Polish Presidential election

Mr. Karate

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Just the Western World. The Visegrad are proving that there is still pockets of sanity in the world.

So you think it's a good aim to attempt to ostracize LGBTQ people?

Gradius

gmisk wrote: »

"Obvious of your words" genuinely no idea what you are trying to say sorry.

You still have managed to avoid answering the question I have asked twice, do you think sex ed should include the fact LGBT people exist?

I'll spell it out for you.

You state that as long as X happens, you don't really care about Y.

Therefore your standards are sub-par.

As for whether I think certain things should be explained as existing, of course I support that. But here's the rub, as aforesaid in another thread...

Flat-earthers exist. Of that, there is no question.

The beliefs of flat-earthers and the implications of supporting those beliefs through mandated education for children, however, are a different ball game altogether.

gmisk

Gradius wrote: »

I'll spell it out for you.

You state that as long as X happens, you don't really care about Y.

Therefore your standards are sub-par.

As for whether I think certain things should be explained as existing, of course I support that. But here's the rub, as aforesaid in another thread...

Flat-earthers exist. Of that, there is no question.

The beliefs of flat-earthers and the implications of supporting those beliefs through mandated education for children, however, are a different ball game altogether.

I clearly meant I have no issue with that language being used personally, it would include people who are intersex etc that have periods.

There is clearly no need for the "sub-par" or the "dirt" responses.
Have some manners.

Flat earthers arent exactly relevant with regards sex education
....an utterly bizarre comparison.

splinter65

gmisk wrote: »

If it's worded like that article someone linked "girls women and others who have periods".
I honestly could not care less.

Do you think sex ed should include the fact LGBT people exist?

But only women have periods gmisk and only men ejaculate sperm. You might as well tell the children that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden as tell them anything else.
For people who were very anxious that the children be no longer taught that Jesus rose from the dead on the 3rd day, this is an extraordinary about face, is it not?? At least there’s no science to prove that Jesus didn’t rise from the dead. It’s the most basic biological fact that only a woman can have a baby and that only a man and a woman can produce another human being.
Why on earth do you want to tell downright lies?

gmisk

splinter65 wrote: »

But only women have periods gmisk and only men ejaculate sperm. You might as well tell the children that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden as tell them anything else.
For people who were very anxious that the children be no longer taught that Jesus rose from the dead on the 3rd day, this is an extraordinary about face, is it not?? At least there’s no science to prove that Jesus didn’t rise from the dead. It’s the most basic biological fact that only a woman can have a baby and that only a man and a woman can produce another human being.
Why on earth do you want to tell downright lies?

Downright lies?.....As I already said intersex people do exist....that was an example of why I had no issue with the wording of that doc.

I am well aware when it comes to male and female biology.

Odhinn

Limpy wrote: »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/16/boys-can-have-periods-schoolchildren-taught-latest-victory-transgender/

It being the Telegraph I'd say they are leaving out a number of details. The fact is that a woman that has transitioned to a male identity can have periods and I'd say thats what the whole thing is about.

strandroad

Will you stop with the whataboutery; it's the most vanilla sex ed they have problems with and in the light of Duda's proposed family values legislation any LGBT content or support at all can be banned from schools. Gay or confused, with a **** family and need support? Tough, you're a threat to society, sort yourself out. Gay teen and bullied in school? Tough, they are only upholding traditional values.

splinter65

gmisk wrote: »

Downright lies?.....As I already said intersex people do exist....that was an example of why I had no issue with the wording of that doc.

I am well aware when it comes to male and female biology.

Intersex people make up a tiny tiny minority of our humankind and are not denied in general. I’m glad your acknowledging basic human biology and hope that you’ll agree that suggesting that children be taught that biology can be ignored for any reason is not only ridiculous but potentially damaging and harmful.

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

It being the Telegraph I'd say they are leaving out a number of details. The fact is that a woman that has transitioned to a male identity can have periods and I'd say thats what the whole thing is about.

Yes she has periods because she is a woman who has chosen to live as a man. She is not a man. Men don’t menstruate.

strandroad

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Actually, I neither said nor suggested any such thing.

I was referring to the result by comparison with what could have been hoped for a few short years ago.

But your assumption is factually incorrect. 10 years ago Poland was ruled by the Civic Platform, the closest equivalent here is probably Fine Gael (with all its sins) of the noughties: hardly running on a progressive ticket but certainly liberal enough. There was no systemic persecution apart from Church influence and if Poland stayed on that course, it would probably be 10 or 15 years behind Ireland in granting liberties but would get there eventually.

