The decline of Irish journalism

KiKi III

[Deleted User] wrote: »

:pac:


I assumed there was a party structure behind them,as they were in government and surely would have attracted members

No, they had a decent first election and never did nearly as well again. The electorate rejected them as they rejected Renua and Aontú; it’s not that more right-wing parties don’t exist, people just don’t want to vote for them.

Renua was launched by high profile FG exile Lucinda Creighton from whom big things were expected. Aontú by Peadar Toibín formerly of Sinn Fein. Both left the parties they came up through the ranks in on the grounds of being anti-abortion, only to discover post-referendum that most people don’t vote on single issues in general elections.

Invidious

KiKi III wrote: »

Granted they did have more impact than most parties of that size would due to their parts in coalitions, I think it’s massively overstating it to say they shaped Ireland more than FF between the 80s and mid 00s.

I think it's fairly accurate to say that the PDs reshaped FF and FF reshaped Ireland. The tail wagged the dog so successfully that the PDs influence was phenomenal.

Either way, my point was they never captured the imagination of the electorate after their first outing. There’s no real demand for a right wing party.

It depends how one defines a "right-wing party." The PDs were never remotely comparable to Aontú or Renua, in that they were both socially and economically liberal.

KiKi III

Invidious wrote: »

I think it's fairly accurate to say that the PDs reshaped FF and FF reshaped Ireland. The tail wagged the dog so successfully that the PDs influence was phenomenal.



It depends how one defines a "right-wing party." The PDs were never remotely comparable to Aontú or Renua, in that they were both socially and economically liberal.

I’d describe them as centre-right.

Invidious

KiKi III wrote: »

I’d describe them as centre-right.

The PDs were way ahead of their time in calling for reforms on divorce, contraception, abortion, etc. In that sense, they were markedly different from conservative parties like Aontu that embrace a traditional Catholic ethos.

Their "right-wing" policies on deregulation and tax cuts were much-needed in the 1980s and 90s, and did much to help Ireland achieve widespread prosperity for the first time in the state's history.

I think there's a real need for a party like the PDs today. If (God forbid) Sinn Fein and the left manage to form a government after the next election, that need will become even more clear.

KiKi III

And on Peter Casey, he attracted a large protest vote in a Presidential election that was in the bag for Michael D, but he’s contested two elections since (European and general) and his anti-traveller, anti-immigrant rhetoric hasn’t won him a seat.

At some point we have to accept that people just aren’t that into it.

MrMusician18

excludedbin wrote: »

Oh pull the other one. We absolutely do hear about immigration fraud and Travellers committing crimes but the sad truth is it's just not at the level you lot think it is, so you make up these fanciful ideas to explain it. Unless you somehow have access to evidence that proves the opposite. Which is always the most tedious part of all this, none of you can ever present anything to prove that these matters are as bad as you claim.

I'm not that sure we do. Look at the recent CAB raids, they were on halting sites. That wasn't in the national reports.

Melanchthon

KiKi III wrote: »

And on Peter Casey, he attracted a large protest vote in a Presidential election that was in the bag for Michael D, but he’s contested two elections since (European and general) and his anti-traveller, anti-immigrant rhetoric hasn’t won him a seat.

At some point we have to accept that people just aren’t that into it.

Peter Casey is just rubbish though, the big bump he got after his comments was more suprising because he was useless.

In terms of the Irish media and it's reporting of certain things you can see websites like dublinlive reporting stories that aren't covered by the broadsheets.

Melanchthon

KiKi III wrote: »

And on Peter Casey, he attracted a large protest vote in a Presidential election that was in the bag for Michael D, but he’s contested two elections since (European and general) and his anti-traveller, anti-immigrant rhetoric hasn’t won him a seat.

At some point we have to accept that people just aren’t that into it.

Peter Casey is just rubbish though, the big bump he got after his comments was more suprising because he was useless.

In terms of the Irish media and it's reporting of certain things you can see websites like dublinlive reporting stories that aren't covered by the broadsheets.

growleaves

Either way, my point was [the PD's] never captured the imagination of the electorate after their first outing. There’s no real demand for a right wing party.

They never captured my imagination. But then they were neoliberal technocrats and pursued that in a businesslike way.

The point to me about newspapers is the dislike of scolding and oppression theory, which is neither proved nor disproved by the absence of a successful charismatic right-wing party. Which could exist in theory, since we've seen it in other countries.

A specifically Christian party could only do well if more people became serious Christians (not necessarily Catholics). No sign of that happening.

growleaves

I think there's a real need for a party like the PDs today. If (God forbid) Sinn Fein and the left manage to form a government after the next election, that need will become even more clear.

We have Thatcherite-lite with FF and FG, so what do we need another PDs for? That combination of social and economic liberalism is what we have now, and people will roll the dice on SF to rein in the economic part of that.

boombang

On the reporting of traveller crime; we do hear about it in the papers, but it's almost never attributed to them, but you can very often read between the lines.

