I show up the Alt right mob on here for what it is if I boycott. Nah, i'd rather stick around and expose you every now and again.

What are you exposing? And who are you exposing it to?

Tork

It depends how strongly you feel about paying for news, I suppose. And as we can see, an awful lot of people aren't willing to pay a subscription. Enticing them with the option of a one-off payment rather than a commitment might be worth a try. I subscribe to one newspaper so I'm doing more than what many are. If I want to read paywalled articles on other newspapers, I have no option but to subscribe to them too. I have no intention of having €50 going out of my bank account every month on newspapers, much as I'd like to support them.

TomTomTim

KiKi III wrote: »

My meditation app, my Netflix account, my gym etc are all subscription based services. And there are free alternatives to all of those too. Why is the model wrong for newspapers?

All those things cost much for the creators, so the cost is just. Why in the world would I pay money to hear someones opinion, which is probably about 60% of "journalism" these days? The journalism that isn't opinion is often copied and pasted from other outlets, especially international news. So in the context of Ireland, all they really have to sell is national news, which I'd like to think would be covered by RTE. Anything that's not covered I can find on alternative news sites for free.

suicide_circus

Many journalists, like many educators, have taken on the mantle of "activist" - imparting approved opinions rather than impartial information.

KiKi III

TomTomTim wrote: »

All those things cost much for the creators, so the cost is just. Why in the world would I pay money to hear someones opinion, which is probably about 60% of "journalism" these days? The journalism that isn't opinion is often copied and pasted from other outlets, especially international news. So in the context of Ireland, all they really have to sell is national news, which I'd like to think would be covered by RTE. Anything that's not covered I can find on alternative news sites for free.

What you're describing there is the problem.

Real journalists go out, research and cover a story. This costs money. It requires experienced journalists and resources, so newspapers have to charge in order to cover the costs.

Then ****ty online outlets like The Journal or Broadsheet cover the story, put none of the time or resources into it, simply report on what the original journalist has discovered, and because of that they can give it for 'free'.

Polling is a perfect example of this; the Irish Times spends a fortune polling 1,000+ people at 30 locations nationwide; a time and resource intensive activity they pay the polling company a fortune for. Then all the other papers run "According to the Irish Times, Sinn Fein are up 6%" having put nothing into it, and can then do 'analysis' pieces.

mariaalice

Kivaro wrote: »

Maybe I used the wrong word "decline" in the thread title.
What I was getting at was the decline in quality, impartiality, etc.
The recent Irish Times Kitty Holland's poorly written story on the homeless mother in the car comes to mind.

The decrease of advertising, the advance of online media etc. and especially Covid-19 are understandable reasons for the physical decline of Irish journalism. What I wanted to discuss is the lack of journalistic integrity and impartiality on many reports and opinion pieces that are presented by journalists and editors in Ireland; that's the decline I'm talking about.

What is the obsession with print media very few under 30 read print media when was irish journalism impartial?

StackSteevens

ronivek wrote: »

As to criticisms about the lack of real investigative journalism or analysis; this isn’t a uniquely Irish issue and can be seen across just about every facet of media due to the transformation driven by the Internet and Social Media. Also due to the fact many of the functions ascribed to the media in a de facto manner in the past are now driven by Government agencies directly via tribunal and commission.

So, in essence, you agree with the thrust of this thread. Why not just say so?

excludedbin

Kivaro wrote: »

You see .......... that is what I believe the majority in this country want i.e. an opportunity for both sides to express their views. Then we can make an informed decision.
At the moment with a lot of social issues/questions, there is just the one side that is presented, and if you try to present anything that deviates from that GroupThink, then the "phobe" and racism accusations are hurled at you.

That is not a healthy democracy.

Problem is, as the polls show, that side is just an extremely, extremely vocal minority. The real majority of people are just ordinary people, not loopers screaming about immigrants and how even the mildest criticism is them being "silenced". Most people don't carry around a chip the size of the Eiffel Tower and start crying about being called 'racist' for being a racist.

The problem people like you have is you're wedged firmly into an echo chamber and don't interact with normal people. You think your views are held by the majority when time and again, it's demonstrated they aren't. Both polls and election results show that.

mariaalice

The Irish Time is a good paper but has got sloppy in the last while poor editing, the fact that journalism as a career is losing its status is reflected in the paper.

Journalism has become a waiting point to a career as a special adviser

KiKi III

mariaalice wrote: »

The Irish Time is a good paper but has got sloppy in the last while poor editing, the fact that journalism as a career is losing its status is reflected in the paper.

