Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117854065#Comment_117854065

I remember during the late 80's early 90's seeing tractor & trailer loads of fresh cauliflower, broccoli, carrots and turnips dumped into livestock yards for feed cause prices had collapsed.

whelan2

Carrots were a great price last year. Oh draws carrots and spuds for a local farmer

Gawddawggonnit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117852228#Comment_117852228

Do you honestly think that putting all into Derogation is going to make farmers conduct themselves??

Do you honestly think that planners will be legally responsible for farmers firing slurry onto flooded ground on Xmas day??

Gawddawggonnit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117852250#Comment_117852250

The issue is with horsing out too much slurry and N on the MP…as everyone here knows bloody well.

Gawddawggonnit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117852367#Comment_117852367

You seem like a reasonable man Straight…but are you honestly saying that farmers should continue to poison the environment so that food riots can be avoided across the likes of the Maghreb? Seriously?

Gawddawggonnit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117853905#Comment_117853905

Jack Nolan/Dept of Ag could be good buyers for carrots shortly :).

Unfortunately there’s no intervention available for horticulture. Other farming enterprises seem to be almost entitled to it.

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117854967#Comment_117854967

Your not too far wrong ……but this is the road we were led down …load on the cows get the money flowing ….worry about sheds and slurry tanks down the road etc etc ….there’s lots of is farming responsibly but we’re just pissing up a hill …lads with tanks full in December out spreading all winter laughing at the gobshites who have dropped huge sums on sheds ,tanks etc

we are where we are now because of that …our advisory body led us there and now there trying to hammer us with things like these crazy organic n bands

yosemitesam1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848492#Comment_117848492

They dont seem to be in a rush to specialise compared to here. Seems to have a much broader view than would have been the norm in college here.

Maybe it's just her though. There might be a bit lost in translation but happy I took her on.

yosemitesam1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855031#Comment_117855031

There is a massive sense of entitlement that surrounds meat and dairy production that markets should just appear out of thin air to absorb increased production. It's everyones fault but the farmers when they don’t.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117854999#Comment_117854999

All I'm saying is that I forsee food shortages and it's the poor that will suffer hardest. My little farm isn't going to fix it one way or the other. Ya, the MP stocking rates that are doing alot of damage but teagasc and IFJ say no. The man that won the sustainability award is stocked at 3 cows per HA. The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117854967#Comment_117854967

Partly right there dawg the problem is more complex than that but the big drive to expand at all costs and feck the the tanks and being compliant is what got lads where we are it was greed it was pent up expansion (there was no natural growth in the dairy business for a long time) it was stupidity and recklessness in equal measure there was also a lack of personal responsibility. Slurry is not an issue ony farm I'm more tan compliant with the current regs . fertilizer usage is the biggest part of the pollution problem in my view as far a nitrification is concerned there's just way too much being spread especially at the shoulders of the year

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117854933#Comment_117854933

If you currently need a derogation you have to have enough storage for the winter period if you don't no planner will submit your plan it won't make everyone compliant but it will help the department have no issues with the derogation farms they know what the story is with them

On the other parts of it if you break the rules you looe 100 percent of your single payment if you're caught spreading slurry double the single payment and a fine for pollution do it five times in Court in public........ there would be some tanks built then so there would the carrot didn't work time for a big stick while the rest of us are still capable of earning a living farming

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855197#Comment_117855197

There’s no issue with high MP stocking rates if you’re bringing slurry back to silage and support ground

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855667#Comment_117855667

I'm afraid that's the elephant in the room ...

Theres a serious problem with it it's not what people want to hear but it's a problem and the department see it as a problem I've a feeling that this could be regionalized and the south of the country could take a hammering wouldn't be good us but it's my gut feeling on it

Say my name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855800#Comment_117855800

Very easy test the ground to see if it's true. Inspectors already soil sample ground where slurry and dung is "exported" to. It'll just carry through to outside blocks of farmers own land to see what's what.

Aren't they saying they're targeting paper farming outside blocks.

Farmers here can be their own worst enemy at times. What'll be will be.

We have our reps speaking for us..

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855863#Comment_117855863

Indeed but what test will be used for nitrogen in it's many forms. It can't be done as far as I'm aware are there inspectors actually sampling ground or is it the new regs that the importer has to have a nutrient management plan which includes sampling interesting to hear that they are they don't really even react to reporting by concerned citizens around here 😬

Say my name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855800#Comment_117855800

The North and northwest seemingly shouldn't think they might get away Scott free. It's there the phosphorus runs off the ground. Weren't the Netherlands pulled up on that issue.

North and northwest for phosphorus run off. Southeast for nitrate leaching.

Soil management is a big factor though. Lady's Island lake and tacumshin lake are the two highest for nitrates in the country. Not a bovine nor pig near any of them. Soil management. And with the first one probably a village there.

You need the carbon to hold the nitrogen.

Say my name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855888#Comment_117855888

You can soil test for nitrogen. No problem.

Sure isn't dawg tested that way.

Last soil sample here had a nitrates test.

It's a tricky one though. You sample for nitrates on its own. It tells you nothing. You need a carbon test as well and then work out the carbon to nitrogen ratio to see how stable that nitrogen is in the ground.

