Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

Grueller

Does anyone here run a flying herd? I am giving it serious consideration. I work off farm part time, the boss is busy caring for my ill mother. AI is just another job that adds another layer of work to a already fairly pressed schedule.

I am thinking of letting out a limousin bull (2.3% calving difficulty). I will keep these calves to 18 months or so where they should be worth €900 to €1000. The plan would be to sell these and buy back high quality replacement heifers from the proceeds. I bought a batch last Autumn for €1450 per head. These are milking very well and I would be willing to deal year on year with this particular farmer.
I know that it prevents me having a closed herd and also lads won't be selling their very top stock but the cast offs of a recorded, top 10% herd should be as good as most lads will breed.
Any obvious holes in my plan?

Mooooo

TB breakdown would be the biggest risk. You'd prob want to have a decent vaccination programme in place also. Also using limo would be longer gestation and a higher risk of a calving going wrong, but you have experience of those sort of stock so would prob be ok.
Part of the reason I'll be fix time ai is to cut down the time spent with heifers at breeding.
Alternative with the cows would be see if the ai man can call at set times and have the cows there ready and waiting in an area easily managed by one person. Txt direct to him whether they are there or not and how many.

tanko

Sugarbowl wrote: »

Picked up the AI straw off the ground after serving a cow this evening. The straw was empty - as in the small colored straw was missing. What does that suggest to ye?

You mean the sheath was empty and didn't have the empty straw in it?
If the sheath wasn't tightened down properly on the gun the straw might have stayed in the gun.
Did you Ai the cow yourself?

tismesoitis

Sugarbowl wrote: »

Picked up the AI straw off the ground after serving a cow this evening. The straw was empty - as in the small colored straw was missing. What does that suggest to ye?

Straw was still in the gun. Happens often enoigh!

Finty Lemon

Grueller wrote: »

Does anyone here run a flying herd? I am giving it serious consideration. I work off farm part time, the boss is busy caring for my ill mother. AI is just another job that adds another layer of work to a already fairly pressed schedule.

I am thinking of letting out a limousin bull (2.3% calving difficulty). I will keep these calves to 18 months or so where they should be worth €900 to €1000. The plan would be to sell these and buy back high quality replacement heifers from the proceeds. I bought a batch last Autumn for €1450 per head. These are milking very well and I would be willing to deal year on year with this particular farmer.
I know that it prevents me having a closed herd and also lads won't be selling their very top stock but the cast offs of a recorded, top 10% herd should be as good as most lads will breed.
Any obvious holes in my plan?

A flying herd is the first step toward exiting milk.

Siamsa Sessions

Newbie question here: is there much difference between tail paint and scratch cards for heat detection in heifers?

Thanks

Sugarbowl

tanko wrote: »

You mean the sheath was empty and didn't have the empty straw in it?
If the sheath wasn't tightened down properly on the gun the straw might have stayed in the gun.
Did you Ai the cow yourself?

No I had a fella in but just picking up his glove after to throw it away I saw the small aI straw missing. Just wondering what had happened. Thanks for the answers!

Gillespy

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Newbie question here: is there much difference between tail paint and scratch cards for heat detection in heifers?

Thanks

I was recommended not to use tail paint on heifers as they arent heavy enough to remove the paint off each other. Although I found the opposite when I did use it, they would do too much messing around disturbing the paint on too many of them to get any idea who was bulling.

GrasstoMilk

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Newbie question here: is there much difference between tail paint and scratch cards for heat detection in heifers?

Thanks

Scratch cards here, find them very good
There's no questioning about how long they're bulling or if on or not
The first round of ai is always the easiest, generally

Wildsurfer

Finty Lemon wrote: »

A flying herd is the first step toward exiting milk.

