Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

straight

green daries wrote: »

100%This what they're doing and This is the plan
But you would have to wonder why all of a sudden lads are looking for milky bulls 🀔

What i always wondered is why any farmer would want more cows and less milk. Never made sense to me. Every cow is a cost between calving, providing a cubicle each, headspace, vaccinations, etc.

green daries

mahoney_j wrote: »

Seen the quite obvious flaws lots of us have been saying are there with breeding purely on ebi .....farmers aren’t thick and can see thru the spin that’s put out there by likes of Brennan etc ,I know some just leave it to Ai man or company to pick there bulls ,majority don’t

It would seem so but some of them around here are so far down the crossbreed /high ebi fresian that it will cause more problems to try adding Back in milk to their herds the idea of basing an index on crossbreed and commercially bred fresian cows is madness and to top it off they heavily weighted it towards fertility and ease of management (that equals a small fat narrow cow ) putting milk into these animals is probably a two generation project
As other poster's have said milky stock may just be valuable over the next couple of years

mahoney_j

green daries wrote: »

It would seem so but some of them around here are so far down the crossbreed /high ebi fresian that it will cause more problems to try adding Back in milk to their herds the idea of basing an index on crossbreed and commercially bred fresian cows is madness and to top it off they heavily weighted it towards fertility and ease of management (that equals a small fat narrow cow ) putting milk into these animals is probably a two generation project
As other poster's have said milky stock may just be valuable over the next couple of years

One bad or uninformed cross can take 2/3 generations to turn back around again .if dero is pulled or most likely seriously reduced along with various other environmental regulations the Tegasc model and ones pushed by various advisors is going to be shown up for what it is .....

Finty Lemon

straight wrote: »

What i always wondered is why any farmer would want more cows and less milk. Never made sense to me. Every cow is a cost between calving, providing a cubicle each, headspace, vaccinations, etc.

Has milk yield per cow not increased substantially in the last 15 years? Protein and fats are way higher now than in the mid 2000s.

GrasstoMilk

blackdog1 wrote: »

Big difference is teagasc and the national paper are not actively attacking your cow type or trying to influence the government on climate advice that affects the stocking rate of your farm. In fact they are doing the opposite, they are nailing there flag to the high ebi mast and trying to throw the higher producing cows under the bus to save their skin because they know if derogation goes ebi is basically finished.

If dero goes good few farmers are in bother
The fact remains cow type has zero to do with profit
There's money to be made at which ever one yiu choose its just down to how you manage it
One system won't work if the cow type is wrong etc

I don't want a high yielding cow, I want one that can do 9% solids at 7000l off silage, nuts and grass

jaymla627

green daries wrote: »

100%This what they're doing and This is the plan
But you would have to wonder why all of a sudden lads are looking for milky bulls ��

Maybe they are getting sick of milking glorified goats, and have copped on you can buy proven international bulls for the same price instead of the ebi lucky dip bag with 15 odd bulls needing to be used to spread the risk of having alot worse goat cows if you use to much of a new hotshot bull

straight

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Has milk yield per cow not increased substantially in the last 15 years? Protein and fats are way higher now than in the mid 2000s.

Whats your point like

older by the day

Hold the bowl there a while lads, when I took over the farm we had "great cows ". Huge amounts of milk. Massive cows with massive udders. Mastitis, lameness, cows going down. Cows so weak, getting caught in cubicles . Calf every two years. You would need a small army to mind them. So if you want to go high yielding tell the co-op to have the ration lorrys ready. Grow some some maize and give up on having spare time. Or you can be happy with the cows he have and not be greedy

mahoney_j

older by the day wrote: »

Hold the bowl there a while lads, when I took over the farm we had "great cows ". Huge amounts of milk. Massive cows with massive udders. Mastitis, lameness, cows going down. Cows so weak, getting caught in cubicles . Calf every two years. You would need a small army to mind them. So if you want to go high yielding tell the co-op to have the ration lorrys ready. Grow some some maize and give up on having spare time. Or you can be happy with the cows he have and not be greedy

Holsteins have moved on quite a bit ,they can still be bred that way if u wish lotsvolume,lots water but u can also breed a cow with balanced production and solids with fertility to booth ,maize silage in comparasion with top quality silage much of a muchness and if feeding with spring grass and into summer needs no balancing with properly managed grass

blackdog1

older by the day wrote: »