Journalism has become a waiting point to a career as a special adviser

I'd agree with this. I'm just not sure it's reasonable to expect them to maintain the same standards they had when everyone bought a newspaper i.e. contributed to the bottom line.

They're in sore need of some decent sub-editors but with revenues declining constantly it's tough to make that happen.

Tork

It's a chicken and egg thing. Being a journalist isn't the career it was and the quality of journalism has dropped. Therefore people don't feel they're missing out on anything by not buying a newspaper or subscribing. Round and round it goes. It's a sobering thought to consider that John Delaney would still be at the head of the FAI and leading the tributes to Jack Charlton this weekend if the Sunday Times hadn't put its might behind its journalists who broke all those stories. The other newspapers didn't have the will or the financial might to square up to him. The biggest story on the Indo these days is Barry Cowen's driving escapades. While it's important that a story like that makes the news, it isn't exactly cutting edge journalism is it?

Tork

KiKi III wrote: »

I'd agree with this. I'm just not sure it's reasonable to expect them to maintain the same standards they had when everyone bought a newspaper i.e. contributed to the bottom line.

They're in sore need of some decent sub-editors but with revenues declining constantly it's tough to make that happen.

And that is why I think they should offer the additional option of a one-off payment for a 24 hour pass. People don't have a problem making a micro payment to buy more lives on Candy Crush so what's so different about a virtual newspaper purchase? It might appeal to the sort of people who might have picked up a newspaper in the newsagent on impulse in the old days.

TheCitizen

KiKi III wrote: »

They also have Breda O'Brien as a regular columnist, and often have articles from Bishops etc.

The fact is, as shown in the last three referenda and the recent election, Irish people are far, far less conservative and right wing than they used to be.

If the paper leans more liberal and left-wing, it's because the population does.

Out of interest, what right wing commentators would you like to see given more of a platform?

Doesn't David Quinn write for them? They used to have right wing loons like Kevin Myers writing for them. I don't think they're as Lefty as 'Galwayguy' there makes out but of course they'd never be Right wing enough for him.

Oscar Madison

https://www.google.ie/search?source=hp&ei=m04LX73aOoe6gAbBq6-wAQ&q=irish+independent+female+journalists&oq=female+journalists+irish+inde&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAxgAMgYIABAWEB46CAgAELEDEIMBOgUIABCxAzoCCAA6BAgAEAM6BAgAEAo6BggAEAcQHjoECAAQDVCGEFjuigFgv5oBaABwAHgAgAFYiAHgDJIBAjI5mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab

I wonder if this has anything to do with it?
I hardly read newspapers so maybe someone out there can
argue the case here. And yes I can recall a few decent female
journalists in my time!

KiKi III

TheCitizen wrote: »

Doesn't David Quinn write for them? They used to have right wing loons like Kevin Myers writing for them. I don't think they're as Lefty as 'Galwayguy' there makes out but of course they'd never be Right wing enough for him.

I'd consider the majority of IT writers quite centrist. A little too cosy with the establishment for sure, that's a valid criticism, but certainly not very left.

People who hate feminism/ feminists can't stand that the paper has an entire TWO of them on the payroll now, Una and Roe. They act like those two columns represent the entire paper which isn't the case at all.

The majority of their journalists are middle aged, middle class men.

Oscar Madison

My issue though is are better journalists being side-lined to gender balance the numbers?
I don't believe in this as in my opinion you're either good enough or you're not!

TheCitizen

KiKi III wrote: »

I'd consider the majority of IT writers quite centrist. A little too cosy with the establishment for sure, that's a valid criticism, but certainly not very left.

People who hate feminism/ feminists can't stand that the paper has an entire TWO of them on the payroll now, Una and Roe. They act like those two columns represent the entire paper which isn't the case at all.

The majority of their journalists are middle aged, middle class men.

The SIndo used to be the biggest selling paper in the country when people bought papers. They were very right wing, CC O'Brien, Eoghan Harris, Ruth Dudley Edwards Mary Ellen Synon. Bar Gene Kerrigan it was a right wing stable reflecting the views of Sir Anthony O'Reilly. However on here the traditional Irish MSM were Lefties according to the cabal.

