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Polish Presidential election

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Gay people have full civic and legal rights in Poland.

    They do have an issue with attempts to introduce transgenderism into school courses.

    Rather a different thing. Anyway, vox populi, and so on :)

    Would you say the Nazi regimes treatment of minorities was "vox populi and so on :)". They have an atrocious record on lgbt rights. You just seem to view it as something to be celebrated.


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    #33
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Cordell wrote: »
    No, they don't, they can't marry, that will be a civic right they don't have.
    Vox populi when used to refuse rights for a minority with no cost whatsoever for the majority is not democracy anymore, it's the tyranny of majority.

    The Irish people have decided to change the definition of marriage to include same-sex people.

    If another country decides to not do this, I don't see any problem.


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    #34
    Das Reich
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Devastating for Polish LGBT people

    Not many over there.


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    #35
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    Not everyone agrees that gay marriage is a "right."


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    #36
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Seamai wrote: »
    Well they don't have the right to marry for a start. I've been there many times as my partner is part Polish (but never lived there) and attitudes towards towards the LGBT community are still back in the dark ages for many Poles

    Duda's campaign was on the platform of banishing "LGBT propaganda" i.e. any form of "promotion" including education or anti-bullying workshops in schools. Wondering what happens to Pride or other events now, they were already under assault from nationalists. As in, assaulted physically.


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    #37
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Devastating for Polish LGBT people
    Yes, the majority of Polish people appears to have an issue with LGBT.


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    #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Not everyone agrees that gay marriage is a "right."

    Lgbt free zones, increases in attacks against lgbt groups.. Pretty reminiscent of other regimes but you're just gonna play it down.

    https://www.france24.com/en/20200711-lgbt-rights-at-heart-of-poland-presidential-election-fight


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    #39
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,996 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Not everyone agrees that gay marriage is a "right."

    That's cool, so they won't marry a gay person, and that is their right.
    Denying something to someone else, something that doesn't affect you in any way, well, that shouldn't be a right.


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    #40
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 33,105 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Gay people have full civic and legal rights in Poland.

    They do have an issue with attempts to introduce transgenderism into school courses.

    Rather a different thing. Anyway, vox populi, and so on :)
    Complete and utter BS.

    LGBT people are regularly targeted in Poland.
    It is not hard to find tonnes of examples of assaults, graffiti, poster campaigns etc.
    Massive areas of the country declared as LGBT free zones

    Some of his comments on gay people have been horrendous, this victory will likely make life for LGBT people in Poland even more difficult.

    And people ask why pride exists.....what about straight pride eh right?!? Ffs

    The one saving grace I can see is the younger age demographics were not voting for him.


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    #41
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,784 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    He also wants to make sure gay people are never allowed to adopt


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    #42
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,996 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Geuze wrote: »
    The Irish people have decided to change the definition of marriage to include same-sex people.

    If another country decides to not do this, I don't see any problem.

    That's a totally different situation.
    The Irish Constitution prevented gay marriage as a side effect of being too comprehensive, but that was not the intent, no one was thinking about same sex marriage when it was written.
    Putting something in it on purpose to deny some citizens some rights is something totally different, and proper democracy should prevent this.


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    #43
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Lgbt free zones, increases in attacks against lgbt groups.. Pretty reminiscent of other regimes but you're just gonna play it down.

    https://www.france24.com/en/20200711-lgbt-rights-at-heart-of-poland-presidential-election-fight



    These only become "rights" (which didn't even exist 30 years ago) if population gets to vote on them. Which they don't in lots of place.


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    #44
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    riffmongous wrote: »
    He also wants to make sure gay people are never allowed to adopt

    Again, another spurious recently invented "right."


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    #45
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 33,105 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    These only become "rights" (which didn't even exist 30 years ago) if population gets to vote on them. Which they don't in lots of place.
    Population get to vote on them?!
    You don't need a national vote to give people rights. Ireland had to have a vote the vast majority of other countries don't have to.
    E.g. when it came to gay marriage in Australia they held a totally non necessary postal vote which wasnt legally binding.

    You also should not have the majority deciding if a minority can or cannot have equal rights imo.


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    #46
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,784 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Again, another spurious recently invented "right."
    But yet people who are part of a paedo protecting organisation somehow automatically get that right? That's messed up


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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    These only become "rights" (which didn't even exist 30 years ago) if population gets to vote on them. Which they don't in lots of place.

    What I'm referring to is people getting attacked for being lgbt... They're being violently targeted in Poland... Duda is creating conspiracies about LGBT people to make them targets... So I'd say contrasts with totalitarian regimes is pretty apt.

    Here's another one from earlier in the year.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN21X2ZA


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    #48
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 33,105 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    These only become "rights" (which didn't even exist 30 years ago) if population gets to vote on them. Which they don't in lots of place.
    Maybe ask yourself why you care so much?
    How exactly does a same sex couple having the ability to marry effect you? Maybe you would be happier moving to Poland?