Hold the bowl there a while lads, when I took over the farm we had "great cows ". Huge amounts of milk. Massive cows with massive udders. Mastitis, lameness, cows going down. Cows so weak, getting caught in cubicles . Calf every two years. You would need a small army to mind them. So if you want to go high yielding tell the co-op to have the ration lorrys ready. Grow some some maize and give up on having spare time. Or you can be happy with the cows he have and not be greedy

Had the same problems when i came home to this farm 15 years ago. Theyre not there now.. Silage was cut late June and poor quality, fed maize but low protein nut. roadways were terrible and we used to wash cows with a bucket and wet cloth and spread mastitis everywhere and grass was grazed too strong. In Fairness to Teagasc their grass advice is excellent but they have a huge blindside in supplementation. Cows simply have to be fed at certain times when the fed value isn't in the grass or else they go into negative energy. im like mahoney. fed a bale every 2 days last year from may and never had as good results in fat and production.

Finty Lemon

straight wrote: »

Whats your point like

My point is that the quality of the national herd has improved greatly in the last 20 years. Better production, better solids, better health, huge improvement in fertility, lower SCC. Better type too. Much of this has been delivered by breeding.
This talk of glorified goats is overplayed.

Green&Red

mahoney_j wrote: »

Seen the quite obvious flaws lots of us have been saying are there with breeding purely on ebi .....farmers aren’t thick and can see thru the spin that’s put out there by likes of Brennan etc ,I know some just leave it to Ai man or company to pick there bulls ,majority don’t

What are the obvious flaws with EBI?

Green&Red

blackdog1 wrote: »

Had the same problems when i came home to this farm 15 years ago. Theyre not there now.. Silage was cut late June and poor quality, fed maize but low protein nut. roadways were terrible and we used to wash cows with a bucket and wet cloth and spread mastitis everywhere and grass was grazed too strong. In Fairness to Teagasc their grass advice is excellent but they have a huge blindside in supplementation. Cows simply have to be fed at certain times when the fed value isn't in the grass or else they go into negative energy. im like mahoney. fed a bale every 2 days last year from may and never had as good results in fat and production.

What prompted you to feed a bale? I mean what issue were you trying to solve?

green daries

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

If dero goes good few farmers are in bother
The fact remains cow type has zero to do with profit
There's money to be made at which ever one yiu choose its just down to how you manage it
One system won't work if the cow type is wrong etc

I don't want a high yielding cow, I want one that can do 9% solids at 7000l off silage, nuts and grass

Ya those yields are a good yield for any outfit........pipe dream for most crossbreed herds
Not saying you're not achieving it but very very few others are

green daries

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Has milk yield per cow not increased substantially in the last 15 years? Protein and fats are way higher now than in the mid 2000s.

No it hasn't

mahoney_j

Green&Red wrote: »

What are the obvious flaws with EBI?

Over inflated ebi figures with many bulls falling away when heifers hit ground too many changes in how sub indexes are made up making it hard to breed with any confidence ,having to use to many bulls to spread risk thus making it hard to get a consistent herd of cows
To answer your question above re why feed a bale ,simple the cows needed it ,grass is managed to a high degree but not a consistent feed ,has the protein and energy but lacking structural fibre ,cow’s would become v loose in there dung ,acidosis an issue ,butter fats low .like black dog fats and proteins never better despite some saying it would depress proteins and kill my clean outs ,Tegasc tbf are great at grassland management but seriously lacking and one dimensional when it comes to feeding cows ,advice far too general

green daries

older by the day wrote: »

Hold the bowl there a while lads, when I took over the farm we had "great cows ". Huge amounts of milk. Massive cows with massive udders. Mastitis, lameness, cows going down. Cows so weak, getting caught in cubicles . Calf every two years. You would need a small army to mind them. So if you want to go high yielding tell the co-op to have the ration lorrys ready. Grow some some maize and give up on having spare time. Or you can be happy with the cows he have and not be greedy

Well then sorry but you didn't have great cows you had bustards of yokes IMO
Fellas round here knocking 8000 litre average off very easy maintained cows there's a bit extra work to them but we manage and some of us are on really bad ground maybe housed at night until May bit the cows are both hard wearing and mostl trouble free as Jay said proven bulls used properly give proven cows

green daries

Finty Lemon wrote: »

My point is that the quality of the national herd has improved greatly in the last 20 years. Better production, better solids, better health, huge improvement in fertility, lower SCC. Better type too. Much of this has been delivered by breeding.
This talk of glorified goats is overplayed.