TheCitizen

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I understand your point but personally I feel Irish journalism and the media in general is too left or liberal biased.

You’ve never read the Sunday Independent or listened to Newstalk presenters so.

My point is that it appears that the majority of opinion is skewed to the right and often far right on here so the MSM in Ireland is probably to the left of that body of opinion on here. That doesn’t mean that the media in Ireland is exclusively or even heavily dominant left/Liberal, just left of most stuff on here which wouldn’t be hard.

ExMachina1000

TheCitizen wrote: »

You’ve never read the Sunday Independent or listened to Newstalk presenters so.

My point is that it appears that the majority of opinion is skewed to the right and often far right on here so the MSM in Ireland is probably to the left of that body of opinion on here. That doesn’t mean that the media in Ireland is exclusively or even heavily dominant left/Liberal, just left of most stuff on here which wouldn’t be hard.

Ciara Kelly lunch time show wouldn't really count now

TheCitizen

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Ciara Kelly lunch time show wouldn't really count now

Ciara Kelly is a feminist. On here that makes her a liberal lefty, she’s not really though. Alison O’Connor is similar. They advocate for feminism as you’d expect but they also generally advocate for whatever government parties are in power. Their views are hardly left.

Of course though as I was saying on here the mainstream is considered left, but that’s because this place is skewed heavily to the Right and to the newish Alt Right. All to do with perspective really.

Invidious

growleaves wrote: »

We have Thatcherite-lite with FF and FG, so what do we need another PDs for?

Parties that tax below-average incomes at 52%, impose one of the highest capital gains and inheritance tax rates in the world, fund a €20 billion cradle-to-grave welfare state, and maintain our massive public-sector gravy train can hardly be described as "Thatcherite."

Invidious

TheCitizen wrote: »

My point is that it appears that the majority of opinion is skewed to the right and often far right on here

Please give some examples of the "far-right" opinions that the majority of posters on this forum allegedly hold.

TheCitizen

Invidious wrote: »

Parties that tax below-average incomes at 52%, impose one of the highest capital gains and inheritance tax rates in the world, fund a €20 billion cradle-to-grave welfare state, and maintain our massive public-sector gravy train can hardly be described as "Thatcherite."

You won’t be happy until we live in a Thatcherite state or we become like the 51st state where if you’ve a lot of money you can access health care and if you don’t you’re left to die. People in this country want to see further improvements in standard of living and equality, as opposed to going back ways or following Trump’s US or Brexit Britain down the rabbit hole.

Striving for equality in society within reason in relation to issues like healthcare for example leads to a more cohesive society where citizens become stakeholders as opposed to being left out or behind. There’s a lot of work to do with that, that’s why the previous government lost a lot of support due to their mishandling of health and housing.

Go live in America if you want an “I’m alright Jack and fúck everyone else” society.

TheCitizen

Invidious wrote: »

Please give some examples of the "far-right" opinions that the majority of posters on this forum allegedly hold.

Have a read of this thread for a start. The op for example starts a thread titled “the decline in Irish journalism”, but the thread was really just another swipe at the erroneously on here perceived left/liberal mainstream media, who are deemed left/liberal not because they’re actually left/liberal but because a lot of prevailing opinion on this site is heavily heavily skewed to the Right and the Alt Right in some cases.

TomTomTim

TheCitizen wrote: »

Have a read of this thread for a start. The op for example starts a thread titled “the decline in Irish journalism”, but the thread was really just another swipe at the erroneously on here perceived left/liberal mainstream media, who are deemed left/liberal not because they’re actually left/liberal but because a lot of prevailing opinion on this site is heavily heavily skewed to the Right and the Alt Right in some cases.

You've been asked for specific examples of your claims in many threads and you always default to this "just look here" mindset. Gives us exact examples, or you might as well not bother making such claims.

Invidious

TheCitizen wrote: »

Have a read of this thread for a start. The op for example starts a thread titled “the decline in Irish journalism”, but the thread was really just another swipe at the erroneously on here perceived left/liberal mainstream media, who are deemed left/liberal not because they’re actually left/liberal but because a lot of prevailing opinion on this site is heavily heavily skewed to the Right and the Alt Right in some cases.

You're side-stepping my question.

Again, can you please give some examples of the "far-right" opinions that the majority of posters on this forum allegedly hold?

paw patrol

KiKi III wrote: »

No, they had a decent first election and never did nearly as well again. The electorate rejected them as they rejected Renua and Aontú; it’s not that more right-wing parties don’t exist, people just don’t want to vote for them.

Renua was launched by high profile FG exile Lucinda Creighton from whom big things were expected. Aontú by Peadar Toibín formerly of Sinn Fein. Both left the parties they came up through the ranks in on the grounds of being anti-abortion, only to discover post-referendum that most people don’t vote on single issues in general elections.

Renua and Aontu weren't single issue parties. That is just a myth a lazy one too.