A harsh comment but not without some truth. Does anyone know someone operating a flying herd successfully over a number of years? I think it would take a very diligent person to have a big ball of cash on hand every spring to buy in replacement stock, and you would end up keeping cows that should be moved on due to health/production issues.

timple23

Grueller wrote: »

Does anyone here run a flying herd? I am giving it serious consideration. I work off farm part time, the boss is busy caring for my ill mother. AI is just another job that adds another layer of work to a already fairly pressed schedule.

I am thinking of letting out a limousin bull (2.3% calving difficulty). I will keep these calves to 18 months or so where they should be worth €900 to €1000. The plan would be to sell these and buy back high quality replacement heifers from the proceeds. I bought a batch last Autumn for €1450 per head. These are milking very well and I would be willing to deal year on year with this particular farmer.
I know that it prevents me having a closed herd and also lads won't be selling their very top stock but the cast offs of a recorded, top 10% herd should be as good as most lads will breed.
Any obvious holes in my plan?

There is a woman down in Waterford that posts a lot of stuff on instagram that runs a similar system.

jd_12345

Wildsurfer wrote: »

A harsh comment but not without some truth. Does anyone know someone operating a flying herd successfully over a number of years? I think it would take a very diligent person to have a big ball of cash on hand every spring to buy in replacement stock, and you would end up keeping cows that should be moved on due to health/production issues.

Very fair point, If sexed was a bit cheaper it would be a game changer imo. Use a good shot of sexed here and the lack of choice of bulls is a MAJOR hindrance. Eurogene are the only company with a good selection of bulls and we can't use it here due to technicians, etc.
For the average 100 cow herd that realisteically needs 25 heifers each year, if you're buying good stock that are worth buying you'd be talking about paying €1600 on average this year which is €40000. It ain't easy to have that sort of cash lying around.... especially at the start of the year.

Finty Lemon

Wildsurfer wrote: »

A harsh comment but not without some truth. Does anyone know someone operating a flying herd successfully over a number of years? I think it would take a very diligent person to have a big ball of cash on hand every spring to buy in replacement stock, and you would end up keeping cows that should be moved on due to health/production issues.

A bit harsh alright, but meant in a constructive way. A flying herd relying on the open market would not be good.
Better to partner up with one large herd that would sell surpluses every year.
Also, I would think letting out a Limousin bull will ruin calving pattern over time. 4 or 5 weeks of beef AI still needed.

jd_12345

Grueller wrote: »

Does anyone here run a flying herd? I am giving it serious consideration. I work off farm part time, the boss is busy caring for my ill mother. AI is just another job that adds another layer of work to a already fairly pressed schedule.

I am thinking of letting out a limousin bull (2.3% calving difficulty). I will keep these calves to 18 months or so where they should be worth €900 to €1000. The plan would be to sell these and buy back high quality replacement heifers from the proceeds. I bought a batch last Autumn for €1450 per head. These are milking very well and I would be willing to deal year on year with this particular farmer.
I know that it prevents me having a closed herd and also lads won't be selling their very top stock but the cast offs of a recorded, top 10% herd should be as good as most lads will breed.
Any obvious holes in my plan?

Imo better plan is to sell all your calves and buy more than enough friesian heifer calves. If you're consistently buying off the same fella it'll work out well! Can rear them how you want then. If you're keeping cattle to that age you'll have the same work as you would with beef cattle as dairy stock

Grueller

Wildsurfer wrote: »

A harsh comment but not without some truth. Does anyone know someone operating a flying herd successfully over a number of years? I think it would take a very diligent person to have a big ball of cash on hand every spring to buy in replacement stock, and you would end up keeping cows that should be moved on due to health/production issues.

