Polish Presidential election

gmisk

Das Reich wrote: »

Now I understand why EU wants Poland and Hungary to take loads of "refugees", cause they are more tolerant to lgbt policies.

Honestly, people on here never lived in poor country. There are many of other problems to be fixed other than rights to a very minority group. Leave those things to already developed countries and privileged people as they have not many other problems to think about.

Absolutely loopy bizarre logic....well done.
People's rights don't matter because other issues exist...

Das Reich

Das Reich wrote: »

Now I understand why EU wants Poland and Hungary to take loads of "refugees", cause they are more tolerant to lgbt policies.

Honestly, people on here never lived in poor country. There are many of other problems to be fixed other than rights to a very minority group. Leave those things to already developed countries and privileged people as they have not many other problems to think about.

Eh, this is Poland actively targeting gay people. LGBT free zones is an actively regressive policy...

biko

AndyTheDude wrote: »

So you're saying

sid waddell wrote: »

So you're saying

Frankie Machine

gmisk wrote: »

"A more informed perspective"......rrrrright.
Such as?

Such as understanding the history and people of Poland, as well as their everyday lives and concerns; and conversely, not viewing their electoral choices through the comparatively pampered easy lives that we have here.

I think calling LGBT an extreme majority is entirely disingenuous.

Indeed. Was it your haste to go on the attack that led you to directly state the opposite to what I said ?

Whether you like it or not there are a significant amount of people that fall under that umbrella.

Not enough to carry the vote, of course.

Whether either of us like it or not, the Polish people voted as they did.

excludedbin

What you're talking about is tyranny of the majority, not democracy. Any modern democracy has protections for minority groups precisely so the majority can't trample all over them. And yeah, it is easy for you to pontificate from the relative comfort of not being one of the people being effected by the vote.

Frankie Machine

sid waddell wrote: »

Being LGBT constitutes being "an extreme minority" now, apparently?!

And LGBT people should celebrate an anti-LGBT bigot winning?!

Bloody hell.

The Goebbels-like takes you get on here, eh?!

Straight on the attack with a puerile misrepresentation of what I said. And a Nazi reference.

It is a terrific result in the sense that it is definitely a progression from the traditional and still-strong stranglehold of the church, a very strong emphasis still on the traditional family and children in particular, and an overall conservatism.

That's quite a different thing from suggesting that people celebrate the victory of a bigot, which I did not do.

I simply think that it is a total ignorance of Poland and it's people to be petulant about it's democratic decisions on social matters, after relatively few years of EU membership, and less restricted work and travel. And relatively few years of democracy, come to that.

The people voted. Let's see what happens next. We may hear about electoral fraud, who knows ?

Cordell

I simply think that it is a total ignorance of Poland and it's people to be petulant about it's democratic decisions on social matters

No, we should not be ignorant of democratic* decisions that reinforce autocratic leaders' positions and/or human rights violations when this happens in the EU. When it happens in some ME s.hole there's nothing we can do about it, but we need to keep this sht out of Europe, because it was here before and it wasn't pretty.

*the democratic part is questionable, and that's not by implying voting fraud. The European values involve both democracy and listening to the minority voice.

gmisk

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Such as understanding the history and people of Poland, as well as their everyday lives and concerns; and conversely, not viewing their electoral choices through the comparatively pampered easy lives that we have here.



Indeed. Was it your haste to go on the attack that led you to directly state the opposite to what I said ?



Not enough to carry the vote, of course.

Whether either of us like it or not, the Polish people voted as they did.

I wasn't going on the attack I was simply replying to your post. So chill out.

"Considering the everyday priorities of the vast majority of the Polish people, a more informed perspective should see this as a terrific result for the extreme minority that is the LGBT community in Poland."

So your saying the "extreme minority" as you put it (I definitely wouldn't) of LGBT in Poland should be delighted with Duda getting in again despite the clearly pervasive anti LGBT policies and attitude he extolls....why exactly should they? Would you if you were in their position?

Frankie Machine

Cordell wrote: »

No, we should not be ignorant of democratic* decisions that reinforce autocratic leaders' positions and/or human rights violations when this happens in the EU. When it happens in some ME s.hole there's nothing we can do about it, but we need to keep this sht out of Europe, because it was here before and it wasn't pretty.

*the democratic part is questionable, and that's not by implying voting fraud. The European values involve both democracy and listening to the minority voice.

The EU was not blind to the realities of Polish society when it allowed it into the club.

I have little patience for the idea that because people get a load of money thrown at them, that they just roll over and become what their 'betters' tell them they must be.

There's an interesting view about this by a Polish journalist based in Germany, on a German TV panel show. Have to go out now, but will try to find the link late and post it up.

In the meantime, not being too conversant with it, I've looked up the Wiki page on Polish LGBT rights. It's far from theocratic, I'd say.

Can't link it because I'm a new poster.