Glorified twisty goats ...
Goats would be a decent thing you know what you are getting from a goat

straight

Finty Lemon wrote: »

My point is that the quality of the national herd has improved greatly in the last 20 years. Better production, better solids, better health, huge improvement in fertility, lower SCC. Better type too. Much of this has been delivered by breeding.
This talk of glorified goats is overplayed.

I dunno lad, I'm only a young fella. My co ops average solids are sub 500. New Zealand are x-breeding for years and their average is 350kg ms per cow per year and they're feeding 1 ton on average. All I'm saying is that I've enough trouble with the few I have not to mind having more of them for less milk.

trixi2011

I wouldn't be the biggest fan of the witter everyone is talking about views can find them a bit extrame at times but to be honest I think he makes some very valid points . The vast majority of irish herds are friesian not Xbreed . The national average ms is just a shade over 400 yet these fr cows are 600kgs . Ebi up to the last few years did seem to be working and reducing the size of the national herd and leading to a more efficient cow which is easier to look after and lasting for more lactations. The problems arose when everyone was advised to use predominantly genomic sires. Ireland's milk price is now 100% ms solids based yet everyone seems to be chasing litres .

mahoney_j

trixi2011 wrote: »

I wouldn't be the biggest fan of the witter everyone is talking about views can find them a bit extrame at times but to be honest I think he makes some very valid points . The vast majority of irish herds are friesian not Xbreed . The national average ms is just a shade over 400 yet these fr cows are 600kgs . Ebi up to the last few years did seem to be working and reducing the size of the national herd and leading to a more efficient cow which is easier to look after and lasting for more lactations. The problems arose when everyone was advised to use predominantly genomic sires. Ireland's milk price is now 100% ms solids based yet everyone seems to be chasing litres .

Some fair points but wouldn’t agree about lads chasing litres ,maby % with litres no point having extremes of one over other ,all about balance at end of day were paid on kgms sold ...produce as many as you can as efficiently as you can

straight

Started the second round today. Farm cover 750. Growth: 34. Demand: 60. Weather looks promising at least.

GrasstoMilk

green daries wrote: »

Ya those yields are a good yield for any outfit........pipe dream for most crossbreed herds
Not saying you're not achieving it but very very few others are

Supplied 6300l at 8.42% solids last year
Young herd atm, a bit of culling and maturity we might get there, I'd think it's a reasonable target tbh

GrasstoMilk

straight wrote: »

Started the second round today. Farm cover 750. Growth: 34. Demand: 60. Weather looks promising at least.

You're in a good position there, 160/cow here, have a paddock let off for silage that I'll graze if need be but don't really want to

whelan2

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

You're in a good position there, 160/cow here, have a paddock let off for silage that I'll graze if need be but don't really want to

Did you get rain today?

jaymla627

Finty Lemon wrote: »

My point is that the quality of the national herd has improved greatly in the last 20 years. Better production, better solids, better health, huge improvement in fertility, lower SCC. Better type too. Much of this has been delivered by breeding.
This talk of glorified goats is overplayed.

Health and type arent something you could associate with high ebi stock for ffs....

GrasstoMilk

whelan2 wrote: »

Did you get rain today?

Nothing worth talking about, a bit of mist
Hoping for some on Tuesday

Injuryprone

I'll be interested to hear how growth rebounds for fellas using protected urea during this dry spell. I hadn't great results from KAN+S May 2019 when we had a similar enough spell

Finty Lemon

green daries wrote: »

Glorified twisty goats ...
Goats would be a decent thing you know what you are getting from a goat

I did a bit of checking.
In 2013 the average in Dairygold was 340kg milk solids. This would have been 95% Holstein cows I would imagine.
The co-op average has risen by over 70kg milk solids since then. Protein has gone up from 3.4 to 3.59%
The average supplier now is doing as much as the top 10% back then which is quite remarkable. So todays 'goats' are much better than the 'stars' of 10 years ago. But sure thats only facts, opinions are more interesting.

Finty Lemon

jaymla627 wrote: »

Health and type arent something you could associate with high ebi stock for ffs....

SCC is better, cow longevity is better, fertility is better.
Type is functionally better too.