First cousin of my father's did it for 40 years. A former/current occasional poster here that is a top operator also does it in Waterford.
If you have 60 forward stores to sell in Autumn and want to but back 10 heifers the price difference will be maybe €4000-5000 from 10 of those to 10 in calf heifers and even possibly in calf to sexed semen.
To finty lemon, trust me I am not going anywhere from dairying. The question is though why would I risk a part time job that pays €40k+ to make time to look after replacements?

jd_12345

Grueller wrote: »

First cousin of my father's did it for 40 years. A former/current occasional poster here that is a top operator also does it in Waterford.
If you have 60 forward stores to sell in Autumn and want to but back 10 heifers the price difference will be maybe €4000-5000 from 10 of those to 10 in calf heifers and even possibly in calf to sexed semen.
To finty lemon, trust me I am not going anywhere from dairying. The question is though why would I risk a part time job that pays €40k+ to make time to look after replacements?

Grueller I think what you want is to keep up stock numbers without the workload. There is much less work in 10 dairy heifers than in 60 stores. Fair enough if you want to keep higher stock numbers (and resulting cashflow!!!) but if the cattle are on rented land it makes absolutely no sense not rearing your own and keeping stores.
We like keeping our calves here too and do similar to yourself- sell in July around 470kg anything from €850 to €1000. Our Farm is fragmented and we tried being the heroes with high MP SR, loads of work, racing around the roads with silage and taking what we get for calves but now stock are happier and we have a nice cheque in the summer when we've time to spend it and enjoy it!

Mooooo

If you will be rearing the beef stock, the only saving you'll make will be at breeding really, and depending on bulls to do the cows?
If you have heifers instead of beef stock and do one round of ai on them and leave the bull with them after, and 6 weeks with the cows and bulls for the last 6 weeks you should have enough replacements born every spring. If you have facilities right around the parlour, decent drafting etc the cows shouldn't be much extra work as you'll be seeing them twice a day anyway. Option to synchronise the heifers then if you wish instead of watching em and picking ones out for the first 3 weeks, would just have to make sure to have plenty bull power the time they are due to repeat as one may not do if synchronized as repeats would be close together.
The main benefit of a flying herd imo would be all stock calving down to beef and calves gone out the gap at 3 to 6 weeks, with nothing left to do only manage cows and grass. If you are gonna be raising the calves you will have near on the similar amount of work bar those 6 weeks of breeding. The negatives would outweigh any gains then tbh.

Grueller

Mooooo wrote: »

If you will be rearing the beef stock, the only saving you'll make will be at breeding really, and depending on bulls to do the cows?
If you have heifers instead of beef stock and do one round of ai on them and leave the bull with them after, and 6 weeks with the cows and bulls for the last 6 weeks you should have enough replacements born every spring. If you have facilities right around the parlour, decent drafting etc the cows shouldn't be much extra work as you'll be seeing them twice a day anyway. Option to synchronise the heifers then if you wish instead of watching em and picking ones out for the first 3 weeks, would just have to make sure to have plenty bull power the time they are due to repeat as one may not do if synchronized as repeats would be close together.
The main benefit of a flying herd imo would be all stock calving down to beef and calves gone out the gap at 3 to 6 weeks, with nothing left to do only manage cows and grass. If you are gonna be raising the calves you will have near on the similar amount of work bar those 6 weeks of breeding. The negatives would outweigh any gains then tbh.

Thanks moooo. That is the sort of opinions I am looking for not generalised out of date throw away comments.

At JD12345
I am not on rented ground. I own two out blocks so that is the idea of the beef stock. Going flying herd would leave me only 3 groups of stock, cows, reared calves and stores every summer. That would leave it easy to manage as I lose on average 3 hours a day off farm 5 days a week with the off farm employment.

Finty Lemon

Grueller wrote: »

First cousin of my father's did it for 40 years. A former/current occasional poster here that is a top operator also does it in Waterford.
If you have 60 forward stores to sell in Autumn and want to but back 10 heifers the price difference will be maybe €4000-5000 from 10 of those to 10 in calf heifers and even possibly in calf to sexed semen.
To finty lemon, trust me I am not going anywhere from dairying. The question is though why would I risk a part time job that pays €40k+ to make time to look after replacements?