Interested to hear from anyone who can refute anything there... ?

suicide_circus

best of luck to the lgbt peeps of poland, your struggle for rights is delayed but only delayed, tiocfaidh do la

edit: why cant boards handle a fada?

Frankie Machine

gmisk wrote: »

I wasn't going on the attack I was simply replying to your post. So chill out.

How can you 'simply' reply to it when you can't even simply read it properly ?

I think calling LGBT an extreme majority is entirely disingenuous.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114017939&postcount=87

Whereas I said quite the opposite.

It's the kind of mistake people make in haste.

"Considering the everyday priorities of the vast majority of the Polish people, a more informed perspective should see this as a terrific result for the extreme minority that is the LGBT community in Poland."

So your saying the "extreme minority" as you put it (I definitely wouldn't) of LGBT in Poland should be delighted with Duda getting in again despite the clearly pervasive anti LGBT policies and attitude he extolls....why exactly should they? Would you if you were in their position?

I always know people are going to get it wrong when they start with 'So you're saying... '


But anyway, no. That's far from what I am saying.

I've already answered the other poster who decided to misconstrued me on that very issue.

I do think there is a lot to be said for reading a thread through.

Frankie Machine

suicide_circus wrote: »

best of luck to the lgbt peeps of poland, your struggle for rights is delayed but only delayed, tiocfaidh do la

edit: why cant boards handle a fada?

Ctrl + Alt

gmisk

Frankie Machine wrote: »

The EU was not blind to the realities of Polish society when it allowed it into the club.

I have little patience for the idea that because people get a load of money thrown at them, that they just roll over and become what their 'betters' tell them they must be.

There's an interesting view about this by a Polish journalist based in Germany, on a German TV panel show. Have to go out now, but will try to find the link late and post it up.

In the meantime, not being too conversant with it, I've looked up the Wiki page on Polish LGBT rights. It's far from theocratic, I'd say.

Can't link it because I'm a new poster.

Interested to hear from anyone who can refute anything there... ?

Being far from theocratic....you mean being run by the priests/church? It's not exactly a high bar imo. There is no need for the insults I clearly meant minority not majority in that initial post no need to be so condescending.

I had a quick look at the wiki. It's not exactly a bed of roses.....when the opening paragraph has the below. You think LGBT people shouldn't have these protections?

No protections for health services, hate crimes and hate speech exist, however. In 2018, the Supreme Court ruled that it is illegal to deny goods and services on the basis of sexual orientation. However, the Constitutional Tribunal ruled that the provision of Polish Petty Offence Code, which made it illegal to deny goods and services without "a just cause", was unconstitutional.

Rather than looking at a wiki page I would check out some of the stories of assault, harassment etc against LGBT in Poland it only seems to be growing recently. I think this result will increase these to a higher degree.
Would you be happy for you or someone you know being subjected to instances like these just for simply existing?

Cordell

Frankie Machine wrote: »

The EU was not blind to the realities of Polish society when it allowed it into the club.

I have little patience for the idea that because people get a load of money thrown at them, that they just roll over and become what their 'betters' tell them they must be.

There's an interesting view about this by a Polish journalist based in Germany, on a German TV panel show. Have to go out now, but will try to find the link late and post it up.

In the meantime, not being too conversant with it, I've looked up the Wiki page on Polish LGBT rights. It's far from theocratic, I'd say.

Can't link it because I'm a new poster.

Interested to hear from anyone who can refute anything there... ?

No, no one thinks Poland will go full saudi and behead gay people, but if it's going to go Russia style then it's bad enough and not compatible with European values. And it's heading that way with those LGBT free zones.

Annasopra

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Straight on the attack with a puerile misrepresentation of what I said. And a Nazi reference.

It is a terrific result in the sense that it is definitely a progression from the traditional and still-strong stranglehold of the church, a very strong emphasis still on the traditional family and children in particular, and an overall conservatism.

That's quite a different thing from suggesting that people celebrate the victory of a bigot, which I did not do.

I simply think that it is a total ignorance of Poland and it's people to be petulant about it's democratic decisions on social matters, after relatively few years of EU membership, and less restricted work and travel. And relatively few years of democracy, come to that.

The people voted. Let's see what happens next. We may hear about electoral fraud, who knows ?

Your logic is bizarre. You suggest lgbt people should be delighted that someone who is homophobic, supports and prursues homophobic policies got elected. Very weird conclusions to jump to.

suicide_circus

No cultural relativism pass for Poland!

never_mind

Some very scary opinions being shared here; I thought Ireland had come a long way and it's such a shame people still think like this. Supporting right-wing nutters is not something to be proud of.

suicide_circus

never_mind wrote: »

Some very scary opinions being shared here; I thought Ireland had come a long way and it's such a shame people still think like this. Supporting right-wing nutters is not something to be proud of.