Instead, Poland is now run by the equivalent of DUP campaigning on anti-LGBT ticket and introducing oppressive legislation to revoke rights to support, gather and educate. It's not even freezing its progress, it's going backwards.

Frankie Machine

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Honestly Biko, what's that all about? You sound like a member of the party.

I'm in my early 40s, my partner is Polish and I have a good few friends who are Polish- all around the same age. People who are reasonably well educated, have lived and worked outside the country are appalled by the PiS Party and Duda. There is a slow erosion of democracy, look at what they are doing to the courts, have done to journalism. They refuse to engage in debates they don't control, they've increased child benefit to a level that is similar to that of Ireland- yet their average rate of take home pay is far lower.

The party has and is trying to 'buy' a portion of the population with populist measures such as increased benefits, anti-gay propaganda, anti-immigration talk and more. It is a worrying time for what was once a very promising young democracy.

That is playing on something that is there already, in an extremely (by our standards) homogenous and conservative society.

PiS, and they are a horrible shower, they didn't maufacture it out of thin air.

It is worrying though, a country with amazing potential.

Frankie Machine

Cordell wrote: »

It's much more than an economic partnership, and it was that way when they joined. It's not EU and Them, they are part of the EU, they joined this union voluntarily, they were not colonized or conquered by the EU or any of this nonsense.

They were invited voluntarily too.

Here's a clip that I referenced earlier, a Polish journalist giving a Polish perspective on German tv.

Even the German commentator acknowledges the perception of 'colonialism'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIk8MViSUvo

Dyr

excludedbin wrote: »

What "scientific facts"? Intersex people exist and it's not for you to tell them what they are. Have some decency and not force your beliefs about someone's identity onto them - that is, after all, what you lot are objecting to, isn't it?


They could start going the route of Russia, banning LGBT """propaganda""", allowing the police to turn a blind eye to them being beaten and murdered. Like I said, the Nazis did not come into power saying they were going to gas the Jews but that is what they ended up doing, nonetheless. So long as Poland remains a member of the EU, I doubt they'd get that far (or be allowed to) but that doesn't mean they can't do a lot of harm, short of that.

You keep saying it and I keep correcting you, the nazis couldnt have come into power saying that they were going to gas the jews because the nazis didnt know they were going to gas the jews until 1942, they did however make it very clear that they were going purge jews from Germany from the very start

So do you reckon Poland is going to go the way of Russia in the next four years and have the state turn a blind eye to the murder and assault of gay people? On a scale of inevitable to ludicrously unlikely where would you put it?

What exactly has this nascent Hitler inflicted on the LGBTQ population of Poland over his last term? What is he going to inflict over his next term?

It must be fairly grim, because he's a right wrong 'un according to Twitter.

excludedbin

splinter65 wrote: »

I suppose you’d never understand unless you’d ever lived and suffered the misery of a socialist regime as many who voted in Poland this weekend have.
Pampered cosseted and thoroughly spoilt Irish voters recoil at the notion of a conservative state while they continue to build towards what they laughably consider a socialist utopia here.
I see a democratic election result is only acceptable when voters vote the right way,
These people had no choice for so long. Now they have a choice we are tut tuting at the choice they made.
Some posters even suggest that their share of the EU money pot be conditional on them being forced to return to socialism, just with the hard left being in charge instead of Soviet Russia. Oh Lord.

Some of us are old enough to remember a time when homosexuality was outlawed here. Pampered, cosseted, and spoiled right wingers who as long as they get what they want, will damn everyone who isn't them to misery and brutality.

I'll damn well "tut tut" over bigotry being openly voted for. I don't give two damns what you or any other person who's okay with that think of me, frankly.

biko

Polish voter's map

Dyr

excludedbin wrote: »

Some of us are old enough to remember a time when homosexuality was outlawed here. Pampered, cosseted, and spoiled right wingers who as long as they get what they want, will damn everyone who isn't them to misery and brutality.

I'll damn well "tut tut" over bigotry being openly voted for. I don't give two damns what you or any other person who's okay with that think of me, frankly.

I'm old enough to remember, I dont remember any gay people actually being charged under that law though

It's good thats its gone though, and its good that gay people have the right to marry.

But anyway, in your own time, can you recount the dastardly transgressions against gay people that this fella has signed into law? Or the ones he intends to?

Limpy

excludedbin wrote: »

Some of us are old enough to remember a time when homosexuality was outlawed here. Pampered, cosseted, and spoiled right wingers who as long as they get what they want, will damn everyone who isn't them to misery and brutality.

I'll damn well "tut tut" over bigotry being openly voted for. I don't give two damns what you or any other person who's okay with that think of me, frankly.