I think the 60 stores would be more of a risk to a part time job than a batch of heifers. If you go that route would it not be better to offload calves at 3 weeks old? The work in the youngstock is pre weaning, the expense post weaning if you get me. Offload all ASAP and use calves plus cull money to buy heifers.
Truth be told there are a few disaster zone flying herds in my neck of the woods. Still doing it after 30 years ( which doesn't prove success by the way). They buy on the open market, overpay for silky stock and wreck them with a Simmental bull for 'calf price.

Mooooo

Anyone have or use that tailpainter yoke that would reach from the pit of the parlour? Do they last?

Freejin

Ya have one here going into my third year, find it great to be honest. A lot easier and safer than climbing up from the pit for painting. Make sure you use water based paint and it will last

Injuryprone

On the flying herd....
Don't see where all the labour saving is. Apart from checking cows for bulling and holding those back every morning, what else would you be saving? And that's only for a couple of months. And there are plenty of electronic solutions to help in this area nowadays.

Sell all your beef calves before a month old and you'll still have only 3 bunches of animals to manage. Let a bull off with the heifers for a couple of months and let him back to the cows after to clean up. And if you still feel the need to keep a few pretty beef calves, don't see what the problem would be running a few bullocks with your breeding heifers would be

JeffKenna

What I love about Dairy Farming is looking at a cow and thinking back to the generations before her. The offspring of my favourite cow who passed away 20 years ago still carry her name, maybe I'm odd but a flying herd would take away a big joy of farming for me.

whelan2

Daughter went on her bike to a dairy farm that is selling milk from a hut on their farm. €1.50 a litre in a plastic container . There was a queue there. Thry are one of the first farms in southern Ireland with a milk vending machine

whelan2

JeffKenna wrote: »

What I love about Dairy Farming is looking at a cow and thinking back to the generations before her. The offspring of my favourite cow who passed away 20 years ago still carry her name, maybe I'm odd but a flying herd would take away a big joy of farming for me.

If it's only a new herd you wont have that sentimental attachment though. We were at a pedigree suckler farm today young lad bought an in calf heifer. They could say who every animal was by going back generations .

trg

whelan2 wrote: »

Daughter went on her bike to a dairy farm that is selling milk from a hut on their farm. €1.50 a litre in a plastic container . There was a queue there. Thry are one of the first farms in southern Ireland with a milk vending machine

Wholey Cow? Article on the FJ there, fair play to them

whelan2

trg wrote: »

Wholey Cow? Article on the FJ there, fair play to them

I did say if she went out to our milk tank she could get similar milk.... she was impressed with the set up. She also got 1 litre of strawberry milk for 2 euro. They were sold out of chocolate and had no glass bottles left

DukeCaboom

whelan2 wrote: »

I did say if she went out to our milk tank she could get similar milk.... she was impressed with the set up. She also got 1 litre of strawberry milk for 2 euro. They were sold out of chocolate and had no glass bottles left

There's a few shops selling it here. The milk is a meal in itself compared to the water they sell in most shops.

Green&Red

trg wrote: »

Wholey Cow? Article on the FJ there, fair play to them

Fair play is right, they seems to be flying it if their Twitter is anything to go by. Would love to see the set-up costs

straight

jd_12345 wrote: »

Very fair point, If sexed was a bit cheaper it would be a game changer imo. Use a good shot of sexed here and the lack of choice of bulls is a MAJOR hindrance. Eurogene are the only company with a good selection of bulls and we can't use it here due to technicians, etc.
For the average 100 cow herd that realisteically needs 25 heifers each year, if you're buying good stock that are worth buying you'd be talking about paying €1600 on average this year which is €40000. It ain't easy to have that sort of cash lying around.... especially at the start of the year.

Is the average herd really up to 100 cows? 25% is about 10% too high of a replacement rate imo. Flying herds are not for me but sure it's all whatever suits the farmer themselves. These decisions are not always just about the money either, just whatever system you prefer to work yourself. I would say if you have a good source for your replacements like you say it would probably be a better system than just using friesian stock bulls anyway.