Polish Presidential election

excludedbin

biko wrote: »

I think you're confusing nationalism with racism. Are they the same to you?

If your idea of nationalism is based on the idea that your race is superior to all others then yeah, I'd say that's quite clearly racist.

biko wrote: »

Is Palestinian nationalism bad or good?
Is Ethiopian nationalism bad or good?
Is Kurdish nationalism bad or good?
Is French nationalism bad or good?
Is Polish nationalism bad or good?

Why is self-determination good for some and bad for others?

Because different peoples have different circumstances. Are the French or Polish fighting off brutal oppressors annexing their territory? It's not exactly a complicated concept. Most adults are capable of understanding that different circumstances are judged differently.

Bonniedog wrote: »

Well they were white - or the Irish pink version at least - and they were nationalists.

Post bellum Shinners - not saying you are one - deny that they were nationalists.
Then again one of them also claimed that Bobby Sands died for gay rights!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_nationalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism
Keep pretending you don't understand the difference.

sameoldname

Mr. Karate wrote: »

You and the rest of the Irish want to go extinct don't expect me to save you.

Save me? Save me from what? Do you consider yourself a superhero or something? Is your superpower to greatly exaggerate your own importance to others? It's quite a gift!

biko

excludedbin wrote: »

If your idea of nationalism is based on the idea that your race is superior to all others then yeah, I'd say that's quite clearly racist.

It's your idea. I don't think anyone else here agrees with you.

excludedbin

It's not my idea, it's simply how nationalism is commonly expressed. That many here don't want to acknowledge that isn't really my problem.

Bonniedog

Nationalism is either separatist or expansionary. It has nothing to do with right or left.

Russian nationalism under socialists was expansionary and indeed genocidal. Same applies still to the Chinese Communist Party. Likewise the African socialists in Eritrea and elsewhere who had similar motivations.

BLM separatism under your rubric would therefore have a lot in common with white ethnocentrism. would it not?

OMM 0000

He's very anti-gay.

I always find these anti-gay folks interesting.

Why are they thinking about gay guys? Why do they care what some random men are doing in their bedrooms?

I like women hence I almost never think about gay men. But I think if I was bisexual or in the closet I'd probably be thinking about gay guys and what they do in the bedroom...

So I wonder if these anti-gay guys are just trying to cancel the uncomfortable (unwanted) feelings they have for men...

chocolock

CiniO wrote: »

I agree that Duda is not a good president, but Trzaskowski would be much worse option anyway...

PiS is not a good party for government in Poland, but opposite PO would be even worse.

Maybe in few years, Polish people will be tired of them both, and something new will emerge hopefully.

Don't agree with this. Anybody would have been better than Duda. With nobody in opposition, Kaczyński can do whatever he wants.
Plenty of dodgy decisions made overnight to come over the next few years.

excludedbin

Bonniedog wrote: »

Nationalism is either separatist or expansionary. It has nothing to do with right or left.

Russian nationalism under socialists was expansionary and indeed genocidal. Same applies still to the Chinese Communist Party. Likewise the African socialists in Eritrea and elsewhere who had similar motivations.

BLM separatism under your rubric would therefore have a lot in common with white ethnocentrism. would it not?

No, nationalism is not only separatist or expansionary, it can absolutely be about maintaining one's own territory. Considering you appear not to understand that "white nationalism" is a distinct concept in politics, I don't believe there's anything to be gained from engaging with you further about this. Either you're talking about something you don't understand or you're looking for a reaction. I'm guessing it's the latter so look elsewhere.

CiniO

OMM 0000 wrote: »

He's very anti-gay.

I always find these anti-gay folks interesting.

Why are they thinking about gay guys? Why do they care what some random men are doing in their bedrooms?

I like women hence I almost never think about gay men. But I think if I was bisexual or in the closet I'd probably be thinking about gay guys and what they do in the bedroom...

So I wonder if these anti-gay guys are just trying to cancel the uncomfortable (unwanted) feelings they have for men...

By "he" you mean Duda ?
Trzaskowski is anti-gay too.

In fact vast majority of candidates (I think 10 out of 11) was very anti-gay and they publically said during the presidential debate that they would definitely vote against allowing gay marriages in Poland.

Fact is though, that it was just their strategy, as seems like that's exactly what Polish people wanted to hear.

Unless social perception of gay people and LGBT movement change in Poland, until then all candidates for President or for parliament or for local authrities will be always agaist it to match electoral opinion.