I was very impressed by Tobin on Matt Cooper pre the last GE . For somebody considered a leftie he had some really unique pro business ideas.
Not all parties blast onto the scene , Aontu are still there and hopefully keep plodding along. These things take time and hopefully they will stay the course. The electorate in ireland are slow to change.

Time is something Renua's initial leadership weren't willing to give. I posted on this before how at the first sign of hard work they ran for the hills. Eddie Hobbs wanted to be a better George Lee but like Lee he found there was too much work involved - Hobbs was there on an ego run.
Creighton and the rest thought they'd win a few seats and hopefully be a coalition partner...when that didn't happen they went fcuk that and left the grassroots holding the can.

Some of Renua's principals were sound - the low tax, less government waste - I wasn't a fan on their tough on crime or drugs stance but you can't win them all . I've no idea why any PAYE worker wasn't drawn to them - less tax and more value for the tax you do pay.

CrankyHaus

paw patrol wrote: »

Time is something Renua's initial leadership weren't wiling to give. I posted on this before how at the first sign of hard work they ran for the hills. Eddie Hobbs wanted to be a better George Lee but like Lee he found there was too much work involved - Hobbs was there on an ego run.
Creighton and the rest thought they'd wina few seats and hopefully be a coalition partner...when that didn't happen they went fcuk that and left the grassroots holding the can.

This is a very good point, that gets overlooked in most commentary on Renua (a party I had little time for). Creighton really vanished when it looked like Renua wouldn't be the vehicle into government that she wanted it to be.


I mean during the actual Abortion Referendum Campaign, supposedly the issue she had to leave FG over, she was nowhere to be found, and eventually popped up on British TV (Newsnight I think) as a "Brexit Consultant".


I think forming a real political party in Ireland requires years and years of grassroots work, that most upstarts simply won't bother with. FF forming the cumann network from scratch is the best example. Modern SF has spent decades trying to emulate this and while they've done a good job they're still not all the way there. Even the tiny far-left parties that lasted have put in work in the localities they can get a vote from.



I'm not convinced that even the internet can supplant this as a basis for a real party. You might be able to rouse up a bunch of erratic malcontents but there is a hard ceiling on your support.

TheCitizen

TomTomTim wrote: »

You've been asked for specific examples of your claims in many threads and you always default to this "just look here" mindset. Gives us exact examples, or you might as well not bother making such claims.

Page 18 I wrote a comment with lots of examples. I mentioned another thread attacking progressivism with a poll attached that exemplified the skewed right wing views on this site. Your comment getting thanks as well. It’s there for all to see, the politics threads of this forum has been hijacked in my opinion by a cabal or Rightists and Alt Rightist views that isn’t reflective of Irish society.

It’s an absolute joke when a party like FG are regarded as left as they’ve been described by some on here. When MSM journalists generally advocating the government line on issues are labelled lefty liberals etc., when the government is made up largely of two centre right parties.

We’ve never had a left wing lead government in this country but on this site there’s a vocal cohort who’ll have you believe that the mainstream in Irish politics and media is left. Absolute nonsense and the sort of gibberish you get when the far right and alt right get a grip on a website like this one and drag everything to the right. It’s gone so bad that the site is becoming out of touch with real world views and is in danger of becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Wibbs

So no examples then?

TheCitizen

Invidious wrote: »

You're side-stepping my question.

Again, can you please give some examples of the "far-right" opinions that the majority of posters on this forum allegedly hold?

Not sidestepping anything. Have given a few examples already. I see you ignored the other point I put to you when I got you bang to rights.

TheCitizen

Wibbs wrote: »

So no examples then?

LOL. Another exhibit

Wibbs

TheCitizen wrote: »

LOL. Another exhibit

FYI "LOL" is not an argument, it's almost always in play when vocabulary fails, or there is no argument to be had.

So please, in your own time, give examples of this "far/alt right" politic you appear to see everywhere so clearly. It shouldn't be too hard surely?

Invidious

TheCitizen wrote: »

Absolute nonsense and the sort of gibberish you get when the far right and alt right get a grip on a website like this one and drag everything to the right.

As far as you're concerned, anyone who disagrees with the progressive/woke party line is some alt-right or far-right acolyte. If you can't see how detached from reality this perception is, you have my sympathy.

TheCitizen

Wibbs wrote: »

FYI "LOL" is not an argument, it's almost always in play when vocabulary fails, or there is no argument to be had.

So please, in your own time, give examples of this "far/alt right" politic you appear to see everywhere so clearly. It shouldn't be too hard surely?

I’ve given the examples above. Do you want me to keep repeating them just for you.

zerosugarbuzz

Pat Kenny faux outrage at Mary Lou not have if downloaded the Covid app. With all that going on in FF, FG and greens he had to grasp at that. Lol, this kind of biased “journalism” encourages me to vote Sinn Fein again at the next election for only the second time ever.