Ireland joined the EU in 1973 and brought in civil unions in 2015

Going by those figures Poland can expect to have civil union by 2046

4068ac1elhodqr

People bang on about LBGT rights, however when you compare a couple of countries in a future (2050 expected scenario), you have to ask which state will actually be far kinder, or take a more liberal view to these folks:

Poland 0.2% Muslim (due to strict migration, along with the V4 group)
Sweden 20% Muslim (open doors and generous welfare)

By 2050 even most conserative folks from the RCC might become more liberal towards these such minorities, others will likely hold steadfast their views.

gmisk

never_mind wrote: »

Some very scary opinions being shared here; I thought Ireland had come a long way and it's such a shame people still think like this. Supporting right-wing nutters is not something to be proud of.

I agree.....

Thankfully I hope (and think) people online are not always representative of those you tend to meet in real life, Twitter etc is clearly flooded with bot accounts. The anonymity let's some people vent I suppose.

I like to think Ireland especially is an extremely decent and accepting place for the most part, despite some extreme elements.

Limpy

Keeping the pension age down was a smart move from Duda. He also oversaw some generous social welfare reforms that won him lots of votes from families.

strandroad

Frankie Machine wrote: »

It is a terrific result in the sense that it is definitely a progression from the traditional and still-strong stranglehold of the church, a very strong emphasis still on the traditional family and children in particular, and an overall conservatism.

But it's not a progression, that's the point. LGBT free zones and the new "anti propaganda" legislation are all new and regressive. The legislation if introduced can interpret gatherings and support groups as LGBT promotion and penalise them. Rights are being taken away.

Kintarō Hattori

biko wrote: »

The Polish people have had Duda for 5 years already, and a slight majority choose him again.
This is how democracy works.

Many Polish families have been lifted out of poverty as a result of the government's policies, and, for the first time since the end of communism in 1989, feel there is a party that cares about their needs.
This is especially true in villages and small towns, where President Duda won an absolute majority of votes in the first round of the election two weeks ago.

Honestly Biko, what's that all about? You sound like a member of the party.

I'm in my early 40s, my partner is Polish and I have a good few friends who are Polish- all around the same age. People who are reasonably well educated, have lived and worked outside the country are appalled by the PiS Party and Duda. There is a slow erosion of democracy, look at what they are doing to the courts, have done to journalism. They refuse to engage in debates they don't control, they've increased child benefit to a level that is similar to that of Ireland- yet their average rate of take home pay is far lower.

The party has and is trying to 'buy' a portion of the population with populist measures such as increased benefits, anti-gay propaganda, anti-immigration talk and more. It is a worrying time for what was once a very promising young democracy.

Richard Hillman

sameoldname wrote: »

Can we take back the €12.4 billion the rest of us in the EU give them every year? I'm sure their government will be willing to give that up so they can make gay people feel a little bit less welcome in their own country.

Their country, their rules.

Is the EU imperialism or an economic partnership?

Limpy

Many polish families are returning home from abroad. If the next president promise's to Keep the social policies in place he will have a good chance of winning.

Let's congratulate the victor, its democracy.

Limpy

Limpy wrote: »

Many polish families are returning home from abroad. If the next president promise's to Keep the social policies in place he will have a good chance of winning.

Let's congratulate the victor, its democracy.

And those of us with human decency don't tend to admire incredibly regressive parties. There's a fair few posters here that would have been praising Hitler back in the day.

Mr. Karate

Deleted User wrote: »

And those of us with human decency don't tend to admire incredibly regressive parties. There's a fair few posters here that would have been praising Hitler back in the day.

That doesn't stop many people on here from admiring Socialism and that is regressive.

Cordell

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Their country, their rules.

Is the EU imperialism or an economic partnership?

It's much more than an economic partnership, and it was that way when they joined. It's not EU and Them, they are part of the EU, they joined this union voluntarily, they were not colonized or conquered by the EU or any of this nonsense.

osarusan

Was talking to a Polish neighbouring couple today about this. They said he's a populist who, more than anything, will leave you with more money in your pocket than the opposition, and that is enough to make people vote for him in spite of some other policies. There are not enough Poles who have the money to sacrifice money for principles.

A bit like the US I suppose, and everywhere to some degree. As long as somebody ends up with less money disappearing in taxes, there's a lot they can forgive or ignore, as long as it is somebody else's hardship.

Limpy

osarusan wrote: »

Was talking to a Polish neighbouring couple today about this. They said he's a populist who, more than anything, will leave you with more money in your pocket than the opposition, and that is enough to make people vote for him in spite of some other policies. There are not enough Poles who have the money to sacrifice money for principles.

A bit like the US I suppose, and everywhere to some degree. As long as somebody ends up with less money disappearing in taxes, there's a lot they can forgive or ignore.

Go to eastern Poland and you will see why they chose Duda. If there's a recession which is likely, then next election will be about money to.

People have no problem with LGBT, but they don't want it being thought in schools. That's why conservative Duda is popular in the East,. And with the elders.