We don't need to change government, but we need to change social perception among Polish citizens.

CiniO

chocolock wrote: »

Don't agree with this. Anybody would have been better than Duda. With nobody in opposition, Kaczyński can do whatever he wants.
Plenty of dodgy decisions made overnight to come over the next few years.

I don't think so, and I would be surprised if there were any dodgy decisions leading effectively to dictatorship like it was mentioned here before.

On the other hand, if Trzaskowski was elected, he would do everything he could to make PiS government fail, by blocking all necessery administrative and economical decisions and reforms, which I believe PiS will fulfill rightly with Duda.

JoChervil

Mr. Karate wrote: »

There is nothing modern about bringing us back into Socialism and there is nothing modern thinking about unlimited immigration of a religious group stuck in the bronze age that wants to undo the Left's so societal progress.

Well, so compare Democrats and Republicans in USA. Which one is more left wing and modern and which one is more conservative and backward?

JoChervil

CiniO wrote: »

I saved this post, and set a reminder 4 years from now so we can return to it and talk again.
We'll see if your tragic predictions will come true...
I personally don't belive they will.

But already this election was not real and honest with public TV being a propaganda tube for Duda. And you can't even protest about it or any other things to High Court about it because they created a special section in High Court, which confirm if election was valid. And guess what judges will be making this final call...

JoChervil

biko wrote: »

Is Palestinian nationalism bad or good?
Is Ethiopian nationalism bad or good?
Is Kurdish nationalism bad or good?
Is French nationalism bad or good?
Is Polish nationalism bad or good?

Why is self-determination good for some and bad for others?

So I can tell you that according to currently ruling party in Poland, only they are real Poles, while opposition is a second "worse" sort.

Kaczynski even said few days before election that Trzaskowski doesn't have Polish heart. Is such nationalism excluding a big part of a nation good to you?

ExMachina1000

I was watching a program recently on tv. It was about a food market in Ghana. There were lines of food stalls and a few of the stalls were ran by Chinese people.

The local Ghanaians were telling people not to buy the chicken from the Chinese people. They resented the presence of the Chinese people in their country

JoChervil

CiniO wrote: »

By "he" you mean Duda ?
Trzaskowski is anti-gay too.

In fact vast majority of candidates (I think 10 out of 11) was very anti-gay and they publically said during the presidential debate that they would definitely vote against allowing gay marriages in Poland.

Fact is though, that it was just their strategy, as seems like that's exactly what Polish people wanted to hear.

Unless social perception of gay people and LGBT movement change in Poland, until then all candidates for President or for parliament or for local authrities will be always agaist it to match electoral opinion.

We don't need to change government, but we need to change social perception among Polish citizens.

So as a Polish citizen I can tell you that I am not anty-guy. One of my good friend is gay and I shared flat with him for two years. All my family and friends are not anty-guys.

JoChervil

CiniO wrote: »

I don't think so, and I would be surprised if there were any dodgy decisions leading effectively to dictatorship like it was mentioned here before.

On the other hand, if Trzaskowski was elected, he would do everything he could to make PiS government fail, by blocking all necessery administrative and economical decisions and reforms, which I believe PiS will fulfill rightly with Duda.

But PiS already did a lot of dodgy decisions, so what will stop them now?

Dyr

excludedbin wrote: »

It's not my idea, it's simply how nationalism is commonly expressed. That many here don't want to acknowledge that isn't really my problem.

Nationalism is commonly expressed as nationalism, not supremacist views. You might be confusing it with imperialism or internationalism, neither of which care much for the concept of a peoples right to self determination

Anyway, whenever you're ready to respon there....

I'm old enough to remember, I dont remember any gay people actually being charged under that law though

It's good thats its gone though, and its good that gay people have the right to marry.

But anyway, in your own time, can you recount the dastardly transgressions against gay people that this fella has signed into law? Or the ones he intends to?

biko

Bambi wrote: »

Nationalism is commonly expressed as nationalism, not supremacist views. You might be confusing it with imperialism or internationalism, neither of which care much for the concept of a peoples right to self determination

There are forces that are trying to remould and redefine regular words to give them bad connotations.
They want us to feel bad about our country and heritage, and accept their definition of history.

Love of one's home and history isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing.

biko

biko wrote: »

There are forces that are trying to remould and redefine regular words to give them bad connotations.
They want us to feel bad about our country and heritage, and accept their definition of history.