Tut Tut aka accuse people of being anti tranny ect. The majority of Polish voters disagree with your messages. Come back in 5 years when Pis take on the next candidate (and win).

suicide_circus

biko wrote: »

Polish voter's map

a picture paints a thousand words

8kczg9v0swrydm

As conservative as Duda seems to the Irish public, in reality he is only mildly right of center. Sure, he won't introduce gay marriage and rightly so, because the Poles do not want it by a massive margin (I think it's around the 70% mark). Yet he is weak on getting rid of abortion (failed to blanket ban it during his current term in office, even though PIS had the chance). Also, his party is extremely pro-Israel which is weird, given what goes on in Gaza and so on.

Bosak was a heck of a more interesting candidate. This man is young, up for a fight and conservative to the bone. Stuff he was saying was absolutely badass. He got around 7% of the total vote (this time around ).

Poland is an awesome country. Along with Hungary, these states are the last bastions of sanity in Europe. It is sad to see Poland going liberal - I hope something will turn that trend.

Niech Zyje Polska!

AndyTheDude

Came back from work, read through all the 16 pages...

People arguing here whether a man is a woman and whether men can have periods... in a thread about elections.

I really hope that Poland and the rest of EE countries won't be following Western countries on their trip to insanity.

Duda won. Trzaskowski fortunately lost. Krzysztof Bosak was a much better candidate than them two anyway.

Limpy

Regarding the election, I was surprised it was that tight. I thought Duda would of won More comfortably.

AndyTheDude

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Andy, to what would you attribute the Polish resistance to the LGBT movement ?

Is it religion or something else ?

Since this was (I think) the closest result in thirty-odd years, do you think Poland is becoming more 'liberal', and is it certainly more since accession in 2005 ?

Society, I mean. Not presidential winners.

I think it's for the very reason of being "a movement". We don't like things being forced on us, we don't like that at all.

Then there's a cultural aspect to it all as well: back in my days (I emigrated 20 years ago and haven't set my foot back there in 15 years so things might have changed) all windows had net curtains in them. You just don't look into other people's private lives if you know what mean. There's this Polish saying: "don't tell anyone what happens at home". And here we have some being ostentatious with their sexuality on gay parades...

Obviously religion plays some part in it all too, especially in the east and among older population, but it's a much smaller part than many think.

Then there's Polish educational system with countless hours of teaching about Polish heroism throughout centuries, millions of victims, endless battles for sovereignty... I somehow cannot see LGBT lessons being thrown into this mix. Not that I want any children to be taught that either.

Is Poland becoming more liberal? Maybe. I hope not though. Let Poland be just what it is, Poland.

kitkatman

It was a privilege to work in Southern Poland for a few years managing an Irish controlled business. Yes, southern Poland is very Christian conservative, they have pride in their religion and culture and the illuminated graveyards at night in the small villages say much about the way they honour their forefathers.

During my time in the country, I was asked to act as an independent scrutineer at one of the local municipal elections. No funny business, and 90 % of the votes in the district went to what the Irish Times liberals would call right and far right parties and candidates. The candidates were the salt of the earth and reflected the society the constituents wished to live in, a christian conservative one.

In truth, what is now Poland, is a relatively new territory, reconstructed after WW2: surrendered by the western allies for nearly 50 years to exist under the Russian thumb, and now enjoying freedom.

From my experience of Poland, the Poles want to be a white Christian society, not any diluted version of Christianity to suit the likes of the LGBT lobbies. The prevailing view is that LBGT is an abnormal lifestyle and this belief system follows throughout Eastern Europe.

All the international media wanted PIS defeated, they were cheerleaders for the Woke culture and LBGT lark, and now that they lost, expect this lobby to try and pressure Poland via the EU.

Hopefully, PIS, now continuing in control of the two top political positions, will put in place conservative judges akin to the USA and halt any anti conservative decisions, and set up a judicial hierarchy which places Christian Conservatism first and Liberalism and its bedfellows second.
Dada's triumph is a super success for right leaning conservatism and a much needed slap in the face for the liberals.

Limpy

kitkatman wrote: »

It was a privilege to work in Southern Poland for a few years managing an Irish controlled business. Yes, southern Poland is very Christian conservative, they have pride in their religion and culture and the illuminated graveyards at night in the small villages say much about the way they honour their forefathers.

During my time in the country, I was asked to act as an independent scrutineer at one of the local municipal elections. No funny business, and 90 % of the votes in the district went to what the Irish Times liberals would call right and far right parties and candidates. The candidates were the salt of the earth and reflected the society the constituents wished to live in, a christian conservative one.