    For the record I got married to my husband last year. We should be allowed the same entitlements any other couple has. Civil partnerships have a huge number of differences to full marriage equality. There has been a huge shift in Irish attitudes to LGBT people for a country where the Catholic Church still have such a big hold it is extremely heartening to see, hopefully Poland will have the same change.

    The fact that duda won by such a small majority against a candidate who entered the race late, when his party literally controls the media is encouraging


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    #49
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    The Polish people have had Duda for 5 years already, and a slight majority choose him again.
    This is how democracy works.

    Many Polish families have been lifted out of poverty as a result of the government's policies, and, for the first time since the end of communism in 1989, feel there is a party that cares about their needs.
    This is especially true in villages and small towns, where President Duda won an absolute majority of votes in the first round of the election two weeks ago.


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    #50
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,996 ✭✭✭Cordell


    biko wrote: »
    The Polish people have had Duda for 5 years already, and a slight majority choose him again.
    This is how democracy works.
    Yes, this is how it works and how it should work up until that point.
    But he needs to be the president of all people, including those who didn't vote for him, including lgbt people, and he should fight for all of them equally. This is how democracy should work. He is not just an elected representative for a small constituency, he's the president of the whole country.


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    #51
    excludedbin
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭excludedbin


    Hitler also took Germany from being an economic basket case to a powerhouse. Doesn't mean he was laudable or should be defended. Brutalising minority groups simply because they're different and are hated shouldn't be something any reasonable person excuses or defends.

    Weird how the same people who scream and shout about predominantly Muslim countries' treatment of LGBT people are all too happy to defend the same when it's Europeans doing it.


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    #52
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    excludedbin wrote: »
    Weird how the same people who scream and shout about predominantly Muslim countries' treatment of LGBT people are all too happy to defend the same when it's Europeans doing it.

    I know right

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #53
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    do politicians often bring in laws which the people who voted them in find distasteful?


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    #54
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    excludedbin wrote: »
    Hitler also took Germany from being an economic basket case to a powerhouse. Doesn't mean he was laudable or should be defended. Brutalising minority groups simply because they're different and are hated shouldn't be something any reasonable person excuses or defends.

    Weird how the same people who scream and shout about predominantly Muslim countries' treatment of LGBT people are all too happy to defend the same when it's Europeans doing it.

    not being able to adopt a kid or marry is nowhere near being brutally beaten or thrown off buildings, but yes it would be better if the polish people were more inclusive of GLB people.


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    #55
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,996 ✭✭✭Cordell


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    do politicians often bring in laws which the people who voted them in find distasteful?

    In principle, it doesn't matter what you think about the laws, or it only matters when it's time to vote again. This is how representative democracy works, you delegate the law making (among other things) to your elected representative and trust them to act in your best interest, even if it's not immediately apparent that they do so.
    Again, that's in principle :)


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    #56
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    not being able to adopt a kid or marry is nowhere near being brutally beaten or thrown off buildings, but yes it would be better if the polish people were more inclusive of GLB people.

    Ah good man.... trying to backtrack when others celebrate the persecution

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #57
    AndyTheDude
    Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭AndyTheDude


    excludedbin wrote: »
    Weird how the same people who scream and shout about predominantly Muslim countries' treatment of LGBT people are all too happy to defend the same when it's Europeans doing it.

    So you're saying that treatment of homosexual people is the same in Poland as in Muslim countries? You may want to post a few links with homosexuals being beheaded or pushed from rooftops in Poland then. Talk about hysteria... :rolleyes:


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    #58
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 33,105 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    not being able to adopt a kid or marry is nowhere near being brutally beaten or thrown off buildings, but yes it would be better if the polish people were more inclusive of GLB people.
    But not the T right? Feck them...do what you like to them.

    Be happy your not being fecked off buildings LGBT people....there are plenty of recent examples of polish people being badly beaten for being LGBT.


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    not being able to adopt a kid or marry is nowhere near being brutally beaten or thrown off buildings, but yes it would be better if the polish people were more inclusive of GLB people.

    Labelling sex educators as paedophiles and making sure that students don't have a sex education that includes orientation for fear of it making children gay. Increased attacks on gay people, lgbt free zones... Christ, you'll label so much as no biggy... You do realise the Nazis in their early days had very small changes in relation to the rights of Jewish people? Then as time went on, they started to lose their jobs. Had their businesses attacked etc.


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    #60
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    AndyTheDude wrote: »
    So you're saying that treatment of homosexual people is the same in Poland as in Muslim countries? You may want to post a few links with homosexuals being beheaded or pushed from rooftops in Poland then. Talk about hysteria... :rolleyes:

    Thats not what was said at all.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #61
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,427 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    spurious wrote: »
    A Polish friend tonight described it as putting Poland back 40 years.

    Yep. My Polish friends are equally devastated.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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