Love of one's home and history isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing.

It's easier to tear something down, if people are divided.

Which is why nationalism is slated as being negative. You can't be proud of your culture, history, nation, if you're white or western unless your pride is related to a minority group's efforts.

Nationalism is fine if you're a minority in that nation or a minority talking about their original nation. It's fine if you're Black or Asian. But if you're white it's about superiority.. if you're western, it's about colonialism or imperialism...

biko

JoChervil wrote: »

Kaczynski even said few days before election that Trzaskowski doesn't have Polish heart. Is such nationalism excluding a big part of a nation good to you?

Jaroslaw Kaczynski, leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party, which is backing President Andrzej Duda in Sunday’s election runoff, on Thursday accused Trzaskowski of lacking patriotism for his stance on restitution.

“How could anyone with even a bit of Polish soul, of Polish heart... say something like this? Trzaskowski clearly doesn’t have this as he thinks this is a matter to discuss,” Kaczynski said in an interview for Catholic broadcaster TV Trwam.

The Jewish restitution referred to is when the Nazis took properties from Jews.
These properties then was taken by the Communists after the war.
Now they are state-owned.

About 4,000 formerly Warsaw-owned properties or plots of land in the capital have already been transferred back into private hands since 1989.

However, the communists' so-called Bierut Decree of 1945 remains in legal force.

And to be clear - I am for restitution to the Jews whose properties were stolen.

Wibbs

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I was watching a program recently on tv. It was about a food market in Ghana. There were lines of food stalls and a few of the stalls were ran by Chinese people.

The local Ghanaians were telling people not to buy the chicken from the Chinese people. They resented the presence of the Chinese people in their country

To be fair to the Ghanaians and others in Africa, they're well versed in the hazards, horrors and major negatives and asset stripping of colonialism and many see recent Chinese forays into that continent in the same light as previous European forays, minus the obvious military angle. And I would agree with them.

weldoninhio

Cordell wrote: »

I never said that. In fact is quite the opposite, Ireland is a desirable country to live in so this is why it attracts all sort of people. Poland is in no danger to become multicultural because no one wants to go there, not even you, since you let some minor inconvenience to stop you, you can learn the language just as they can learn English or German or whatever country they choose to go to.
Also, you couldn't spend money because you were enjoying the Irish level of income.

My friend went there. There are quite a few Irish, US and English Ex-pats living there, who have to follow the polish way of living. Because Poland won’t lay down to “isms”

Frankie Machine

excludedbin wrote: »

But they weren't "white nationalists", which was the point you were responding to. "White nationalism" is a distinct political term with its own distinct meaning that isn't applicable to them. Being white and being a nationalist doesn't automatically make one a "white nationalist" but supporting a white ethnostate does, which is the point the person you were responding to.

Considering the times, it's a bit rich to suggest that the leaders of the revolution in 1916 had anything else in mind other than a white ethnostate.

So in truth, they were de facto white nationalists, and it's not believable that many of them would have fought and died for anything else.

Certainly Tom Clarke, considered by many to be the man most responsible for the Rising, had very unambiguous ideas about that from the period of his living in the US.

ExMachina1000

Wibbs wrote: »

To be fair to the Ghanaians and others in Africa, they're well versed in the hazards, horrors and major negatives and asset stripping of colonialism and many see recent Chinese forays into that continent in the same light as previous European forays, minus the obvious military angle. And I would agree with them.

As would I. No benefit to the natives having people from the far side of the planet moving in to compete and possibly undercut. The Ghanaians should solve the problem before it becomes a problem. They probably did.
A strong people who are proud of their country and it's history

CiniO

JoChervil wrote: »

So as a Polish citizen I can tell you that I am not anty-guy. One of my good friend is gay and I shared flat with him for two years. All my family and friends are not anty-guys.

And so do I being Polish citizen I'm not anti-gay.

But few of us, doesn't make the whole.

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

As would I. No benefit to the natives having people from the far side of the planet moving in to compete and possibly undercut. The Ghanaians should solve the problem before it becomes a problem. They probably did.
A strong people who are proud of their country and it's history

And I'd imagine the opposition to Chinese products is related to China basically buying up Ghana and creating an immense debt based relationship. Rather than being related to maintaining bloodlines or whatever you guys are subscribing to these days.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/11/21/chinas-2-billion-ghana-deal-fears-over-debt-influence-environment.html