In truth, what is now Poland, is a relatively new territory, reconstructed after WW2: surrendered by the western allies for nearly 50 years to exist under the Russian thumb, and now enjoying freedom.

From my experience of Poland, the Poles want to be a white Christian society, not any diluted version of Christianity to suit the likes of the LGBT lobbies. The prevailing view is that LBGT is an abnormal lifestyle and this belief system follows throughout Eastern Europe.

All the international media wanted PIS defeated, they were cheerleaders for the Woke culture and LBGT lark, and now that they lost, expect this lobby to try and pressure Poland via the EU.

Hopefully, PIS, now continuing in control of the two top political positions, will put in place conservative judges akin to the USA and halt any anti conservative decisions, and set up a judicial hierarchy which places Christian Conservatism first and Liberalism and its bedfellows second.
Dada's triumph is a super success for right leaning conservatism and a much needed slap in the face for the liberals.

What about the social policies of Pis. They seem very generous compared to previous year's. People i spoke to were very happy about this. I worry though that a very generous social welfare system will be a magnet for welfare immigrants from undesirable countries, what can Pis do about that?

Bonniedog

Limpy wrote: »

What about the social policies of Pis. They seem very generous compared to previous year's. People i spoke to were very happy about this. I worry though that a very generous social welfare system will be a magnet for welfare immigrants from undesirable countries, what can Pis do about that?

There will be no mass immigration into Poland of such people.

Frankie Machine

AndyTheDude wrote: »

I think it's for the very reason of being "a movement". We don't like things being forced on us, we don't like that at all.

Then there's a cultural aspect to it all as well: back in my days (I emigrated 20 years ago and haven't set my foot back there in 15 years so things might have changed) all windows had net curtains in them. You just don't look into other people's private lives if you know what mean. There's this Polish saying: "don't tell anyone what happens at home". And here we have some being ostentatious with their sexuality on gay parades...

Obviously religion plays some part in it all too, especially in the east and among older population, but it's a much smaller part than many think.

Then there's Polish educational system with countless hours of teaching about Polish heroism throughout centuries, millions of victims, endless battles for sovereignty... I somehow cannot see LGBT lessons being thrown into this mix. Not that I want any children to be taught that either.

Is Poland becoming more liberal? Maybe. I hope not though. Let Poland be just what it is, Poland.

Thanks for taking the time.

I've been going there very regularly for ~15 years and recognise a lot of what
you say there.

riffmongous

AndyTheDude wrote: »

Let Poland be just what it is, Poland.

Just be what you are, what a beautiful message.

CiniO

I had a quick glance through those 18 pages, and decided to share my opinion (as Polish national who spent good bit of time on boards in the last 10 years).

I was born in 1982 in Poland and first set my foot in Ireland in 2004, and lived in Ireland permanently between 2007 and 2018, and sadly I'm back in Poland since 2019 (mostly due to family reasons).

I'm not interested at all in politics and never was.

Still - in 2018, before I left I managed to vote for Michael D, as I thought he was a good representative for the country, and considering that in Ireland president doesn't really have much influence on how country is being goverened, I thought choosing the one who would represent country the best will be the right choice.

Here now in Poland though, my obvious choice was Duda. (Even it's against what most posters suggest was the best choice)
Why Duda then?

Well before 1st round of elections at the end of June, I was told by my trusted family member who is well interested in politics, that pretty much only Duda and Trzaskowski have chances of making it to the second round. Therefore I didn't even bother finding out who was the best candidate, and how good of a president they could have been. I didn't even bother to vote then. And indeed my advisor was right as those 2 candidates made it to the second round.

And in the secound round, it was pretty much all clear. Trzaskowski vs Duda. It couldn't be Trzaskowski for me, so it had to be Duda.
Trzaskowki's background afaik is from PO party, which was running the country between 2007 and 2015. And my opinion is that it was probably the worst possible government ever. Over those 8 years they didn't do anything useful, they didn't react adequatly to political and economical situation around the world. They didn't introcude any law reforms which would help Poland in any possible way. That's definitely not the kind of governement I would like to have running the country.

Luckily since 2015 they are not in charge anymore, and that's pretty much very good thing.

Not so good thing though is that only feasible alternative to PO was PiS party, which is still very far from ideal, but still much better than PO.

Choosing president from PO party while PiS has majority in government would be totally insane, as he would be able to sucessfully impede PiS running the country, by using president's veto right on most crucial reforms.
IMO that would do absolutely no good to anyone.
It's better to let PiS run the country on it's own, than having constant fight there, effectively stopping any crucial reforms and government being able to react adequately to dynamic situation in world's politics and economy.