Just goes to show that a big lump of the volume of chat on here is Extreme Alt Right type opinion. This site has become totally skewed to the Far Right and therefore anything a bit left of them are deemed lefty/liberal/feminist/SJW etc etc etc..

mariaalice

TheCitizen wrote: »

Doesn't David Quinn write for them? They used to have right wing loons like Kevin Myers writing for them. I don't think they're as Lefty as 'Galwayguy' there makes out but of course they'd never be Right wing enough for him.

They reflect the middle-class background of the journalists and it has got worse over the years, Fintan O'Toole is a very good journalist and Johh Waters before he became a loon had his moments.

Brian Hartman

TheCitizen wrote: »

Just goes to show that a big lump of the volume of chat on here is Extreme Alt Right type opinion. This site has become totally skewed to the Far Right and therefore anything a bit left of them are deemed lefty/liberal/feminist/SJW etc etc etc..

'Extreme Alt Right'...please try to stay rational.

mariaalice

KiKi III wrote: »

I'd consider the majority of IT writers quite centrist. A little too cosy with the establishment for sure, that's a valid criticism, but certainly not very left.

People who hate feminism/ feminists can't stand that the paper has an entire TWO of them on the payroll now, Una and Roe. They act like those two columns represent the entire paper which isn't the case at all.

The majority of their journalists are middle aged, middle class men.

Una Mullally is a good journalist Roe McDermott come across as a seriously strange woman. I like quirky staff like Frank McNally.

r3nu4l

KiKi III wrote: »

My meditation app, my Netflix account, my gym etc are all subscription based services. And there are free alternatives to all of those too. Why is the model wrong for newspapers?

A service has to be of a consistently high standard and quality before people will be willing to subscribe to it. The service also has to feel consistently worth it.

In many cases, a pay service should have unique content that you either can't get anywhere else, or it's not so easy to get that content somewhere else (e.g, from dodgy sites with qurstionable, spammy ads).

Irish newspapers don't reach any of those milestones for me and so I don't subscribe to them. The closest for me would possibly be The Irish Times but it's not unique enough and I can get similar need elsewhere.

Paywalls, also have other negative events: I no longer even visit independent.ie, whereas before Premium came in, I visited that site multiple times every day. I haven't been onto the site in months and I don't click on any suggestions from Google news to bring me there. Only last week I instructed Google not to show me stories from independent.ie any more.

I'm probably not alone in doing this which means that the page impressions on the site may have dropped overall and big advertisers usually want to know those numbers.

Before anyone thinks I'm just not into subscription models, I subscribe to Netflix, Spotify, Prime video, NowTV (movies), Disney+ and I occasionally subscribe to Audible (depending on what deals are on).

r3nu4l

Double post

TheCitizen

Brian Hartman wrote: »

'Extreme Alt Right'...please try to stay rational.

There's nothing rational about the extreme Right wing views that now proliferate on this website. The Irish MSM painted as Lefties etc., absolute nonsense. Plenty of Right Wing views given a platform in the Irish MSM and always has been. if anything a lot of mainstream publications like the SIndo etc. were very Right wing dominated.

KiKi III

r3nu4l wrote: »

A service has to be of a consistently high standard and quality before people will be willing to subscribe to it. The service also has to feel consistently worth it.

In many cases, a pay service should have unique content that you either can't get anywhere else, or it's not so easy to get that content somewhere else (e.g, from dodgy sites with qurstionable, spammy ads).

Irish newspapers don't reach any of those milestones for me and so I don't subscribe to them. The closest for me would possibly be The Irish Times but it's not unique enough and I can get similar need elsewhere.

Paywalls, also have other negative events: I no longer even visit independent.ie, whereas before Premium came in, I visited that site multiple times every day. I haven't been onto the site in months and I don't click on any suggestions from Google news to bring me there. Only last week I instructed Google not to show me stories from independent.ie any more.

I'm probably not alone in doing this which means that the page impressions on the site may have dropped overall and big advertisers usually want to know those numbers.

Before anyone thinks I'm just not into subscription models, I subscribe to Netflix, Spotify, Prime video, NowTV (movies), Disney+ and I occasionally subscribe to Audible (depending on what deals are on).

But there's all kinds of sh1te on Netflix, lots of music on Spotify you probably think is crap etc. You subscribe because of the bits you value.

Brian Hartman

TheCitizen wrote: »

There's nothing rational about the extreme Right wing views that now proliferate on this website. The Irish MSM painted as Lefties etc., absolute nonsense. Plenty of Right Wing views given a platform in the Irish MSM and always has been. if anything a lot of mainstream publications like the SIndo etc. were very Right wing dominated.

Lol, Boards is not /pol/