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855800#Comment_117855800

The dept had a webinar this evening on the current NAP proposals

they clearly said there is no issue with with higher stocking rates if slurry is brought back to silage ground

teagasc had done research to show that

but I agree, the issue definitely is nutrients not being equally distributed

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855902#Comment_117855902

Ya definitely would think that they won't be let away Scot Free as you call it p and k the problem on those soils. And the intensive lads will be in the same position up there but having holidayed over the years (too many years I'm getting old) in the West north west Ive noticed a remarkable reduction in intensive farming practices Even on some of the best land in the country also the EPA is pointing in our direction

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855950#Comment_117855950

Interesting to hear something slightly positive from teagasc the EPA doesn't agree but hopefully teagasc will carry some weight as well In the discussion now how much of the nitrogen leaching is attributable to tillage is the next question and also how much is naturally occurring

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855936#Comment_117855936

Ok how do you test for the nitrogen I spread three weeks ago

green daries

And I suppose the other elephant in the room that no one outside farming mentions the run off from human waste

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855985#Comment_117855985

30% of N in waterways in southeast is from tillage according to jack nolan

green daries

Thank gtm Wonder if they were asked would they call it on human waste pollution

Gawddawggonnit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855950#Comment_117855950

All posters, Mahoney,Straight, GreenDaries etc, have finally agreed that the vast majority of the problem is from the MP. The bedrock issue is that if the stocking rate of the MP is reduced, many farmers will have to reduce numbers..

Ive been shouting about the issue on here for the best part of a decade. I even approached Teagasc to offer them help on Mss reduced N rates etc, and they just laughed. Things have moved on but farmers and farming hasn’t. It’s fairly obvious that the Dept couldn’t give 2 flying fcuks and it’ll be business as usual. Maybe it’s just all bluster to save the Dero? I dunno.

Jack touched on social lisence. This is very very important. Have ye noticed that farmers are now the publics kicking boys? The abusé that farmers are getting is disgraceful. Farming is blamed for all the ills like climate change etc. That annoys me no end…how can farming can be blamed for what the burning of fossil fuels has caused? I think that when you ignore and deny that environmental damage caused by N & P in the face of all data, then you’re playing into the hands of the farmer bashing gang. Farming needs to have the public on board…posting pics of a butterfly and claiming to be the savior of the planet isn’t going to cut it. People have seen through the greenwash. Jack did warn of this.

Btw, I’m not against expansion etc but if you need to mine the environment to expand, it’s not sustainable.

Gawddawggonnit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855094#Comment_117855094

I was thinking that the difference would be that they’re more focused on the soil microbiome and feeding the soil in a balanced way. I for one now see the benefit of mixed farming.

Your point about the sense of entitlement is spot on. It drives me crazy when farmers state that nobody wants organic. There’s a huge market for organic right on their doorstep but there’s no route to market. Conventional farmers using the ‘nobody wants it’ line are doing the industry a huge disservice.

GrasstoMilk

What’s the difference between a guy stocked at 2.7 on mp with all his stock and slurry there vs a guy stocked at 3.5-4 on one block but 2.7 over all and putting all slurry on support ground?

none

Teagasc had a slide that showed that clearly, that’s all I’m saying

maybe you’ve lived in France too long dawg but we don’t all have ranches of 1000s of acres

if I’m, and many more like me are kerbed to 170 kg of N per ha it’s game over. I simply won’t be farming

the issue is high sr on one block and putting all slurry there too

slurry spreading during closed period

and N leeching from bare stubble ground

doing something for those 3 will go a long way on rectifying water issues

Pinsnbushings

Is there data or research out there to say what is an acceptable mp stocking rate? What is the average mp stocking rate across the country? I'd say in the region of 3-3.5 cows/ha but may be wrong.

It's clear the direction of travel is in favour of those lucky enough to have big blocks of ground together, as I've known for years land is the new quota.

On a different but I suppose slightly related note, I'm looking at starting a new cubicle shed in the next couple of months, was humming and hawing but these new rules would mean I wouldn't be within an ass roar of being compliant.

Have lads that may have built recently reccomendations for mats, cubicles, troughs, scrapers etc.?

Say my name

You've always made your point known dawg re dairy in Ireland.

And there's no hiding your bias for tillage. Weren't you brought up that way. You make your living from it still. I know you have a dairy but sure you posted yourself that's only for money.

Last year a manager from a large tillage farm with dept connections brought Jack and a few others onto the farm to see what I was doing re char and foliar. After me they were going to another dairy with mss.

Was it a mistake I made inviting them in and especially with covid. After that foliar and mss were mentioned by Jack as ways farmers could reduce their N. Make no mistake I believe it's nothing to do with environmental considerations but everything to do with hitting targets on spreadsheets. The talk from the dept on high came to go after dairy.

Meanwhile the waters with the highest nitrates will still continue to have the highest nitrates. Not a dam thing done about it. Why because they're in the tillage areas. And why because they've feck all carbon in their soil. N just leaches. That manager from that tillage operation if his techniques were implemented there'd be less the issue with N leaching. But it's still considered too out there and expensive and people are playing for money. The dept won't press on it because it's being drummed that it's a soil issue not management.

If everyone was treated fairly with the focus on achieving results on waterways I doubt anybody would have an issue but alas no. More storage is being asked for and no harm in that it's money well spent.