IMO It's just always better to have one party with clear programme (even not the best one) to run the country, instead of having government where opposite political forces fight each other, and instead of running the country, they spend all their resources of fighting about who is to run the country. I've seen it too many times in Poland in the past, as well as in Ireland not so long ago between FG and FF. It's never good IMO.


And about PiS attitude to LGBT and other subjects that seem to be putting Poland in medieval times... well.....
I watched a small fragment of presidential debate in June, and all candidated got a question about their mindset to homosexual marriages, and afair all candidates except one (who is acutally gay) said that they would never allow it.
Only reasons I can think of them all saying that, is this is exactly what Polish people want to hear.
I could bet that if Trzaskowski said he was for homosexual marriages, he wouldn't even make it to the 2nd round of elections. He probably wounld't even get more than few percent of votes....

So probablem with Poland being so hold up in subjects like that, comes not from PiS government, but from opinion of it's own citizens.

I find if very sad and frustrating that country I'm from is so backwards... But it's the fault of people living here, not the PiS government....

Frankie Machine

CiniO wrote: »

I had a quick glance through those 18 pages, and decided to share my opinion (as Polish national who spent good bit of time on boards in the last 10 years).

I was born in 1982 in Poland and first set my foot in Ireland in 2004, and lived in Ireland permanently between 2007 and 2018, and sadly I'm back in Poland since 2019 (mostly due to family reasons).

I'm not interested at all in politics and never was.

Still - in 2018, before I left I managed to vote for Michael D, as I thought he was a good representative for the country, and considering that in Ireland president doesn't really have much influence on how country is being goverened, I thought choosing the one who would represent country the best will be the right choice.

Here now in Poland though, my obvious choice was Duda. (Even it's against what most posters suggest was the best choice)
Why Duda then?

Well before 1st round of elections at the end of June, I was told by my trusted family member who is well interested in politics, that pretty much only Duda and Trzaskowski have chances of making it to the second round. Therefore I didn't even bother finding out who was the best candidate, and how good of a president they could have been. I didn't even bother to vote then. And indeed my advisor was right as those 2 candidates made it to the second round.

And in the secound round, it was pretty much all clear. Trzaskowski vs Duda. It couldn't be Trzaskowski for me, so it had to be Duda.
Trzaskowki's background afaik is from PO party, which was running the country between 2007 and 2015. And my opinion is that it was probably the worst possible government ever. Over those 8 years they didn't do anything useful, they didn't react adequatly to political and economical situation around the world. They didn't introcude any law reforms which would help Poland in any possible way. That's definitely not the kind of governement I would like to have running the country.

Luckily since 2015 they are not in charge anymore, and that's pretty much very good thing.

Not so good thing though is that only feasible alternative to PO was PiS party, which is still very far from ideal, but still much better than PO.

Choosing president from PO party while PiS has majority in government would be totally insane, as he would be able to sucessfully impede PiS running the country, by using president's veto right on most crucial reforms.
IMO that would do absolutely no good to anyone.
It's better to let PiS run the country on it's own, than having constant fight there, effectively stopping any crucial reforms and government being able to react adequately to dynamic situation in world's politics and economy.

IMO It's just always better to have one party with clear programme (even not the best one) to run the country, instead of having government where opposite political forces fight each other, and instead of running the country, they spend all their resources of fighting about who is to run the country. I've seen it too many times in Poland in the past, as well as in Ireland not so long ago between FG and FF. It's never good IMO.


And about PiS attitude to LGBT and other subjects that seem to be putting Poland in medieval times... well.....
I watched a small fragment of presidential debate in June, and all candidated got a question about their mindset to homosexual marriages, and afair all candidates except one (who is acutally gay) said that they would never allow it.
Only reasons I can think of them all saying that, is this is exactly what Polish people want to hear.
I could bet that if Trzaskowski said he was for homosexual marriages, he wouldn't even make it to the 2nd round of elections. He probably wounld't even get more than few percent of votes....

So probablem with Poland being so hold up in subjects like that, comes not from PiS government, but from opinion of it's own citizens.

I find if very sad and frustrating that country I'm from is so backwards... But it's the fault of people living here, not the PiS government....

Interesting to hear your nuanced perspective, and thanks.

Tokyo

AndyTheDude wrote: »

Came back from work, read through all the 16 pages...

People arguing here whether a man is a woman and whether men can have periods... in a thread about elections.

Mod: Had the same experience just now. Thread is gone wildly off topic and we already have umpteen threads on the topic of transexual identity. Unless you are posting something relevant to the Polish presidential election, I am going to start nuking posts and posters.

@Limpy - don't post in the thread again.